15:45:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbg
15:45:42 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/08/25-pbg-irc
15:45:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:45:45 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Business Group
15:46:05 <Ralph> chair: Liisa
15:46:26 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-pbg-minutes.html previous 21-July (NA/EU)
15:46:48 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Aug/0010.html
15:56:17 <Ralph> present+ dauwhe, Ralph
15:59:41 <Ralph> present+ Daihei
15:59:49 <Ralph> present+ WendyReid
16:00:42 <Ralph> present+ Tzviya, Ivan
16:01:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbg
16:01:58 <Ralph> present+ Liisa, BillK
16:02:11 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pbg
16:02:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
16:02:41 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbg
16:02:44 <Ralph> present+ George
16:02:56 <liisamk> present+
16:02:56 <Karen> present+ Karen
16:03:19 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbg
16:03:36 <Daihei> present+
16:04:11 <Ralph> chair: Liisa
16:04:29 <tzviya> q+
16:04:30 <George> George has joined #pbg
16:04:30 <Ralph> topic: EU Text Data Mining Reseration protocol
16:04:37 <Ralph> -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NwtWv_ESS4ZhaHDHWnDSQSJKHrfRmLNjDTPdwNE3aeA/edit "EU TDM Reservation Protocol" [draft]
16:04:57 <Ralph> Liisa: Laurent Lemeur brought this to our attention
16:05:26 <George> present+
16:05:46 <Ralph> ... Cristina noted this raises some concerns for publishers and copyright
16:05:58 <Ralph> ... what users of text data mining will do with content
16:06:08 <Ralph> ... Laurent shared a draft paper with us
16:06:22 <JulieBlair> JulieBlair has joined #pbg
16:06:29 <Ralph> ... thinking about where this impacts people's businesses
16:06:41 <JulieBlair> present+
16:06:52 <Ralph> Tzviya: I've been working on TDM at Wiley and in STM
16:06:53 <liisamk> link to TDM paper - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NwtWv_ESS4ZhaHDHWnDSQSJKHrfRmLNjDTPdwNE3aeA/edit
16:07:04 <Ralph> ... STM is doing a lot of work in conjuction with CrossRef
16:07:16 <Avneesh> I am not able to see passcode in the archived email. Can someone provide me please.
16:07:34 <Ralph> ... so there's something embedded in the metadata to make it clear what the license is and whether there's an exemption
16:07:56 <Ralph> ... what a "scholarly article" is and what an "exemption" means is not currently well-defined
16:08:15 <Ralph> ... you need to allow the user to access the information
16:08:22 <Ralph> ... and some sort of temporary storage is allowed
16:08:28 <Ralph> ... this is of great interest to Wiley
16:09:01 <Ralph> Ralph: is this just an FYI from Laurent or is he proposing some sort of activity?
16:09:10 <Ralph> Liisa: Laurent would like some feedback
16:09:30 <Ralph> ... he had a conflict for today but hopefully we can discuss in future meetings
16:09:38 <Ralph> Tzviya: I'll try to pull together some stuff
16:09:48 <Ralph> ... the solution is very silo'd
16:10:04 <Ralph> ... if metadata can be embedded in some other identifier then perhaps this can be a more universal solution
16:10:14 <Ralph> ... the idea is to add metadata to an identifier
16:10:39 <Ralph> ... if academic and trade publishers do this different from scholarly, that will be a problem
16:10:50 <Ralph> present+ Avneesh, JudyBlair
16:11:05 <Ralph> s/Judy/Julie
16:11:23 <Ralph> Liisa: was anyone else previously aware of this?
16:11:42 <Ralph> ... I suspect there will be feelings about how and where this gets used
16:11:55 <Ralph> ... it will take some discussion
16:12:34 <Ralph> Ralph: who are the people in our community who we'd want to try to get to a future BG discussion?
16:12:51 <Ralph> Liisa: let our members know this is going on
16:12:59 <tzviya> q+
16:13:00 <Ralph> ... and get them to provide feedback to Laurent
16:13:12 <Ralph> ... do we think this is good or bad?
