13:04:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #idcg
13:04:45 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/10/06-idcg-irc
13:05:03 <tink> rrsagent, clear agenda
13:05:03 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'clear agenda', tink.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:05:59 <tink> TOPIC: IDCG meeting (please use Zoom to queue)
13:06:22 <tink> agenda+ Actions review https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues
13:06:38 <tink> agenda+ BLM statement next steps
13:06:43 <tink> agenda+ Other business
13:06:51 <tink> Meeting: IDCG meeting
13:06:56 <tink> rrsagent, make minutes
13:06:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/06-idcg-minutes.html tink
13:07:12 <tink> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
13:07:45 <tink> CHAIR: Léonie
13:07:51 <tink> rrsagent, make minutes
13:07:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/06-idcg-minutes.html tink
13:21:47 <koalie> s/TOPIC: ID/meeting: ID/
13:59:52 <jeff> jeff has joined #idcg
14:00:11 <koalie> present+ Dan, Léonie, Barb, Tzviya, Barb, Coralie
14:00:40 <koalie> agenda+ suggestions for agenda items for the PWECG/IDCG joint meeting at TPAC?
14:00:51 <Barbara_H> Barbara_H has joined #idcg
14:00:56 <koalie> scribenick: koalie
14:01:13 <DKA_> DKA_ has joined #idcg
14:01:20 <koalie> Zakim, take up item 1
14:01:20 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Actions review https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues" taken up [from tink]
14:01:20 <DKA_> present+ Dan Appelquist
14:01:32 <koalie> Leonie: 22 open actions
14:02:38 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/28
14:02:53 <koalie> Leonie: I'd like to discuss the issue that suggests some pledge for AC reps to sign to
14:03:00 <koalie> present+ Jeff
14:03:16 <koalie> [Tzviya reads aloud issue #28]
14:03:57 <koalie> https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/29
14:04:06 <koalie> nope
14:04:07 <koalie> https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/18
14:04:27 <koalie> Leonie: Jeff, is there anyone on team we could ask to reach out to
14:04:50 <koalie> Zakim, bye
14:04:50 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Dan, Léonie, Barb, Tzviya, Coralie, Appelquist, Jeff
14:04:50 <Zakim> Zakim has left #idcg
14:05:39 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #idcg
14:05:55 <koalie> Leonie: have we got any sense of what the fee structure would look like for Africa?
14:06:02 <koalie> present+ Judy
14:06:40 <koalie> Jeff: we try to reach for fair due
14:07:03 <koalie> ... we have a formula for small companies in lower-income countries
14:07:07 <koalie> ... using world bank
14:07:23 <koalie> ... less than 1k, less then 2k, etc.
14:07:29 <koalie> ... there's already a fee structure
14:07:38 <koalie> ... but has not attracted sufficient interest
14:07:49 <koalie> ... so we're looking at other techniques as well
14:07:56 <koalie> present+ Annette
14:08:02 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #idcg
14:08:12 <koalie> Dan: I think it would be a mistake to focus only on geographical diversity
14:08:15 <koalie> present+ hober
14:08:17 <annette_g> present+
14:08:51 <koalie> Dan: Léonie mentioned Nigeria having a startup culture
14:09:03 <koalie> ... I know people and can talk to them to see whether there are connections there
14:09:14 <koalie> Barb: I agree it should not be geographic
14:09:20 <koalie> ... I may have connections too
14:09:38 <koalie> Leonie: agreed and thanks for possible connections
14:10:18 <koalie> ... we might want to put our thinking on how we can enable participation by organization
14:10:43 <koalie> ====
14:10:48 <wendyreid> present+
14:11:04 <koalie> -> https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/18  Create nomination guidance #18
14:11:19 <koalie> Leonie: aim is to enable more diverse participation
14:11:26 <koalie> ... this has come up in a number of other issues
14:11:40 <koalie> ... what can we do to encourage AC reps to send a more diverse set of participants?
14:11:50 <koalie> ... Dan, any ideas you could share?
