13:41:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #idcg
13:41:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-irc
13:41:18 <koalie> Zakim, bye
13:41:18 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been tzviya, Coralie, hober, melanierichards, Judy, wendyreid
13:41:18 <Zakim> Zakim has left #idcg
13:41:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #idcg
13:41:49 <koalie> meeting: IDCG Meeting
13:41:57 <koalie> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/09/01-idcg-minutes.html Previous (2020-09-01)
13:42:12 <koalie> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2020Sep/0021.html
13:42:12 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:42:13 <agendabot> agenda+ Kim Crayton's feedback on the W3C BLM statement.
13:42:13 <agendabot> agenda+ IDCG representatives on the diversity fund committee
13:42:19 <koalie> chair: Léonie
13:42:24 <koalie> regrets: chaals
13:52:54 <koalie> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:59:53 <tzviya> present+
13:59:55 <koalie> present+ Coralie
14:00:06 <koalie> present+ Kim_Crayton
14:00:33 <koalie> present+ Léonie_Watson, Wendy_Reid, Tobie_Langel
14:01:05 <tink> present+ Léonie (tink)
14:01:40 <koalie> present+ Barb_Hochgesang, Marisa_DeMeglio
14:01:57 <marisa> marisa has joined #idcg
14:02:02 <marisa> present+
14:02:09 <koalie> present+ Judy_Brewer
14:02:32 <jeff> jeff has joined #idcg
14:03:10 <koalie> present+ Jeff_Jaffe
14:03:41 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #idcg
14:03:44 <Ralph> present+
14:04:32 <koalie> present+ Annette_Greiner
14:05:33 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #idcg
14:05:43 <jeff> scribe+
14:05:53 <jeff> Leonie: Background leading up to this meeting
14:05:55 <annette_g> present+
14:06:05 <jeff> ... this meeting is to figure out next steps
14:06:14 <jeff> ... Kim, can you summarize your feedback?
14:06:27 <koalie> present+ Dan_Appelquist
14:06:33 <BarbH> BarbH has joined #idcg
14:06:40 <jeff> Dan: I watched Kim's video
14:06:47 <jeff> ... urge everyone else to listen and be receptive
14:07:00 <jeff> Kim Crayton: Tobie reached out 2 weeks ago
14:07:07 <jeff> ... feedback on BLM statement
14:07:20 <jeff> ... I offered to do that pro bono due to W3C's global influence
14:07:31 <jeff> ... introduces me to new spaces
14:07:56 <jeff> ... I was surprised that this homogeneous group would reach out
14:08:05 <jeff> ... my style may not comfort you
14:08:17 <jeff> ... the statement on its surface was not bad
14:08:23 <jeff> ... but it was not a BLM statement
14:08:30 <jeff> ... so the title did not fit
14:08:41 <jeff> ... not surprising, no black lives in this group
14:08:49 <jeff> ... white people need to stop speaking for black lives
14:08:56 <jeff> ... I was frustrated by your process
14:09:09 <jeff> ... context is loss in your email chain
14:09:16 <jeff> ... how do you get anything done?
14:09:27 <jeff> ... is that the best you can do?
