23:48:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
23:48:27 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/10/15-epub-irc
23:48:37 <dauwhe> rrsagent: start meeting
23:48:37 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', dauwhe.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
23:48:57 <dauwhe> rrsagent, help
23:50:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #epub
23:50:09 <dauwhe> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telecon
23:50:24 <dauwhe> Date: 2020-10-15
23:51:19 <dauwhe> RRSAgent: make logs public
23:51:56 <wendyreid> present+
23:56:14 <jyoshii> jyoshii has joined #epub
23:59:09 <MasakazuKitahara> MasakazuKitahara has joined #epub
23:59:25 <Yanni> Yanni has joined #epub
23:59:34 <LauraB__> LauraB__ has joined #epub
23:59:41 <MattChan> MattChan has joined #epub
00:00:09 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #epub
00:00:15 <toshiakikoike> present+
00:00:17 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
00:00:19 <MattChan> present+
00:00:26 <LauraB__> present+
00:01:06 <zhengxu> present+
00:01:14 <Teenya> Teenya has joined #epub
00:01:28 <Teenya> present+
00:02:23 <dauwhe> Chairs: Wendy Reid, Shinya Takami
00:02:25 <marisa> marisa has joined #epub
00:02:30 <duga> duga has joined #epub
00:02:37 <dauwhe> scribe+ dauwhe
00:02:38 <duga> present+
00:03:00 <marisa> present+
00:03:36 <Yanni> present+
00:04:03 <dauwhe> wendyreid: if you are able to scribe, please let me know.
00:04:12 <dauwhe> ... we need to equitably share the work
00:04:25 <dauwhe> ... anyone new this week?
00:04:28 <ShinyaTakami> ShinyaTakami has joined #epub
00:04:46 <dauwhe> ... we've talked a lot about media types
00:04:51 <shiestyle> present+
00:04:54 <dauwhe> ... we'll talk about a few other media types today
00:05:05 <BenSchroeter> BenSchroeter has joined #epub
00:05:09 <dauwhe> ... it would be good to have for criteria for adding new media types
00:05:14 <dauwhe> ... we've done this accidentally
00:05:23 <BenSchroeter> present+
00:05:28 <dauwhe> ... we want broad support across all major browsers
00:05:33 <jyoshii> present+
00:05:36 <dauwhe> ... we want a strong use case from the publishing industry
00:06:04 <dauwhe> ... we mentioned this in one of Matt's pull requests
00:06:20 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publ-epub-revision/pull/1345
00:06:48 <wendyreid> q?
00:06:50 <dauwhe> ... what should the criteria be for adding new media types? What are our requirements?
00:06:59 <dauwhe> q+
00:07:08 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:07:11 <wendyreid> scribe+
00:07:12 <zhengxu> q+
00:07:33 <wendyreid> dauwhe: It's straightforward to say a media-type is supported by all major browsers and operating systems
00:07:41 <wendyreid> ... and the promise of being supported by all major reading systems
00:07:59 <wendyreid> ... query RS developers from around the world on their thoughts
00:08:01 <zhengxu> q-
00:08:09 <wendyreid> ... universality and support is important
00:08:43 <dauwhe> zhengxu: I was going to ask... what is the benefit for a core media type?
00:08:50 <dauwhe> ... I raised the question in epubcheck
00:09:02 <dauwhe> ... making it easy to load something in OPF
00:09:07 <dauwhe> q+
00:09:18 <dauwhe> ... what is purpose of core media type?
00:09:30 <shiestyle> q+
00:09:32 <dauwhe> ... if a RS is using a browser engine, the media type is decided by browser.
00:09:34 <dauwhe> q-
00:09:40 <dauwhe> ... browsers don't define that
00:09:54 <dauwhe> ... but some reading systems are not based on web browsers
00:10:04 <dauwhe> ... I don't quite understand if this is necessary for us to define
00:10:08 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
00:10:30 <dauwhe> shiestyle: (speaking in Japanese)
00:11:45 <dauwhe> toshiakikoike: (speaking in Japanese)
00:12:10 <dauwhe> shiestyle: I asked about RS in Japan
00:12:28 <dauwhe> ... toshiakikoike said, their RS converts EPUB files in advance to deliver browser view
00:12:38 <dauwhe> ... adding core media types is not a big issue
00:13:11 <duga> Yes
00:13:14 <dauwhe> wendyreid: as long as we meet the criteria that it is supported (or almost supported) by all major browsers and operating systems
00:13:44 <dauwhe> ... we'll talk about WebP, which is supported everywhere but versions of MacOS before the most recent
00:14:01 <dauwhe> ... they have to be quite well supported at the time
00:14:05 <dauwhe> ... we will have to test, of course
00:14:18 <dauwhe> ... reading systems would need to commit to support, and we'd see that in testing
00:14:43 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publ-epub-revision/issues/1344
00:14:45 <dauwhe> wendyreid: the two issues... one is logged a couple days ago
00:14:50 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publ-epub-revision/issues/1299
00:15:07 <dauwhe> Topic: 1344, WebP as CMT
00:15:16 <dauwhe> wendyreid: caniuse looks good
00:15:43 <dauwhe> ... supported in Big Sur, which is out soon (?)