16:13:20 <dauwhe_> q+
16:13:25 <Ralph> ... you need metadata to follow along with the content to allow or disallow
16:13:33 <liisamk> ack tzviya
16:13:40 <Daihei> q+
16:13:41 <Ralph> Tzviya: my impression is that this is in legislation, like GDPR
16:14:08 <Ralph> ... I don't know what exactly this will mean in the world of trade publishing
16:14:29 <Ralph> ... it will be a matter of coming to terms on how we incorporate it into our workflows
16:14:41 <Ralph> ... but I don't think we can opt-out
16:14:42 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
16:14:59 <Ralph> Dave: this feels out of scope for this group to me
16:15:10 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:15:49 <Dan_Sanicola> Dan_Sanicola has joined #pbg
16:15:53 <Ralph> Daihei: from the perspective of Japanese publishers; in the next month or go we will go into deep discussion on how we apply the new EU circumstances in the Japanese industry
16:16:26 <Ralph> ... I'll come back to you with some understanding of how the Japanese publishing industry wants to apply TDM as well as more generically the accessibility situation
16:16:31 <Dan_Sanicola> present+
16:16:32 <liisamk> ack Ralph
16:16:54 <liisamk> q+
16:17:15 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/odrl-vocab/ "ODRL Vocabulary" [W3C Recommendation, 2018]
16:18:35 <Ralph> Ralph: perhaps an overview for BG participants on the use cases that the work is tryng to solve
16:18:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:18:53 <Ralph> Liisa: yes; a use case understanding that we can bring back to our internal teams
16:19:02 <liisamk> ack liisamk
16:19:07 <Ralph> ... companies need to figure this out for themselves but awareness is our job here
16:19:32 <Ralph> Bill: the business issue is not being surprised that your content is being mined without our knowledge, or that you want it to be mined
16:19:44 <Ralph> ... this sounds analogous to the EU accessibility requirements
16:20:06 <Ralph> present+ Dan_Sanicola
16:20:23 <liisamk> ack Bill
16:20:29 <wendyreid> q+
16:20:36 <Ralph> ... the business issue is for publishers not to be unpleasantly surprised
16:20:38 <liisamk> ack wendyreid
16:21:13 <Ralph> Wendy: this may fall into a CG discussion; e.g. adding another metadata property to published workds
16:21:16 <Ralph> s/kds/ks
16:21:23 <Ralph> ... we need use cases
16:21:37 <Ralph> Liisa: we'll ask Laurent to bring us use cases
16:21:58 <Ralph> topic: Audiobook Recommendation status
16:22:21 <Ralph> Wendy: next steps: we're still looking for implementors
16:22:36 <Ralph> ... we got two more pull requests to be added as implementors in the past 24 hours!
16:22:53 <Ralph> ... we're putting together alist of content implementations as well as implementations that are not official yet
16:23:07 <Ralph> ... OBI is officially there as a content-producing implementation
16:23:17 <Ralph> ... I'll be adding Coresource; they plan to implement in Q1 2021
16:23:33 <Ralph> ... I'll be talking with Harper Collins about being listed as a publisher implementor
16:24:01 <Ralph> ... anyone else you know of who is willing to publicly say they're planning to publish in Audiobook form, I'm happy to add
16:24:33 <Ralph> ... we expect to start preparing for a Call for Consensus to advance [to Proposed Recommendation] in September
16:24:45 <Ralph> ... which will put us on track for Recommendation in late November
16:25:12 <Ralph> topic: MathML Refresh
16:25:20 <Ralph> Liisa: should we circulate this information
16:25:25 <Ralph> s/ion/ion?
16:25:35 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/groups/cg/mathml4 MathML Refresh Community Group summary
16:26:00 <wendyreid> scribe+
16:26:17 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mathml4/2020Jul/0028.html "WG draft charter" [Neil Soiffer, 20-July]
16:26:26 <wendyreid> Ralph: Brian Kardell from Igalia gave a presentation on their MathML work at TPAC to the PWG last year
16:26:49 <wendyreid> ... the MathML community group working on the refresh is now discussing a charter for a working group
16:27:12 <wendyreid> ... Brian told us that the CG is identifying the subset of MathML that is both implemented and used
16:27:26 <wendyreid> ... so this isn't redefining MathML, instead trimming it down to make it easier to implement
16:27:48 <Avneesh> MathML WG also includes work on Chemistry
16:27:54 <wendyreid> ... I haven't had the chance to review the draft charter, but MathML is important to this community
16:27:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> There will be two versions, the core "trimmed down" version and the full untrimmed but improved version.
16:28:09 <wendyreid> ... this is something that this community should provide feedback on
16:28:13 <wendyreid> ... bring them use cases
16:28:15 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mathml4/2020Jul/0028.html "WG draft charter" [Neil Soiffer, 20-July]
16:28:43 <liisamk> q+
16:28:44 <wendyreid> ... as we know from the EPUB3 WG charter process, there's a lot of time between starting and shipping a charter
16:28:54 <George> q+
16:28:58 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mathml4/ Public MathML CG list archive
16:29:19 <ivan> q+
16:29:27 <wendyreid> liisamk: Do you think this charter will improve MathML conformance in EPUB?