14:09:31 <jeff> ... pretty crappy
14:09:40 <jeff> ... I told Tobie I need to talk to you
14:09:54 <koalie> [Tess arrives]
14:09:59 <jeff> ... I decided on video so nothing lost in translation
14:10:00 <koalie> present+ Tess_O'connor
14:10:02 <hober> present+
14:10:09 <jeff> ... To say "we support people" it's not bad
14:10:24 <jeff> ... if it is supporting a specific group, it is harmful to bring other things into that statement
14:10:34 <jeff> ... BLM + blah blah blah is crap
14:10:43 <jeff> ... Also, anti-blackness is global
14:10:46 <jeff> ... not just US
14:10:53 <jeff> ... even where there are no black people
14:11:05 <jeff> ... anti-blackness is everywhere
14:11:17 <jeff> ... that's why the movement went global in the middle of a pandemic
14:11:43 <jeff> ... tech is not neutral
14:11:53 <jeff> ... intention without strategy is chaos
14:12:02 <jeff> ... that is where this statement is leading
14:12:07 <jeff> ... I commend you for stopping
14:12:14 <jeff> ... lack of inclusion is a risk
14:12:24 <jeff> ... crisis management issue
14:12:30 <jeff> ... most companies have nothing in place
14:12:49 <jeff> ... engaging in safe ways is a crisis management issue
14:12:59 <jeff> ... white folks feeling a portion of what it is like
14:13:11 <jeff> ... this is white supremacy eating on its host
14:13:19 <jeff> ... you might have cared; but not enough
14:13:27 <jeff> ... the fact that you are late doesn't matter
14:13:39 <jeff> ... you are engaging becauses it causes harm to you
14:13:44 <jeff> ... you don't like how you feel
14:13:53 <jeff> ... only seeing white faces - that's a problem
14:14:07 <jeff> ... The violence statement was a red light
14:14:14 <jeff> ... people said we need to stop
14:14:20 <jeff> ... BLM, but with conditions?
14:14:30 <jeff> ... promotes a racist trope
14:14:47 <jeff> ... you should be thankful that black people have not rioted and taken over your cities
14:14:55 <jeff> ... Blacks were not considered people
14:15:09 <jeff> ... the fact that we don't run down white folks says something about our humanity
14:15:28 <jeff> Leonie: Comments?  Questions?
14:15:33 <jeff> Barbara: I live in Portland
14:15:45 <jeff> ... totally relate
14:15:53 <jeff> ... a very white city struggling to move forward
14:16:01 <jeff> ... I am more action oriented
14:16:14 <jeff> ... if you were us - what are the 2, 3 things you recommend to move forward
14:16:24 <dka_> dka_ has joined #idcg
14:16:25 <jeff> Kim: Portland is a great example of what is problematic
14:16:32 <jeff> ... they do all of this stuff
14:16:38 <dka_> q?
14:16:38 <jeff> ... but they are very racist
14:16:44 <jeff> ... and have not owned up
14:16:54 <dka_> q+ to ask "what would you suggest?"
14:16:58 <dka_> q-
14:17:01 <jeff> ... white folks think they are helping and are doing harm
14:17:08 <jeff> ... I'm not fixing this for free
14:17:36 <jeff> ... you need to decide if you want a solidarity statement or a BLM statement
14:17:44 <jeff> ... you don't need me for the former
14:17:50 <jeff> ... just remove the BLM title
14:17:58 <jeff> ... if you want a BLM statement
14:18:05 <Judy> q+
14:18:13 <jeff> ... (and thereby create a template for others)
14:18:41 <jeff> ... and dealing with the issues in tech more generally
14:18:47 <jeff> ... then I can help
14:18:49 <koalie> ack j
14:18:52 <koalie> Zakim, bye
14:18:52 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been tzviya, Coralie, Kim_Crayton, Léonie_Watson, Wendy_Reid, Tobie_Langel, (tink), Barb_Hochgesang, Marisa_DeMeglio, marisa,
14:18:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #idcg
14:18:55 <Zakim> ... Judy_Brewer, Jeff_Jaffe, Ralph, Annette_Greiner, annette_g, Dan_Appelquist, Tess_O'connor, hober
14:18:56 <jeff> Judy: I'm on W3C staff
14:19:09 <jeff> ... I would support paying a consultant
14:19:21 <jeff> ... some working on statements, some working on actions
14:19:41 <jeff> ... W3C is a key influence point in the tech field
14:19:59 <jeff> ... if W3C can develop some actions to improve
14:20:04 <jeff> ... and help others to do the same
14:20:13 <jeff> ... it would be a tiny piece in the right direction
14:20:22 <jeff> ... some members have an interest in W3C helping with that process
14:20:28 <jeff> ... pull together resources and actions
14:20:42 <jeff> ... you said you don't want to provide free advice
14:20:49 <jeff> ... so I don't know what else to say.
14:20:58 <jeff> Kim: I saw your strategies in the letter
14:21:06 <jeff> ... they don't apply depending on your path
14:21:19 <jeff> ... it is moot since it is not a BLM statements
14:21:45 <jeff> ... as a consultant I can both draft a statement and build a playbook
14:22:01 <jeff> ... white folks should not do this by themselves,
14:22:14 <jeff> ... but I need them involved as a white shield
14:22:20 <jeff> ... without interpretation and change of nuance
14:22:28 <jeff> ... life is full of gray
14:22:56 <jeff> ... playbook needs to be iterative
14:23:08 <jeff> Tzviya: Thanks Kim for the video, etc.
14:23:26 <jeff> ... assuming we have a BLM statement - can you point us to some companies who have done this well?
14:23:40 <jeff> Kim: A billionaire reached out to me
14:23:58 <jeff> ... he was going to give the money away
14:24:09 <jeff> ... provides the name (not scribed since it is personal)
14:24:26 <jeff> ... wanted to give money to black businesses
14:24:37 <jeff> ... anti-racist education tech foundation
14:24:45 <jeff> ... told him that this does not exist
14:25:07 <jeff> s/provides the name/<provides the name>/
14:25:15 <jeff> ... I've gotten so many calls
14:25:18 <jeff> ... this is new
14:25:28 <jeff> ... this doesn't exist
14:25:50 <jeff> ... think of yourselves as pioneers
14:26:14 <jeff> ... we get to counter the narratives of companies who are lobbying
14:26:25 <jeff> ... will result in equity
14:26:34 <jeff> ... people are thinking about it; but noone is doing it
14:26:39 <jeff> ... let's get ahead of the harm
14:26:45 <jeff> ... provide alternatives
14:27:00 <jeff> Wendy: Your feedback was amazing
14:27:08 <jeff> ... I had written the first draft of the statment
14:27:14 <jeff> ... I'm Canadian
14:27:24 <jeff> ... that's part of why I included indigeneous
14:27:32 <jeff> ... fused with BLM in Canada
14:27:55 <jeff> Kim: Indeed, some are trying to annihilate indigeneous people
14:28:05 <jeff> Wendy: I don't want to forget that group
14:28:14 <jeff> ... as a group we need to discuss direction
14:28:28 <jeff> ... so BLM v all lives matter - this is screwed up
14:28:40 <jeff> Kim: Consider this a free coaching session
14:28:50 <jeff> ... You made a binary statement
14:28:58 <jeff> ... We all have a unique experiences
14:29:14 <jeff> ... even indigeneous cultures have anti-blackness
14:29:26 <jeff> ... all sorts of folks pass as white: indigeneous, Jewish
14:29:39 <jeff> ... that's the binary thinking that white folks have
14:29:52 <jeff> ... you can have multiple statements.  But they need to be separate
14:30:12 <jeff> ... that is why I told Judy that this is not about people with disabilities
14:30:17 <jeff> ... you need to think in grays
14:30:36 <jeff> Leonie: We extended our statement because this is not always binary
14:30:50 <jeff> ... people of color with disabilities; LGBTQ
14:30:57 <jeff> ... how do we handle that
14:31:07 <jeff> Kim: Here you intended a BLM statement
14:31:22 <jeff> ... so you dilute that by bringing in the other things
14:31:30 <jeff> ... white people have never been left out
14:31:39 <jeff> ... you must stop gatekeeping
14:31:51 <jeff> Annette: Can we share the video with the AC
14:31:56 <jeff> Kim: Please
14:32:02 <jeff> ... don't translate for me
14:32:14 <jeff> Annette: In terms of a solidarity statement
14:32:19 <jeff> ... is that worse than no statement?
14:32:26 <jeff> Kim: Not for me to decide
14:32:33 <jeff> Annette: What would it be?
14:32:39 <jeff> Kim: Worthless
14:32:43 <jeff> Leonie: To whom?
14:32:52 <jeff> Kim: Who would the statement benefit
14:33:22 <jeff> Leonie: The intention is that it would be helpful for people from marginalized communities
14:33:30 <jeff> Kim: Intention without strategy is chaos
14:33:38 <jeff> ... how would the statement help?
14:33:53 <jeff> ... that's my view
14:34:08 <jeff> Leonie: Well, Annette had asked about a solidarity statement
14:34:21 <jeff> ... off of that you said it would be worthless
14:34:38 <jeff> ... and I said why - it is worthless to me as part of one marginalized community
14:34:49 <jeff> Kim: It is worthless for the long term
14:35:07 <jeff> s/worthless to me/not worthless to me/
14:35:18 <jeff> Kim: Does not help black lives
14:35:23 <jeff> ... everyone has a solidarity statement
14:35:27 <jeff> ... does nothing for me
14:35:40 <jeff> ... it is the status quo
14:35:46 <jeff> ... do you want to stick with that?
14:36:09 <jeff> Leonie: We as a CG have some decisions to make
14:36:28 <jeff> ... we have clear advice from Kim
14:36:40 <jeff> ... publishing the statement in the current form does not support BLM
14:36:52 <jeff> ... anyone think that is a mischaracterization?
14:37:01 <jeff> Wendy: I agree we should not publish in the current state
14:37:14 <jeff> ... it was not my intention to cause more harm than good
14:37:20 <jeff> ... W3C can be a leader
14:37:25 <jeff> ... but we need hep
14:37:32 <jeff> s/hep/help/
14:37:42 <jeff> ... we also noted the lack of black people
14:37:50 <jeff> ... (and often the lack of women at W3C)
14:37:55 <jeff> ... I want us to be a leader
14:38:01 <jeff> ... but I want it to be the right way
14:38:07 <jeff> ... I want a BLM statement
14:38:15 <jeff> ... that requires changing the wording massively
14:38:25 <dka_> +1 to listening to Kim's feedback and to publishing a proper BLM statement.
14:38:29 <jeff> ... doing it right is better even if later
14:38:38 <jeff> Kim: Don't worry about the time
14:38:46 <jeff> ... we started this thing
14:38:58 <jeff> ... we stepped on the breaks because we did not want to cause harm
14:39:09 <jeff> ... so we decided to create a strategy
14:39:22 <jeff> Annette: We need to do more than reword it
14:39:36 <jeff> ... we need to rethink our strategy
14:39:42 <jeff> ... make W3C more black
14:40:03 <jeff> Kim: Needs to be an international black lives matter statement
14:40:12 <jeff> ... says you are thoughtful
14:40:23 <jeff> ... recognize a global problem
14:40:53 <jeff> Tzviya: We also discussed an equity review board
14:40:57 <jeff> ... early stages
14:41:09 <jeff> ... should we shift focus to recruiting more people
14:41:16 <jeff> ... shift our energies to actual actions
14:41:29 <jeff> ... sad that we are non-diverse
14:41:41 <jeff> ... big problem that this is a white group
14:42:01 <jeff> Kim: I don't use terms like fair since that is decided by people in power
14:42:09 <jeff> ... I don't talk about equality
14:42:35 <jeff> ... give two families $100 for groceries
14:42:55 <jeff> ... one with farms and quality food; a car; kids in day care and they have choices
14:43:13 <jeff> ... the other lives in a food desert.  Most go to convenience store.  They don't have a call.
14:43:17 <jeff> ... it is not equal
14:43:25 <jeff> ... need to supplement family that does not have a car.
14:43:34 <jeff> ... money for taxis, baby sitter
14:43:41 <jeff> ... so they have same quality of food
14:43:49 <jeff> ... equal ability to prepare the food
14:44:17 <jeff> ... if people don't understand from the perspective of lived experiences?
14:44:26 <jeff> ... tech loves qualitative data
14:44:38 <jeff> ... quantitative data helps experience
14:44:48 <jeff> Leonie: We all think the review board needs people of color
14:45:00 <jeff> Kim: We recruit these people
14:45:04 <Ralph> [I heard qualitative vs quantitative the other way 'round]
14:45:13 <jeff> ... but we fall flat on retention
14:45:22 <jeff> [Ralph, feel free to correct the record]
14:45:36 <jeff> Kim: Looking at these white faces - you failed.
14:45:55 <jeff> Leonie: In a community that is almost white, how do we make it more welcoming
14:46:04 <jeff> ... we need to take responsibility
14:46:11 <Ralph> [others might wish to record how they heard those remarks]
14:46:18 <jeff> ... that's what this community is doing.
14:46:31 <jeff> [You can provide a responsible opposing view]
14:46:43 <jeff> Leonie: We have almost no people of color.
14:46:55 <jeff> Kim: You don't know any black people?
14:47:10 <jeff> Leonie: We do, but we don't want to impose on people's time
14:47:24 <jeff> Kim: But you are willing to fix a problem that you don't understand?
14:47:36 <jeff> Tzviya: We don't want to tell black people what to do
14:47:45 <jeff> ... we don't select the people who join W3C
14:47:49 <jeff> Kim: That this is moot.
14:47:56 <jeff> ... you don't have the power.
14:48:04 <jeff> ... I'm hearing excuses
14:48:15 <jeff> ... you have not taken ownership
14:48:27 <jeff> ... you have not created a space where black people would feel safe
14:48:36 <jeff> Annette: Here is how the AC works
14:48:52 <jeff> ... when an organization joins, they are the ones that nominate an AC rep
14:48:59 <jeff> Kim: So that needs to change
14:49:04 <jeff> ... where is the power?
14:49:16 <jeff> ... why do it here if you don't have the power.
14:49:30 <jeff> ... push it up to where the power is
14:49:46 <jeff> Wendy: I'm not an AC rep
14:49:58 <jeff> ... we are a CG
14:50:03 <jeff> ... we have some status
14:50:08 <jeff> ... but we don't have the power
14:50:14 <jeff> ... the CEO is listening
14:50:31 <jeff> ... my company is global
14:50:47 <jeff> ... why can't they send a diverse set of representatives
14:51:02 <jeff> ... we should demand that our members send their best and most diverse candidates
14:51:14 <jeff> ... I am giving an AC presentation
14:51:20 <jeff> ... I will ask them about that
14:51:29 <jeff> ... as a CG we should decide what we want to do
14:51:41 <jeff> ... the companies have diverse workforces
14:51:55 <jeff> Kim: So Jeff is the CEO
14:52:04 <jeff> ... that is why I talk to leadership
14:52:14 <jeff> ... I have a finite bandwidth
14:52:17 <jeff> ... I don't like being translated
14:52:31 <jeff> ... people without power get burned out
14:52:38 <jeff> ... people in leadership need to advocate
14:52:43 <jeff> ... needs to come from the top
14:52:51 <jeff> ... communicated as an important initiative
14:53:02 <jeff> ... but I don't work with focus without power
14:53:10 <jeff> ... leadership needs to be at the table
14:53:18 <jeff> Jeff: That's why I'm here
14:53:28 <jeff> Judy: I wanted to give some examples
14:53:39 <jeff> ... with regard to inclusion of women
14:53:53 <jeff> ... over decades we kept hearing that W3C cannot do anything about it
14:53:57 <jeff> ... must rely on AC
14:54:06 <jeff> ... we pushed back
14:54:19 <jeff> ... start talking about standards career path
14:54:28 <jeff> ... then our membership started sending more engineers
14:54:39 <jeff> ... then women said it was uncomfortable
14:54:46 <jeff> ... then made it more welcoming
14:54:55 <jeff> ... similar thing happened with disability
14:55:01 <jeff> ... good is some areas
14:55:19 <jeff> ... but it took many years to recruit, mentor, encourage, find people with disabilities
14:55:30 <jeff> ... still working to be more welcoming
14:55:39 <jeff> ... we are in early stage for racial justice
14:55:58 <jeff> Kim: In your efforts for women and disabilities
14:56:04 <jeff> ... you don't have black people
14:56:09 <jeff> ... still get left out
14:56:19 <jeff> ... women becomes white women
14:56:29 <jeff> ... LGBTQ becomes white LGBTQ
14:56:45 <jeff> ... disabilities become white disabilities
14:56:54 <jeff> ... I'm focused on the most vulnerable
14:57:09 <jeff> Barbara: In my large company I see no effort
14:57:17 <jeff> ... I appreciate Judy's work
14:57:24 <jeff> ... but I've not seen it
14:57:36 <jeff> ... so is this a focus
14:57:50 <jeff> ... there seem to be no teeth or action
14:58:02 <jeff> Kim: Without Jeff signing off I won't be doing it.
14:58:16 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #idcg
14:58:29 <jeff> Leonie: I propose that we share the video feedback to the AC
14:58:33 <Ralph> zakim, who's here?
14:58:34 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
14:58:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see dka_, BarbH, annette_g, Ralph, jeff, marisa, RRSAgent, tzviya, Judy, wendyreid, tink, agendabot, hober, ZoeBijl, wseltzer, koalie, florian, cwilso, melanierichards
14:58:46 <dka_> present+ Dan Appelquist
14:58:50 <jeff> ... and recommend that we not publish the statement as is
14:58:53 <jeff> present+
14:59:09 <jeff> ... we will get back to them once we consider other steps
14:59:12 <dka_> +1
14:59:15 <tzviya> +1
14:59:17 <marisa> +1
14:59:19 <annette_g> +1
14:59:20 <jeff> ... since IDCG needs to rethink the plan
14:59:21 <hober> +1
14:59:23 <wendyreid> +1
14:59:25 <BarbH> +1
14:59:32 <jeff> +1 with coordination with W3M and the current WBS survey
14:59:34 <wendyreid> coralie: +1
14:59:50 <jeff> several additional verbar: +1
15:00:04 <Ralph> [I abstain, given my assignment in this context]
15:00:07 <jeff> ... thanks Kim for all that you offered and shared
15:00:18 <jeff> Kim: Thanks for having me
15:00:24 <BarbH> Great job.  Learned a lot
15:00:24 <jeff> ... you are bold to have invited me
15:00:32 <jeff> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-minutes.html jeff
15:00:57 <jeff> zakim, set logs team
15:00:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'set logs team', jeff
15:01:05 <jeff> zakim, make logs team
15:01:05 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs team', jeff
15:03:00 <Ralph> rrsagent, make record public
15:31:20 <Ralph> s/Kim Crayton: Tobie reached out 2 weeks ago/Kim_Crayton: Tobie reached out 2 weeks ago
15:31:35 <Ralph> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:31:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-minutes.html Ralph
15:32:16 <Ralph> s/[I abstain, given my assignment in this context]//
15:33:12 <Ralph> s/[Ralph, feel free to correct/<jeff> [Ralph, feel free to correct
15:33:30 <Ralph> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:33:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-minutes.html Ralph
15:34:08 <Ralph> s/[You can provide/<jeff> [You can provide
15:34:25 <Ralph> rrsagent, make minutes v2
15:34:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-minutes.html Ralph
15:35:10 <Ralph> zakim, bye
15:35:10 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Dan, Appelquist, jeff
15:35:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #idcg
16:21:16 <koalie> present+ Tess_O'connor
16:21:26 <koalie> present+ Dan_Appelquist
16:21:33 <koalie> present+ Annette_Greiner
16:21:43 <koalie> present+ Jeff_Jaffe
16:21:55 <koalie> present+ Judy_Brewer
16:22:04 <koalie> present+ Barb_Hochgesang, Marisa_DeMeglio
16:22:18 <koalie> present+ Léonie_Watson, Wendy_Reid, Tobie_Langel
16:22:25 <koalie> present+ Kim_Crayton
16:22:38 <koalie> present+ Coralie
16:23:05 <koalie> s/+1 with coordination/<jeff> +1 with coordination/
16:23:14 <koalie> s/verbar/verbal/
16:23:47 <koalie> present+ Ralph_Swick
16:24:59 <koalie> present+ Tzviya_Siegman
16:25:06 <koalie> rrsagent, please draft minutes v2
16:25:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-minutes.html koalie
16:30:35 <koalie> RRSAgent, bye
16:30:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items