14:11:51 <jeff> q+
14:12:37 <tzviya> q+ to talk about presenting diversity as a feature
14:12:38 <Judy> q+
14:12:41 <wendyreid> q+
14:12:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #idcg
14:12:55 <jeff> q+ jeff tzviya
14:13:02 <jeff> q+ judy wendyreid
14:13:04 <koalie> Dan: I think the question is how do we encourage AC reps and the orgs they represent create career paths for engineers
14:13:21 <koalie> ... and opening those to engineers for whom participating in W3C might be a good idea
14:13:51 <koalie> Zakim, bye
14:13:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #idcg
14:14:09 <Judy> q+ to suggest what a clear message about promoting diverse representatives into W3C activities might be, and how we can *consistently* promote that in our AC and broader interactions
14:14:46 <Barbara_H> +Q
14:14:52 <koalie> Dan: in a way where companies could go back to their statement in a year or so and see progress
14:15:08 <annette_g> q+
14:15:30 <koalie> Jeff: Kim told us we need to drive action
14:16:02 <koalie> Jeff: what would it mean to drive action? start with numbers and targets
14:16:21 <koalie> ... we have about 12K in CGs and several thousands in WGs
14:16:42 <koalie> ... a portion of those are in the US (say 4 to 5K)
14:17:06 <koalie> ... our target would be to get 400 black participants only in the US, and at least 50 in WG
14:17:11 <koalie> ... that's 1/10th
14:17:29 <koalie> ... if you go global, as this is a global problem, the target needs to be bigger
14:17:46 <koalie> ... when you look at the target, you realise that we can't do it at W3C without the involvemet of W3C members
14:17:53 <koalie> ... we need the AC reps on these calls
14:17:59 <koalie> ... it's not just who they nominate
14:18:15 <koalie> ... if we don't make this an imperative in our community, we will never drive the kind of results that Kim talked about
14:18:21 <koalie> ... we'll be more welcoming, sure
14:18:33 <koalie> ... it means that issue 18 is magnified in my mind on its importance
14:18:42 <koalie> WendyR: I like all of the ideas mentioned so far
14:19:00 <koalie> ... i'd like to put the onus on the AC, but maybe we're not considering how uninvolved AC reps can be with their org
14:19:14 <koalie> ... my AC reps is in a different country and business unit and we never converse
14:19:27 <koalie> ... he doesn't present to our company
14:19:38 <koalie> Dan: I could say exactly the same thing for mine
14:19:58 <jeff> q+ to comment on Wendy's issue of uninvolved AC reps (and I raised my hand in Zoom!)
14:20:00 <koalie> WendyR: I'm sure it's the same for many other orgs and that the problem may be bigger is the orgs are big
14:20:21 <koalie> ... if we put too much of the onus on the orgs, that's putting too much work on orgs and AC reps in particular
14:20:28 <koalie> ... they are not necessarily positioned to do that
14:20:38 <koalie> ... it doesn't mean we should not help them do this
14:20:50 <koalie> ... but the AC reps portion should be just a small portion, not the whole plan
14:20:58 <koalie> ... we need to be a little bit more active with companies
14:21:02 <koalie> ... reach out to them
14:21:32 <koalie> Judy: this came up in previous calls as well
14:22:30 <koalie> ... with regard to racial diversity, W3C should have a statement
14:22:36 <koalie> ... we should build that into our materials
14:22:48 <koalie> ... when we talk at conferences about opportunities
14:23:00 <koalie> ... simple statement, make sure it's part of a consistent message to AC reps
14:23:04 <koalie> ... asking Chairs
14:23:10 <koalie> ... e.g. if you're looking for an editor
14:23:22 <koalie> ... make sure you ask who in your group might be good at it and needs encouragement
14:23:29 <koalie> ... think about diversity when you do that
14:23:47 <koalie> ... somebody suggested a public commitment but let's put people first
14:24:09 <koalie> Barb: I've been thinking about this for a while, Jeff
14:24:13 <koalie> ... the structure is interesting
14:24:19 <koalie> ... you're the CEO, you have AC reps
14:24:35 <koalie> ... [NFL analogy]
14:24:44 <koalie> ... they had some challenges on black lives matter
14:24:57 <koalie> ... chaos was created because not everyone was on the same page
14:25:03 <koalie> ... The leadership took ownership
14:25:11 <koalie> ... it's great to have our committees
14:25:33 <koalie> ... but in the AC, we'd like them to take the pledge
14:25:37 <koalie> ... we have great Chairs
14:25:41 <koalie> ... in summary:
14:25:45 <wendyreid> +1 to chairs being involved
14:25:46 <koalie> ... this is the beauty of W3C
14:25:54 <koalie> ... it's also the challenge on tackling the problem.
14:26:00 <koalie> ... going back to what Kim said:
14:26:11 <koalie> ... it becomes strategy, a plan
14:26:26 <koalie> ... are there some AC reps who would be willing to say we could do this or that
14:26:37 <koalie> ... the members trying to tell owners what they should or should not do
14:26:52 <koalie> ... instead, we should bring them into the fold as far as trying to figure things out
14:26:56 <koalie> ... it's the challenge of W3C
14:27:03 <koalie> ... but any challenge also opens opportunity
14:27:27 <jeff> ack tzvi
14:27:34 <annette_g> q?
14:27:38 <koalie> Tzviya: I completely agree with what Barb said
14:27:53 <koalie> ... AC, grass roots approach, but also
14:28:31 <koalie> ... perhaps we can help the AC with presentations
14:28:49 <koalie> ... if people step up and sign a pledge they are willing to help improve W3C
14:29:30 <koalie> Annette: As an AC rep, it's not too much to ask me to reach out to people in my org
14:29:48 <koalie> ... 2nd point: best thing we can do is try to reach out to some black and find out what prevents them from joining
14:29:52 <koalie> ... so we can remove barriers
14:30:27 <koalie> ... 3rd point: discount in membership, or direct entry in AC meeting, there are ways we could structure things that wouldn't be too much of a hit on our finance
14:30:40 <koalie> ... 4th point: bringing in new membership
14:30:59 <koalie> Jeff: going back to WendyR's comment on AC reps who are disconnected
14:31:03 <koalie> ... I'm painfully aware of that
14:31:09 <koalie> ... it's a problem across the board
14:31:26 <koalie> ... I'd love to have a problem where W3C together with Members add some diversity commitment
14:31:33 <koalie> ... maybe that will energize AC reps
14:31:36 <koalie> ... I could envision:
14:31:51 <koalie> ... some program, fraction of the AC reps who'd feel obligated to participate
14:32:15 <koalie> ... if the program has as an element that the AC reps needs to have a conversation with their chief diversity officer
14:32:25 <koalie> ... that ultimately helps building the program
14:32:34 <koalie> ... could activate both AC reps, companies.
14:32:38 <koalie> ... lots of leverage
14:33:05 <koalie> ... Also, I'd like to remind us that membership is a contract between W3C and the organizations
14:33:29 <koalie> ... as such, we expect Members to contribute as part of whichever program we can come up with
14:33:43 <koalie> ... I don't want to minimize the problem WendyR brought up
14:33:56 <koalie> Leonie: to wrap up on this issue
14:34:00 <koalie> ... and for next steps
14:34:09 <koalie> ... please add to https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/18
14:34:32 <koalie> ... my other thought: would it be worth sending email to the AC to ask them to continue this conversation?
14:34:42 <koalie> ... invite their perspective
14:35:22 <koalie> Judy: It's worth thinking about it as an opportunity for the AC to take action and for W3C to provide specific information/resources/encouragement
14:35:38 <koalie> ... if it's a two-way thing we're not putting the members in a position to be blamed.
14:35:55 <koalie> Tzviya: I like Judy's suggestion
14:36:09 <koalie> ... I think it's premature
14:36:29 <koalie> ... those active already will happily take it on
14:36:51 <koalie> ... but without a good outline, we're likely to not succeeed in getting more engaged.
14:37:03 <koalie> Barb: TPAC is a wonderful experience
14:37:08 <koalie> ... that's where this group started
14:37:21 <koalie> ... is there any breakout session or else we could put in place this time?
14:37:34 <koalie> ... I invited my AC rep to a joing session at TPAC, I hope that's ok
14:37:39 <koalie> Leonie: of course
14:37:47 <koalie> Barb: why not host a breakout session?
14:37:57 <koalie> ... Jeff articulated very well our goals and vision
14:38:10 <koalie> ... and we could solicit their input to achive these goals and vision
14:38:23 <koalie> Leonie: +1
14:38:36 <koalie> ... any volunteer to frame this suggestion?
14:38:44 <koalie> Judy: we have a joint meeting already
14:39:01 <koalie> Barb: yes, that's a meeting of TPAC, the breakouts are in the week of October 26
14:39:21 <koalie> Judy: I favour the idea of a breakout session for discussion
14:39:32 <koalie> ... I think different people would show up
14:39:52 <koalie> ... I've gotten feedback to save this week for technical topics, but this topic is important
14:40:04 <koalie> ... I wouldn't want to do it solo, but I'd be happy to offer a session
14:40:10 <koalie> ... and see who turns up
14:40:25 <koalie> Barb: Judy, if you need a partner in crime
14:40:29 <koalie> Judy: Thanks!
14:40:30 <koalie> Jeff: @@
14:40:47 <jeff> Jeff: I'm always willing to talk
14:40:47 <koalie> Leonie: Could you share with the CG in advance?
14:40:50 <koalie> Judy: will do
14:41:03 <koalie> s/advance?/advance for comments?/
14:41:27 <koalie> Topic: joint meeting next week with PWE - agenda ideation
14:41:50 <koalie> Leonie: any topic people here would like to put on the agenda of the joint PWECG/IDCG meeting next week?
14:42:41 <koalie> Dan: addition/modification to CEPC that could encourage better and more inclusive env?
14:42:56 <koalie> .... that we could add energy into from the D&I perspective
14:43:04 <koalie> Judy: traning plan
14:43:12 <koalie> ... for CEPC
14:43:30 <koalie> Leonie: I think we have a few issues on our GH that overlap with what PWECG is doing
14:43:36 <koalie> ... like guides, languages to use
14:43:55 <koalie> ... I raised one originally for accessibility e.g., "is this OK to say that you're blind?"
14:44:07 <koalie> ... I wonder if there are a couple of issues worth our joint discussions
14:44:15 <koalie> ... Tzviya I'll dig those
14:44:31 <koalie> Tzviya: maybe we can discuss what other training people are interested in
14:45:06 <koalie> Leonie: send your further suggestions in the next day or so in e-mail
14:45:22 <koalie> Topic: BLM statement next steps
14:45:37 <koalie> Leonie: we have strong and clear feedback from Kim
14:46:01 <koalie> ... the Director supported the IDCG recommendation to not publish the BLM statement that was reviewed
14:46:26 <koalie> Judy: a question that came up after Kim presented: does W3C want to do something that is very specific to BLM or
14:46:44 <koalie> ... do we want to do something broader in some way, or deliberately reflective of W3C's global context?
14:46:57 <koalie> ... there are many ways that conversation went and it wasn't resolved
14:47:09 <koalie> ... we need to figure that out as a group, what w3c wants to focus on
14:47:16 <koalie> ... before we can go back to the statement
14:47:32 <koalie> Jeff: Kim said a lot and we each internalised differently what she said
14:47:47 <koalie> ... it may make sense to have a session, even with the PWE folks, just to verbalise
14:48:05 <koalie> ... how we internalised and what we got out of what Kim said
14:48:19 <koalie> ... she said ours was a weak statement and that it was not going to cause any change
14:48:30 <wseltzer> regrets+
14:48:42 <koalie> ... I focus on the latter part of this, hence my introduction on actions earlier in this call
14:48:51 <koalie> ... deep thinking is required for what we might achieve
14:49:05 <koalie> ... others might have internalised differently
14:49:21 <koalie> Dan: what I took away:
14:49:38 <koalie> ... this is an all lives matter statment, she said
14:49:50 <koalie> ... the question on the table for us is do we want W3C to make a BLM statement
14:50:00 <koalie> ... I believe it's important to do so and it sends a strong signal
14:50:24 <koalie> ... but it doesn't obviate us from doing all the important work to help with diversity
14:50:36 <koalie> ... but I do think it would be a fairly constrained piece of work
14:50:42 <annette_g> +++ to Daniel
14:51:21 <koalie> WendyR: I agree with what Dan was saying
14:51:27 <koalie> ... we should lead with BLM
14:51:41 <koalie> ... Kim said we're in the rare position where we can influence tech
14:51:57 <koalie> ... for the Web standards org to put out a statement
14:52:01 <Judy> +++ to Wendy R
14:52:13 <koalie> ... and we've put a lot of work already
14:52:20 <koalie> ... we do need help
14:52:32 <koalie> ... I'd love it if we could bring Kim in, or find someone else
14:52:41 <koalie> ... Also, flesh out the other action items
14:52:49 <tzviya> +1 to wendyreid
14:52:55 <koalie> ... some we could make happen pretty quickly
14:53:12 <koalie> ... I think it would be wrong of us to say all lives matter
14:53:17 <koalie> ... we need to put a stake in the ground
14:53:21 <koalie> Leonie: I agree
14:53:31 <koalie> ... the challenge is how to help us bring someone to help us to that
14:53:52 <annette_g> +1 for bringing Kim in as paid a consultant if she's willing.