00:15:56 <dauwhe> ... the argument is a more efficient image format
00:16:10 <dauwhe> ... DeMarque feels it significantly reduces the overall size of their EPUBs
00:16:13 <dauwhe> ... which is good
00:16:49 <dauwhe> ... the other possible CMT is VTT,
00:17:04 <dauwhe> ... used for video captions
00:17:08 <dauwhe> q?
00:17:15 <marisa> q+
00:17:38 <shiestyle> q+
00:17:38 <wendyreid> ack marisa
00:17:46 <dauwhe> marisa: if we had web vtt as a core type
00:17:55 <dauwhe> wendyreid: it's text vtt
00:17:56 <duga> q+
00:18:04 <dauwhe> marisa: does it accompany the video?
00:18:17 <dauwhe> wendyreid: the mystery is how we refer to videos; we don't have a CMT for video
00:18:31 <dauwhe> ... it would accompany whatever video format you were using
00:18:57 <dauwhe> q+ to distinguish core media types from EPUB content documents
00:19:00 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
00:19:08 <dauwhe> shiestyle: (speaks in Japanese)
00:20:28 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:20:34 <zhengxu> q+
00:20:39 <dauwhe> ... I discussed both of these with Mr. Koike... we don't know what impact they would have on RSs
00:20:48 <zhengxu> q-
00:20:51 <dauwhe> duga: Matt seems to think a fallback isn't needed in this case?
00:21:02 <dauwhe> ... since VTT is itself a fallback for the track element?
00:21:20 <dauwhe> ... do we really need to do anything other than clarifying the manifest section
00:21:25 <dauwhe> wendyreid: that's a task on it's own
00:21:31 <dauwhe> duga: that's why we have matt :)
00:21:42 <dauwhe> ... you don't need a fallback for a foreign resource in this case
00:21:52 <dauwhe> ... so it might make it confusing to have it as a CMT
00:21:58 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:21:58 <Zakim> dauwhe, you wanted to distinguish core media types from EPUB content documents
00:22:20 <wendyreid> dauwhe: This is the perfect opportunity to mention that CMT doesn't mean that something can be a spine item
00:22:35 <wendyreid> ... Content Docs can be spine items, but CMTs mean they don't need a fallback
00:22:51 <wendyreid> ... a RS would be assured of finding something to display
00:23:04 <duga> q+
00:23:11 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:23:22 <dauwhe> duga: that's a good point, but you could put vtt in an object tag :)
00:23:34 <dauwhe> ... the real problem is, if we required a fallback for VTT, there isn't one.
00:23:51 <dauwhe> ... so you couldn't use VTT. There's not a format that would work instead. You can't replace it with HTML.
00:24:02 <dauwhe> ... I'm assuming it has time-based features.
00:24:21 <dauwhe> ... if it does require a fallback, we should make it a CMT. If it doesn't require a fallback, there's no point.
00:24:25 <dauwhe> q?
00:24:29 <shiestyle> q+
00:24:30 <zhengxu> q+
00:24:33 <dauwhe> duga: thumbs up to WebP
00:24:37 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
00:24:56 <dauwhe> shiestyle: how about adding 2nd-priority CMT
00:25:09 <dauwhe> ... maybe JPEG/PNG is already popular
00:25:23 <dauwhe> ... webp and opus are new technologies, maybe there should be fallbacks
00:25:24 <duga> q+
00:25:29 <wendyreid> ack zhengxu
00:25:53 <dauwhe> zhengxu: If a CMT can be a spine item...
00:26:10 <dauwhe> ... what is the core media type we wanted to define to have benefit for end user
00:26:24 <dauwhe> ... we can use it as content doc without fallback
00:26:56 <dauwhe> ... if CMT does not have this purpose, even some mimetype can be used as CMT but can't be put in spine item
00:27:07 <dauwhe> ... how do we use this scope?
