13:37:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-curricula
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13:37:53 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dmontalvo
13:38:52 <dmontalvo> Meeting: WAI Curricula Task Force Teleconference
13:39:00 <dmontalvo> Date: 1 September 2020
13:39:04 <dmontalvo> Chair: Daniel
13:40:05 <dmontalvo> agenda+ Appropriateness of suggested design patterns and widgets https://deploy-preview-245--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/developing-accessible-content/custom-widgets/
13:40:30 <dmontalvo> agenda+ Repetitiveness throughout the topics https://deploy-preview-245--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/developing-accessible-content/custom-widgets/
13:41:00 <dmontalvo> agenda+ Usefulness of topic "Enhancing Semantics" https://deploy-preview-245--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/developing-accessible-content/custom-widgets/#topic-extending-semantics
13:41:07 <dmontalvo> agenda?
14:59:43 <shadi> shadi has joined #wai-curricula
15:01:00 <Carlos> Carlos has joined #wai-curricula
15:03:44 <Donal> Donal has joined #wai-curricula
15:05:34 <Howard_> Howard_ has joined #wai-curricula
15:05:45 <Howard_> present+ Howard
15:06:49 <Carlos> present+
15:07:58 <shadi> scribe: shadi
15:08:11 <shadi> present+
15:08:16 <shadi> present+ Donal
15:08:30 <dmontalvo> presen+ Daniel
15:08:33 <shadi> zakim, take up next
15:08:33 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Appropriateness of suggested design patterns and widgets https://deploy-preview-245--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/developing-accessible-content/custom-widgets/"
15:08:36 <Zakim> ... taken up [from dmontalvo]
15:08:42 <shadi> chair: Daniel
15:09:42 <dmontalvo> https://wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/developing-accessible-content/custom-widgets/
15:09:57 <dmontalvo> https://deploy-preview-245--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/developing-accessible-content/custom-widgets/
15:10:22 <shadi> DM: recap from last week
15:10:33 <shadi> ...comment that Module 6 was too theoretical
15:10:46 <shadi> ...request to add real examples of widgets
15:10:56 <shadi> ...likw buttons, carousels, and such
15:11:07 <shadi> ...new proposal has such widgets
15:11:41 <shadi> ...have such examples but now seems quite repetitive
15:12:09 <shadi> ...how can we avoid such repetition?
15:12:45 <shadi> CD: didn't feel like repetition to me
15:13:04 <shadi> ...maybe when translating to teaching material
15:13:08 <shadi> ...but seemed ok to me
15:13:31 <shadi> ...one suggestion is to address the repetitive topics in the first topic
15:13:47 <shadi> ...but we may be speaking about that topic later on+
15:15:03 <Howard_> Shadi: Looking at first topic, it sounds abstract and dry. Hard time differentiating between the 4 learning outcomes.
15:16:13 <Howard_> ... Do have examples in teaching ideas. Learning outcomes are a bit more abstract.
15:17:14 <Howard_> ... Custom buttons is exactly the opposite. Learning outcomes are clear but examples are not.
15:17:35 <Howard_> ... Actual concepts are missing.
15:18:34 <Howard_> ... 1st topic - too theoretical. Other topics, more of a course content than curriculum. Too little concepts in them.
15:18:52 <Howard_> ... Is there a middle way to teach these concepts.
15:20:09 <Howard_> ... Latter topics seem repetitive and don't explain the topics well. Why only explaining these 4 and not others.
15:21:19 <Howard_> scribe: Howard
15:22:16 <shadi> DR: from a higher-level view, I know what button, list boxes, and carousels are
15:22:28 <Howard_> scribe: shadi
15:22:35 <shadi> ...but widgets seems abstract to me
15:22:51 <shadi> ...understand the concern on repetition
15:23:20 <shadi> ...wonder if there is some way to keep these recognizable ways
15:24:30 <shadi> ...would want to know that courses teach these types of components
15:26:20 <Howard_> scribe: Howard
15:26:57 <Howard_> Shadi: Sees Donal's point. Looking at learning outcomes for module -
15:27:26 <Howard_> ... first item: create custom widgets. That's the end result. Need to understand
15:27:42 <Howard_> ... the DOM, keyboard interaction. These latter would be more the topics.
15:28:48 <Howard_> ... Hypothetical: keyboard interaction. Learning outcome would be students would understand
15:29:05 <Howard_> ... their use in carousels, tree view.
15:30:22 <shadi> scribe: shadi
15:30:37 <shadi> DR: widgets is a catch-all term
15:30:48 <shadi> ...other modules are more recognizable
15:31:03 <shadi> ...feels somewhat cryptic
15:32:06 <shadi> DM: understand problem with that term
15:32:48 <shadi> ...is there need for further explanation?
15:33:07 <shadi> DR: in the new version it is clearer because of the topic titles
15:34:41 <shadi> ...coming to this from a marketing perspective
15:35:23 <Howard_> scribe: Howard
15:36:05 <shadi> scribe: shadi
15:36:05 <Howard_> scribe: Shadi
15:36:42 <dmontalvo> agenda?
15:36:58 <shadi> CD: see different sides of this discussion
15:38:24 <shadi> ...current approach doesn't help developers decide which techniques to select
15:38:41 <shadi> ...for example, use standard button or custom button
15:38:53 <shadi> ...many developers need to decide that
15:39:32 <shadi> ...guidance on when to extend vs use native HTML
15:40:18 <shadi> ...these concepts seemed clearer in the previous version
15:41:13 <shadi> ...focusing on specific widgets does not explain these concepts sufficiently
15:42:08 <shadi> ...also missed examples of inaccessible custom widgets in the Extending Semantics topic
15:42:40 <shadi> ...for example button using DIV vs BUTTON elements
15:43:00 <shadi> ...motivates students to do it in an accessible way
15:43:47 <shadi> DM: agree that decision on using native vs extending semantics needs to be clearer
15:45:01 <shadi> HK: don't feel strongly at this point
15:46:10 <shadi> DM: maybe keep current topics names
15:46:20 <shadi> ...and make underlying concepts more clear
15:46:43 <shadi> ...for example keyboard interaction
15:47:29 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/
15:47:42 <Howard_> scribe: Howard
15:47:53 <shadi> SAZ: which widgets will be listed at the end?
15:48:07 <Howard_> scribe: shadi
15:48:08 <shadi> ...ARIA Practices lists 27 types of widgets
15:48:40 <shadi> DM: think these are the most commonly used
15:49:02 <shadi> ...could add tree and tab-panel
15:49:56 <Howard_> scribe: Howard
15:49:57 <Carlos> Carlos has joined #wai-curricula
15:50:11 <Howard_> Shadi: a bit uncomfortable with listing approach.
15:50:20 <Howard_> ... Can see what working group says.
15:50:33 <Howard_> ... Between tab panel and carousel, so much similarity.
15:50:55 <Howard_> ... A fan of teaching concepts where students can apply these concepts
15:51:19 <Howard_> ... elsewhere. Live regions for example. On hand, agrees with Donal's input.
15:51:43 <Howard_> ... Are there other ways to make it clear. Paraphrasing Donal: 'custom widget'
15:51:56 <Howard_> ... is too vague. How can we make it clearer?
15:52:14 <Howard_> ... All agree students should be able to create custom accessible widgets such as
15:52:46 <Howard_> ... buttons. Students should be able to code custom widget practices instead of listing all 27.
15:53:21 <Howard_> ... Don't think designers make the decision on whether to make a custom button, keyboard.
15:53:45 <Howard_> ... These are concepts developers need to master.
15:54:16 <Howard_> ... Perhaps swung too far from concepts to concrete examples.
15:54:26 <Howard_> scribe: shadi
15:54:28 <shadi> scribe: shadi
15:55:15 <shadi> DM: would rolling back to the concepts but adding more relation to the different types of widgets be an acceptable approach?
15:56:14 <shadi> ...add learning outcome at the module level listing the widgets that will be taught
15:56:35 <shadi> ...and focusing the topics more on concepts than on particular widgets
15:58:09 <shadi> DR: got excited by seeing the content at a glance
15:58:30 <shadi> ...then see ARIA Practices has a lot more
15:59:09 <shadi> ...need to keep that at a glance aspect
15:59:43 <Howard_> scribe: Howard
16:00:00 <Howard_> Shadi: Do you think there are design categories in the aria design
16:00:20 <Howard_> ... spec? Example: keyboard interaction such as tree view and tree grid.
16:00:32 <Howard_> ... Would have the keyboard aspect and types of widgets right there.
16:00:55 <Howard_> ... But would need to categorize these concepts/techniques.
16:01:00 <Howard_> scribe: shadi
16:01:46 <shadi> CD: do they have standard HTML equivalents is one question I use to categorize widgets
16:02:15 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#widget_roles
16:02:56 <Howard_> scribe: howard
16:03:11 <Howard_> Shadi: just looked up aria spec itself.
16:03:39 <Howard_> ... Different categories shown on the spec.
16:04:08 <Howard_> ... How to combine teacher and student view. Our ...
16:04:25 <Howard_> primary audience is the teacher. Does subscribe to the "at a glance"
16:04:33 <Howard_> ... approach.
16:04:41 <Howard_> scribe: shadi
16:05:20 <shadi> DM: need to be very clear about the widgets being taught
16:08:26 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:08:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/09/01-wai-curricula-minutes.html dmontalvo
16:17:11 <dmontalvo> s/scribe: Howard/scribe: Howard_/G
16:17:44 <dmontalvo> s/likw/like/
16:17:47 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:17:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/09/01-wai-curricula-minutes.html dmontalvo
16:21:50 <dmontalvo> s/but widgets seems abstract to me/... but widgets seems abstract to me/
16:22:36 <dmontalvo> s/have such examples but now seems quite repetitive/... have such examples but now seems quite repetitive/
16:28:11 <dmontalvo> s/scribe: howard/scribe: Howard_/G
16:28:42 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:28:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/09/01-wai-curricula-minutes.html dmontalvo