16:29:30 <liisamk> ack liisamk
16:29:31 <Ralph> Liisa: do we feel there are still challenges in implementing and deploying MathML that will help the WG?
16:29:48 <Ralph> George: in addition to the MathML CG there's a CG on chemistry
16:30:05 <Ralph> ... the Chemistry CG has been working with the MathML CG to add chemical semantics
16:30:16 <wendyreid> q+
16:30:23 <Ralph> ... the first point was to identify the content as chemistry
16:30:52 <Ralph> ... and add metdata suggestions to allow differentation between symbols; e.g. 'K' can be potassium or Kelvin
16:31:00 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:31:06 <Ralph> ... good work in the chemistry domain
16:31:06 <liisamk> ack George
16:31:41 <Ralph> Ivan: looking at the draft charter, it has a goal of two specs:
16:31:59 <Ralph> ... a simplified MathML Core and a MathML 4 that adds terms and features
16:32:12 <Ralph> ... it seems to be a big charter
16:32:34 <Ralph> ... may require a lot of work to shepherd it through the process
16:32:44 <Ralph> ... they have a long road ahead
16:32:54 <liisamk> ack wendyreid
16:33:16 <Ralph> Wendy: from what Brian told us at TPAC last year, the main challenge is not how MathML is referenced
16:33:23 <Ralph> ... but rather on the reading system side
16:33:31 <Ralph> ... webkit doesn't support MathML natively
16:33:40 <Ralph> ... we have to use a library to support it consistently
16:33:53 <Ralph> ... and App Stores get angry if your package size is too large
16:34:22 <Ralph> ... if Igalia's work is adopted by enough browsers, this will be a major change for us
16:34:36 <Ralph> ... support in webkit alone will be great
16:34:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Wendy
16:34:39 <JulieBlair> +1 Wendy
16:34:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> It's a big deal and it's really happening
16:34:53 <tzviya> q+
16:35:00 <Ralph> Liisa: yes; the implementation has always been the struggle
16:35:08 <Ralph> ... there are some issues around authoring too
16:35:33 <Ralph> Wendy: yes; authoring has been a challenge but one of the biggest challenges was lack of interoperability
16:35:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> Would love to stay but have to drop for another meeting
16:35:41 <liisamk> ack Ralph
16:35:55 <ivan> q+
16:36:57 <Ralph> Ralph: It's great that this is happening
16:37:13 <Ralph> George: Mellon Foundation provided the funding to NISO and NISO engaged Igalia
16:37:16 <liisamk> ack tzviya
16:37:29 <Ralph> Tzviya: the integration with CSS and Aria is one of the more important aspects
16:37:49 <Ralph> ... the charter has so much in it; it might need to be trimmed
16:37:59 <guillian_hetzler> guillian_hetzler has joined #pbg
16:38:10 <Ralph> ... integrating MathML into Aria will be very useful and important
16:39:35 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:40:05 <Ralph> Ivan: early feedback on the CG's draft charter would be useful
16:40:27 <Ralph> ... a clear standard for what is implemented to have a core
16:40:32 <Avneesh> q+
16:40:51 <Ralph> ... until that is done, extending beyond what's in MathML 3 seems a recipe for problem
16:41:02 <liisamk> ack Avneesh
16:41:13 <Ralph> present+ Guillian_Hetzler
16:42:10 <Ralph> Avneesh: it seems that Chrome may ship something within a year
16:42:55 <Ralph> ... the charter has many deliverables; we need to help them streamline
16:43:42 <Ralph> Ralph: we need to know what the publishing community feels should be streamlined
16:44:27 <Ralph> topic: Use cases and content types
16:44:35 <Ralph> Liisa: we'd like a TF in the CG for three content types:
16:44:41 <Ralph> ... FXL + reflow
16:44:53 <Ralph> ... what kinds of publications would benefit from being able to combine these?
16:45:02 <Ralph> ... Fullpage image + Reflow
16:45:15 <Ralph> ... where the image could vary depending on the screen
16:45:25 <Ralph> ... mix of FXL and Reflow in a single file
16:45:36 <Ralph> ... so the reading system can select
16:46:05 <Ralph> ... Daihei noted that this would be useful to the web comics publishers, so people could see something as if it were Reflow
16:46:19 <Ralph> ... get a discussion going to see how these things might be implemented
16:46:36 <Ralph> ... should we start a document and start sharing stuff?