14:53:52 <koalie> Barb: on the statement, I agree we need to close that out
14:54:01 <koalie> ... but we need a bigger picture that the AC buys into
14:54:09 <annette_g> s/paid a/a paid/
14:54:27 <koalie> ... making sure there's a connection between vision and what we're trying to accomplish
14:54:43 <koalie> ... Also, the CG is more around discussion/ideas, and WG turns into implmentation
14:54:56 <koalie> ... we do think we've matured enough to move our work to a WG?
14:55:20 <koalie> ... who then has the empowerement to put together documents etc.
14:55:31 <koalie> Leonie: I think we may be that
14:55:41 <koalie> ... you're right, we have to do as well as talk about these things
14:55:45 <Judy> [JB: Specifically liked these two aspects of what Wendy R said: "W3C is in a position to have significant influence in the tech field"; and, "the tech field has a significant problem with anti-black racism". (Wendy, please fix that if I caught it wrong.)]
14:56:39 <koalie> Leonie: are there any other ways we could bring expertise quickly and efficiently?
14:57:16 <koalie> Judy: The W3C community has some black participants
14:57:27 <koalie> ... I'm concerned that they have not felt comfortable joining this group
14:57:33 <Barbara_H> +1
14:57:44 <koalie> ... I've reached out to some to ask
14:58:02 <koalie> ... I want to be sure we don't think there aren't any black people at W3C
14:58:18 <koalie> ... My second point was that Kim may be great to work with
14:59:11 <koalie> ... Ibrahim Kandy in the Boston area may be a good person too
14:59:29 <koalie> ... let's try to see if Kim is willing to work with us
14:59:46 <koalie> Dan: we have a chicken-and-egg problem
14:59:56 <koalie> ... about having all white people in this group. We may have more diverse representation from our orgs but they’re not here because they don’t have the background in w3c. What could we do to get around this?

15:00:01 <Judy> s/Ibrahim Kandy/Ibram Kendi/
15:00:25 <koalie> Dan: let's bring people from the web community who are active in racial issues as well
15:00:37 <koalie> ... that are known for being black technologist
15:00:46 <koalie> ... let's try to bring them to our next meeting and ask them
15:00:53 <koalie> ... the feedback we need
15:01:36 <koalie> [ajourned till our joint PWECG/IDCG meeting next week, and we're back again the following week]
15:01:39 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
15:01:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/06-idcg-minutes.html koalie
15:01:39 <koalie> rrsagent, please draft minutes v2
15:01:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/06-idcg-minutes.html koalie
15:08:45 <koalie> regrets+ Rhian
15:08:47 <koalie> rrsagent, please draft minutes v2
15:08:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/06-idcg-minutes.html koalie
15:09:30 <koalie> regret+ Rhian
15:09:32 <koalie> rrsagent, please draft minutes v2
15:09:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/06-idcg-minutes.html koalie
15:10:21 <koalie> RRSAgent, bye
15:10:21 <RRSAgent> I see no action items