00:27:18 <dauwhe> ... like web browser we have caniuse
00:27:27 <dauwhe> ... if we have something like caniuse for reading systems
00:28:02 <dauwhe> ... but if some reading system can't support webp, it's a reading system problem
00:28:27 <dauwhe> ... we need to draw a line for CMT to ask creator to add fallback
00:28:35 <dauwhe> ... it's still a question for me
00:28:39 <dauwhe> wendyreid: it's a fair question
00:28:45 <dauwhe> ... having tests will help
00:29:19 <dauwhe> ... as we discussed earlier, do we throw away the idea of CMT, and the consensus was we didn't want to do that.
00:29:37 <dauwhe> ... this puts a lot of pressure on content creators, and leads to interop problems.
00:29:41 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:29:52 <dauwhe> duga: re: fallbacks for webp and opus
00:30:02 <dauwhe> ... defeats the whole purpose, which is to make your EPUB smaller
00:30:19 <dauwhe> ... so that's why you want to extend CMTs
00:30:24 <dauwhe> ... a size benefit
00:30:45 <dauwhe> ... we can add to our list of reasons: Is there a benefit you cannot achieve with existing core media types
00:30:58 <dauwhe> ... the answer for both WebP and Opus is that they are smaller.
00:31:07 <dauwhe> ... we have opened things up, it was called FXL
00:31:35 <dauwhe> ... we have insane hacks that downloads Times New Roman so that it can match fruit company's rendering
00:31:52 <dauwhe> ... free-form content makes it hard to support lots of things
00:32:06 <dauwhe> ... we also don't have enough people to make caniuse for epub work
00:32:07 <dauwhe> q?
00:32:09 <zhengxu> q+
00:32:09 <dauwhe> q+
00:32:14 <wendyreid> ack zhengxu
00:32:31 <dauwhe> zhengxu: caniuse for RS... I know it would take a while
00:32:36 <marisa> q+
00:32:38 <dauwhe> ... they have more content creators
00:32:45 <dauwhe> ... we have smaller scope of user
00:33:01 <dauwhe> ... say user wanted to use some type of... do whatever you want
00:33:12 <dauwhe> ... use any font, but it might break FXL... sure
00:33:29 <dauwhe> ... if we can define certain type... with web browsers people only test in 3 browsers
00:33:35 <dauwhe> ... for reading systems it's the same
00:33:47 <dauwhe> ... we have too many types of reading systems
00:34:04 <dauwhe> ... as RS creator, if we cannot support it, we can put our support status in caniuse
00:34:15 <dauwhe> ... it
00:34:26 <dauwhe> ... it's kindof more use-case driven
00:34:31 <dauwhe> ... if we draw a line here,
00:34:39 <dauwhe> ... how can create a fallback for it?
00:34:49 <dauwhe> ... this fallback blocks creator from using this feature
00:35:09 <dauwhe> ... it's not possible to create fallback
00:35:16 <dauwhe> ... I think purpose of creator and spec and RS
00:35:26 <dauwhe> ... expand it, let it be more easy to use
00:35:42 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:36:01 <wendyreid> dauwhe: I would just remind everyone we tried to do caniuse for EPUB and it failed epically
00:36:17 <wendyreid> ... there's a handful of major browsers, and hundreds of reading systems
00:36:32 <wendyreid> ... which all behave differently on different platforms
00:36:39 <wendyreid> ... the vounteers could never keep up
00:36:59 <wendyreid> ... we failed at trying to keep up with it and maintain
00:37:11 <zhengxu> q+
00:37:16 <wendyreid> ... we need more marisas
00:37:19 <wendyreid> ack marisa
00:37:22 <dauwhe> marisa: you took the words out of my mouth
00:37:27 <dauwhe> ... I developed the site
00:37:33 <dauwhe> ... keeping it up to date was not possible
00:37:43 <dauwhe> ... we relied on volunteer testers; the tests were not automated
00:37:52 <dauwhe> ... even though we had some provisions to make it easier
00:38:05 <dauwhe> ... the rate at which reading systems were changing required too much retesting
00:38:16 <marisa> https://daisy.github.io/old-epub3-support-grid/features/
00:38:20 <dauwhe> ... a couple of months ago, BISG asked me to put the static site back
00:38:24 <dauwhe> ... i've put it back
00:38:31 <dauwhe> ... link ^^^
00:38:39 <dauwhe> ... this only scratches the surface
00:38:59 <dauwhe> ... but this is what we tried to do for caniuse for epub
00:39:03 <wendyreid> ack zhengxu
00:39:11 <dauwhe> zhengxu: I understand; I respect the amount of work required
00:39:30 <dauwhe> ... two things
00:39:37 <dauwhe> ... one, in terms of caniuse or test
00:39:46 <dauwhe> ... if it needed to be maintained by each RS
00:40:06 <dauwhe> ... publishers would know how to create content for a RS
00:40:23 <dauwhe> ... we might have more than a hundred reading systems. No 3rd party can do that.
00:40:42 <dauwhe> ... webp... based on the current track, it's hard to add more to CMT
00:40:49 <dauwhe> ... what is benefit of having this CMT?
00:41:04 <dauwhe> ... we have spec, we have 3.3 that defines that webp must be CMT
00:41:13 <dauwhe> ... but we have a RS that does not support this
00:41:16 <dauwhe> ... that is a problem
00:41:33 <dauwhe> wendyreid: we have to get back to the core of the core of the talk about core media types
00:41:43 <dauwhe> ... it sounds like we have consensus on criteria
00:41:59 <dauwhe> ... they need overwhelming support by browsers and operating systems, with a path to completion
00:42:11 <dauwhe> ... and they need a direct benefit to content creators and/or reading systems
00:42:42 <dauwhe> ... based on those criteria, let's start with WebP
00:42:46 <dauwhe> ... I'll put in a proposal
00:42:53 <wendyreid> Proposal: Add WebP as a core media type in EPUB 3.3
00:43:03 <duga> +2 (1 for me, 1 for Garth)
00:43:06 <Teenya> 0
00:43:17 <LauraB__> 0
00:43:28 <shiestyle> +1
00:43:31 <MattChan> +1
00:43:33 <marisa> +1
00:43:34 <zhengxu> +1
00:43:35 <Yanni> +1
00:43:48 <BenSchroeter> 0
00:44:02 <wendyreid> +1
00:44:15 <wendyreid> Resolved: Add WebP as a core media type in EPUB 3.3
00:44:38 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I can't make a strong case for VTT
00:44:40 <dauwhe> q+
00:45:04 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:45:15 <wendyreid> dauwhe: I don't think we should vote on this right now
00:45:22 <wendyreid> ... it might not need to be a CMT
00:45:29 <wendyreid> ... it should be available in EPUB
00:45:36 <wendyreid> ... let's figure out how to do that
00:46:04 <dauwhe> wendyreid: that's all I have for today
00:46:08 <dauwhe> ... 's issue
00:46:19 <dauwhe> ... thanks to everyohe who attended the joint meeting with APA/Silver
00:46:35 <dauwhe> ... next week's meeting will be our not-face to not-face
00:46:40 <dauwhe> ... we'll do two meetings
00:46:50 <dauwhe> ... both meetings will be 3.5 hours with breaks
00:46:55 <dauwhe> ... we're finalizing agendas now
00:47:16 <dauwhe> ... we'll talk about testing, fxl a11y, some contentious github issues, etc.
00:47:24 <dauwhe> ... be prepared to see the agenda early next week
00:47:40 <dauwhe> ... please volunteer to scribe, we will need multiple scribes per session
00:47:49 <dauwhe> ... anything else?
00:48:12 <dauwhe> zhengxu: the CG will have the first meeting next week
00:48:29 <dauwhe> ... do we want to try caniuse for ereader again, run by the community group?
00:48:40 <dauwhe> wendyreid: that's wednesday
00:48:47 <dauwhe> marisa: 21st?
00:48:53 <dauwhe> ... Publishing CG?
00:48:58 <dauwhe> ... I'll try to be there.
00:49:27 <dauwhe> wendyreid: if that's everything, I'll let everyone get to their workday, worknight, or whatever.
00:49:38 <dauwhe> ... see y'all next week at eTPAC.
00:49:49 <dauwhe> ... stay positive and test negative :)
00:49:56 <dauwhe> zakim, end meeting
00:49:56 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, toshiakikoike, MasakazuKitahara, MattChan, LauraB__, zhengxu, Teenya, duga, marisa, Yanni, shiestyle, BenSchroeter, jyoshii
00:49:59 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:49:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/15-epub-minutes.html Zakim
00:50:01 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, dauwhe; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
00:50:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
00:50:35 <dauwhe> RRSAgent: make logs public
00:50:46 <LauraB__> LauraB__ has left #epub
00:52:53 <shiestyle> Funny Japanese :)
00:53:52 <shiestyle> Yes!
00:54:45 <shiestyle> See you next week!
00:55:48 <zhengxu> zhengxu has joined #epub
00:59:34 <zhengxu_> zhengxu_ has joined #epub
03:42:51 <zhengxu_> zhengxu_ has joined #epub
06:02:31 <Karen_> Karen_ has joined #epub
10:16:51 <zhengxu> zhengxu has joined #epub
10:24:02 <zhengxu_> zhengxu_ has joined #epub
11:04:58 <zhengxu> zhengxu has joined #epub
12:01:38 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #epub
12:21:00 <zhengxu> zhengxu has joined #epub