16:46:51 <liisamk> ack Ralph
16:47:06 <wendyreid> Ralph: Part of the function of the BG is to find people who ought to be participating in these conversations
16:47:10 <wendyreid> ... whatever it takes
16:47:19 <wendyreid> q+
16:47:26 <liisamk> ack wendyreid
16:47:41 <Ralph> Wendy: I struggle with this
16:47:50 <Ralph> ... they are all already EPUB features and in the spec
16:47:53 <Ralph> ... in the spine
16:48:03 <Ralph> ... is this a CG thing to understand the use cases?
16:48:15 <Ralph> ... so the spec properly communicates how to do it
16:48:29 <Ralph> ... it's not as clear in the spec as it needs to be
16:48:46 <Ralph> ... maybe a GitHub thread on use cases is enough; it might not need to be a full Task Force
16:48:56 <Ralph> ... we need to understand what people are trying to do and how we are failing them
16:49:13 <Ralph> Liisa: I said "task force" because that's what the CG chairs proposed the way the CG will work
16:49:45 <Ralph> ... use cases are helpful; when there's a better understanding that it works and how, it can come back to the BG to help the reading systems understand how much content there will be
16:50:01 <Ralph> ... putting together som euse cases and handing them off
16:50:11 <Ralph> ... showing what works, what works with some tweaking
16:50:15 <Avneesh> q+
16:50:17 <Daihei> q+
16:50:18 <Ralph> ... will help push the conversations
16:50:25 <liisamk> ack Avneesh
16:50:31 <Ralph> Avneesh: technically this is in the standard
16:50:44 <Ralph> ... but it would be good to have some sample content and best practices
16:51:00 <Ralph> ... people start implementing more easily with sample code
16:51:10 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:51:13 <Ralph> Daihei: the issues here are ...
16:51:31 <Ralph> ... whether it's a formal TF or not, we should explore use cases and samples
16:51:40 <Ralph> ... these subjects will help contribute to the advancement of business
16:51:44 <Ralph> ... expansion of business
16:51:57 <Ralph> ... I would like to see Publishing@W3C help get such contributions
16:52:21 <Ralph> ... as you know, manga is a key element of digital publishing in Japan; 85% of the business is manga
16:52:49 <Ralph> ... @@ is making a big impact on manga in Japan
16:53:08 <Ralph> ... the form of FXL rendering is going to be a key issue for digital publishing around the world
16:53:21 <Ralph> ... the example cases could be really helpful
16:53:31 <wendyreid> s/@@/webtoons/
16:53:33 <Ralph> ... and W3C's presence will be really appreaciated
16:53:49 <Ralph> Tzviya: do we have a method for documenting these use cases?
16:53:53 <Ralph> Liisa: GitHub ?
16:54:46 <Ralph> Ralph: we can ask around the Team for patterns for gathering use cases
16:55:22 <Ralph> topic:  PBG Meetings during TPAC
16:55:45 <Ralph> Liisa: Daihei, Cristina, and I would to propose that we have two BG meetings on the same day as part of TPAC
16:55:56 <Ralph> ... two 90-minute meetings on the 13th
16:56:04 <Ralph> ... what big topics should we discuss there?
16:56:18 <Ralph> ... should we propose cross-group meetings there?
16:56:31 <Ralph> s/13th/13th of October
16:57:15 <Ralph> Ivan: the EPUB WG needs to plan its virtual F2F
16:57:30 <Ralph> ... it's like to meet for several days
16:58:04 <Ralph> Wendy: I proposed some dates
16:58:17 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2020/GroupMeetings TPAC Group Meetings scheduling wiki
16:58:28 <Ralph> ... 19 to 23rd
16:59:26 <Avneesh> Oct 26 week should be week of breakout sessions
16:59:42 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/10/TPAC/#schedule TPAC 2020 schedule
17:02:38 <Ralph> Ralph: we're asked to keep the week of 12-16 October free for joint group meetings
17:02:52 <Ralph> ... so the PBG meeting on the 13th isn't necessarily a show-stopper
17:03:16 <Ralph> ... but some of our participants and hoped-for observers may have conficts with scheduled joint meetings
17:03:21 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2020/GroupMeetings
17:03:39 <Ralph> Daihei: we'll come back with a proposed agenda
17:04:04 <Ralph> [adjourned]
17:04:08 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
17:04:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, Ralph, Daihei, WendyReid, Tzviya, Ivan, Liisa, BillK, Bill_Kasdorf, George, liisamk, Karen, JulieBlair, Avneesh, JudyBlair,
17:04:11 <Zakim> ... Dan_Sanicola, Guillian_Hetzler
17:04:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:04:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/08/25-pbg-minutes.html Zakim
17:04:13 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:04:17 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg