13:43:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pwe
13:43:28 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/08/11-pwe-irc
13:43:48 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pwe
13:43:52 <tzviya> meeting: PWE
13:44:00 <tzviya> date: 2020-08-11
13:44:05 <tzviya> Chair: Tzviya
13:55:50 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/07/28-pwe-minutes.html previous 28-July
13:55:55 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
13:56:04 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2020Aug/0003.html
13:56:26 <Ralph> agenda+ Training - PWE Roadmap Training section
13:56:32 <Ralph> agenda+ CEPC Training
13:58:26 <Ralph> present+ Tzviya, Jory, Ralph
13:58:42 <joryburson> joryburson has joined #pwe
13:58:51 <joryburson> present+
13:59:33 <tzviya> regrets+ wendyReid
13:59:33 <Ralph> regrets+ WendReid
13:59:54 <tzviya> regrets+ AdaRoseCannon
14:01:23 <Ralph> present+ Judy
14:01:30 <Ralph> present+ Hober
14:02:06 <jeff> present+
14:02:13 <Ralph> scribe+
14:03:08 <Ralph> zakim, next item
14:03:08 <nigel> nigel has joined #pwe
14:03:08 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Training - PWE Roadmap Training section" taken up [from Ralph]
14:03:26 <Ralph> Tzviya: thanks to Judy for putting together most of the materials in the roadmap
14:03:26 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/wiki/PWE-Roadmap
14:03:37 <Ralph> -> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/wiki/PWE-Roadmap PWE Roadmap
14:03:59 <Ralph> Judy: Wendy and I met a little over a week ago
14:04:13 <Ralph> ... she wanted to ask us to be careful about indicating that what's in the Roadmap are a draft
14:04:19 <Ralph> ... as we're doing our planning in public space
14:04:28 <Ralph> s/Wendy/Wendy Seltzer
14:04:38 <Ralph> ... this is exploratory
14:05:25 <Ralph> Tzviya: also, on the -> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/wiki/CEPC-Training-Plan CEPC Training Plan
14:05:33 <Ralph> ... I wanted to talk about approaches to training
14:05:48 <Ralph> ... who might provide it
14:05:52 <Ralph> ... and share resources
14:06:19 <Ralph> present+ WendySeltzer
14:06:20 <wseltzer> wseltzer has joined #pwe
14:06:38 <wseltzer> present+
14:06:44 <Ralph> Judy: I talked with one training provider to get an idea of how the industry works and what their offerings are
14:06:49 <Ralph> ... I can talk with others as well
14:07:51 <Ralph> Jory: to what extent are we trying to think of the training component as training on our own expectations for our CEPC and culture
14:08:04 <Ralph> ... vs a series of trainings that are more widely applicable
14:08:12 <Ralph> ... e.g. trainings on using inclusive language
14:08:19 <Ralph> ... which flavor do we want to tackle first?
14:08:23 <Ralph> Tzviya: we need to do both
14:08:23 <jeff> q+ to address Jory's question
14:08:24 <Judy> Judy has joined #pwe
14:08:29 <Ralph> ... not use inclusive language
14:08:43 <Ralph> ... how to handle CEPC violations as well
14:08:50 <Ralph> s/not use/not just
14:08:57 <Judy> q+
14:08:59 <Ralph> ... and there's the de-escalation module you've worked on
14:09:06 <Ralph> ... there are a bunch of training modules
14:09:14 <tzviya> ack jeff
14:09:14 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to address Jory's question
14:09:24 <Ralph> ... one of our discussions should be which modules we want and which come first
14:09:36 <Ralph> Jeff: from my perspective the priority is on training the new CEPC
14:09:41 <Ralph> ... ideally that should be done by TPAC
14:09:57 <Ralph> .. for context: the AB is having a conversation about whether the AB should be role models in the new CEPC
14:10:05 <tzviya> q+ to ask jeff what he thinks the cepc training should include
14:10:30 <Ralph> ... the attempt to get the AB to be role models seems difficult; many feel that everybody should equally be role models and that it would be a mistake to call out the AB as role models
14:10:46 <Ralph> ... so we have 10k people in the community who would then be expectec to be role models
14:11:03 <Ralph> ... few of them are even aware of the new CEPC
14:11:17 <tzviya> ack Judy
14:11:21 <Ralph> ... we need to have materials out in some fashion before TPAC to start educating the very large community
14:11:39 <Ralph> Judy: this is a nice opportunity to have the new CEPC and organizational interest in training on it
14:11:47 <joryburson> q+ to say goal prior  to tpac should focus on awareness
14:11:53 <Ralph> ... we have an opportunity to reach potentially very large numbers of folk
14:12:19 <Ralph> ... we would benefit from using pilot groups to improve the material to land well for the broader community
14:12:21 <jeff> +1 to Judy
14:12:52 <Ralph> ... I've been thinking of concentric circles: staff, leadership {chairs, TF chairs, AB, TAG}, ...
14:13:10 <Ralph> ... we might even start by inviting some people from different communities for a first pass
14:13:17 <Ralph> ... and include international representation
14:13:33 <Ralph> ... maybe layer: groups that we want to actively train in some depth and others we want to inform and orient
14:13:46 <Ralph> ... the inform and orient part could be quick
14:14:09 <Ralph> ... even get something in place in September
14:14:19 <tzviya> ack me
14:14:19 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask jeff what he thinks the cepc training should include
14:14:30 <Ralph> ... I was encouraged to hear from one business how they would go about scaling
14:14:39 <Ralph> Tzviya: I'm all for raising awareness on the CEPC
14:14:58 <Ralph> ... if people need more clarity on what the document means, we could have a session on that
14:15:06 <Judy> q+
14:15:14 <Ralph> ... if people just need a walk-through, that would be quick to develop
14:15:15 <tzviya> ack joryburson
14:15:15 <Zakim> joryburson, you wanted to say goal prior  to tpac should focus on awareness
14:15:25 <jeff> q+ to respond to what training can include
14:15:33 <Ralph> ... we need training on procedures and we do not have procedures in place
14:15:40 <Ralph> Jory: we need some goal posts
14:16:12 <Ralph> ... if the goal is simply to ensire that as many of the 10k as possible have been made aware of the new CEPC, have it in front of them, have the opportunity to watch a video describing its purpose
14:16:19 <Ralph> ... that's something we can accomplish by end of October
14:16:33 <wseltzer> q+
14:16:41 <tzviya> ack Judy
14:16:50 <Ralph> ... on the next-level questions that we expect people to ask about procedures we can't do until we have the procedures
14:16:59 <Ralph> Judy: we won't have the procedures in place for a while
14:17:14 <Ralph> ... and we don't want to miss the early training opportunity
14:17:53 <Ralph> ... see the section on training approaches in the CEPC Training Plan
14:18:16 <Ralph> ... can we do more than just send a link and ask people to read?
14:18:33 <Ralph> ... offer a walkthrough that people could do at their own time and pace?
14:18:52 <Ralph> ... a 50-minute chunk with a high-level message and then a walk-through
14:19:04 <Ralph> ... even just a narrated explanation tied to the goals of the organization
14:19:20 <Ralph> ... with links to additional resources
14:19:29 <Ralph> ... a closing statement or a few recap questions
14:19:39 <tzviya> q?
14:20:47 <Ralph> ... we could also have live sessions; we have a lot of different options to reach people virtually
14:20:50 <tzviya> ack jeff
14:20:50 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to respond to what training can include
14:21:33 <Ralph> Jeff: the question on training prior to Procedures raises the question of how revolutionary this CEPC might really be
14:21:40 <tzviya> +1 to judy's proposal
14:22:29 <Ralph> ... the Expected Behaviors includes [new material]
14:22:30 <tzviya> q+ to talk about next steps
14:22:34 <tzviya> ack wseltzer
14:22:36 <Ralph> ... we really have a revolutionary code
14:22:44 <Ralph> ... if we're serious about it we should train on it
14:22:53 <Judy> s/or a few recap questions/or a few recap questions; and interestingly, this is somewhat similar to what a professional firm described as their approach/
14:23:02 <Ralph> WSeltzer: let's start with easy stuff
14:23:11 <Ralph> ... send emails with excerpts of highlights from the CEPC
14:23:25 <Ralph> ... "your dailly burst on Getting to Know the new CoC"
14:23:28 <joryburson> we could do tweets!
14:23:32 <Judy> q+
14:23:36 <Ralph> ... this doesn't exclude other in-depth training
14:23:37 <Ralph> Jory: +1
14:23:49 <Ralph> Tzviya: Every Tuesday CEPC !
14:23:50 <Judy> q+ to wonder about the importance of reading things in context
14:23:52 <tzviya> ack Judy
14:23:52 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to wonder about the importance of reading things in context
14:24:18 <Ralph> Tzviya: I think a one-hour walkthrough would be useful
14:24:49 <Ralph> ... and give some scenarios
14:24:59 <Ralph> ... to hammer the concepts home
14:25:05 <Ralph> ... I think we could do that ourselves
14:25:09 <joryburson> happy to help
14:25:10 <tzviya> q?
14:25:13 <tzviya> ack me
14:25:13 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about next steps
14:25:35 <Ralph> Judy: reflecting on what it would be like to get weekly snippets of CEPC
14:25:55 <Ralph> ... one worry I have is that we talked a fair amount about the sequence of material
14:26:22 <Ralph> ... particularly in trying to reach audiences who may not have thought about this before, the context of the whole thing is important
14:26:31 <Ralph> ... I hope people would first get it in some kind of shared context
14:26:48 <jeff> q+ to mention the possibility of cascading through chairs
14:26:59 <Ralph> ... many parts of this may seem radical to us but would not to other organizations who have developed Codes of Conduct
14:27:15 <tzviya> ack jeff
14:27:15 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to mention the possibility of cascading through chairs
14:27:51 <Ralph> Jeff: there's a lot more here than people were previously trained on
14:28:34 <Ralph> ... on smaller test groups, as Judy mentioned, it would be reasonable to reach out to our groups and let them know we're up-leveling our sensitivity
14:29:07 <tzviya> q+
14:29:14 <Ralph> ... we can't force them to attend a training session but it would be really nice if the chairs themselves would take it and encourage their groups at their next group call to take it
14:29:23 <tzviya> ack me
14:29:27 <Ralph> ... this is one approach to get to the larger audience
14:29:44 <Ralph> Tzviya: that gets to the question of who is invited to trainings
14:29:52 <Ralph> ... it's not a good idea to invite only chairs
14:30:00 <Judy> q+
14:30:10 <tzviya> ack ju
14:30:37 <Ralph> Judy: my eventual goal is to have something that can be re-used often
14:30:47 <Ralph> ... and therefore is in a video [recorded] format
14:30:50 <wseltzer> q+ re "minimum viable"
14:31:04 <Ralph> .. record a live session in case that's what we'd want to re-use
14:31:23 <Ralph> ... and ask the pilot test group to stay afterward to give feedback
14:31:42 <Ralph> ... something that is scalable without requiring presenters to be available at various times around the globe
14:31:55 <Ralph> s/.. record/... record
14:32:08 <wseltzer> q-
14:32:17 <Ralph> ... a module on "managing bias" would also be potentially useful to us
14:33:19 <Ralph> Tzviya: CEPC Awareness is something that makes sense for this group to do
14:33:53 <Ralph> ... we can work out timing for Americas/Europe and Asia live sessions
14:34:18 <hober> hober has joined #pwe
14:34:18 <Ralph> Jeff: if we get this done by October 1, we're solidly ahead of TPAC
14:34:35 <Ralph> Tzviya: so we have about a month to prepare
14:34:44 <Ralph> ... I'm willing to work on this, with help
14:34:47 <Ralph> Judy: me too
14:34:50 <Ralph> Jory: me too
14:35:03 <jeff> Jeff: me too
14:35:05 <Ralph> <ralph> happy to help with what I can
14:35:23 <Ralph> Jory: folks here can take turns speaking to specific pieces of the document
14:35:41 <hober> present+
14:35:44 <Ralph> ... there's more you'd want to do in the form of exercises to make the material stick
14:36:37 <Ralph> ... I'm happy to help
14:36:55 <Ralph> Tzviya: who would we invite to the initial session?
14:37:07 <Ralph> Judy: for me, a pilot group is a priority
14:37:32 <Ralph> ... it would be extremely helpful to especially look for diversity in this pilot group
14:37:45 <Ralph> ... I'd love to get some active TF facilitators, active CG chairs
14:38:15 <Ralph> ... I'd hope that some AB and TAG would be willing to participate
14:38:20 <Ralph> ... to get diverse feedback
14:38:27 <jeff> q+
14:38:37 <jeff> q-
14:39:45 <jeff> q+ to comment on Judy's tiers
14:39:55 <joryburson> q+ to ask what the SWBAT is after this first training
14:39:58 <tzviya> ack je
14:39:58 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to comment on Judy's tiers
14:40:00 <Ralph> .. there are a variety of roles in which people act on behalf of W3C
14:40:16 <Ralph> Jeff: I like Judy's tiering of folk
14:40:39 <Ralph> ... tier 1: pilot group -- early September makes sense to me
14:40:58 <Ralph> ... tier 2: W3C Responsible Folk -- would be great to have them trained by TPAC
14:40:59 <tzviya> q?
14:41:29 <tzviya> ack joryburson
14:41:29 <Zakim> joryburson, you wanted to ask what the SWBAT is after this first training
14:41:34 <Ralph> ... tier 3: Everyone Else -- would be great to make them aware with full training later
14:41:38 <Ralph> Judy: +1
14:41:55 <Ralph> Jory: for tier 1, I don't yet have a grasp on what students will be able to do
14:42:02 <Ralph> ... that focuses content and learning objectives
14:42:15 <Ralph> ... can we discuss that for a few minutes now?
14:42:43 <Judy> q+
14:42:58 <Ralph> Tzviya: for the awareness session we're just asking them to be familiar with CEPC and if they recognize a situation to pull themselves out
14:43:08 <tzviya> ack ju
14:43:10 <Ralph> ... maybe even as a bystander stop somebody else but maybe that's asking too much
14:43:19 <Ralph> Judy: I don't think that's too much to ask
14:43:25 <Ralph> ... 3 goals off the top of my head:
14:44:01 <Ralph> ... 1. if some were to happen, what do I do?  -- aware of the policy and be able to point someone to an Ombuds
14:44:17 <Ralph> ... 2. if they witness something happening, they have some idea that as a bystander there's something they can do
14:44:39 <Ralph> ... 3. if someone is in a difficult situation themselves they can look at whether it falls within CEPC
14:44:52 <jeff> q+
14:45:05 <tzviya> ack je
14:45:18 <Ralph> Jeff: +1 to those as second-level goals
14:45:24 <Ralph> ... but we need some primary goals as well:
14:45:33 <Ralph> ... explain to people what we're trying to achieve as a community
14:45:43 <Ralph> ... reminders of the basic values: respect
14:45:59 <Ralph> ... in the heat of the moment things happen, be able to address those gracefully and move forward
14:46:25 <Ralph> ... there's a higher-level framework of what we're trying to achieve with this new Code even before we get into the things Judy mentioned
14:46:54 <Ralph> Tzviya: I agree the "what to do when you've made a mistake" is an important section but I hesitate to focus on it too much
14:47:19 <Ralph> ... my concern is that if we focus on that, people will fixate on that and say "but I apologized"
14:47:28 <Ralph> ... things may seem minor that aren't
14:47:52 <Ralph> ... people who have been violated might not be able to just move on
14:48:13 <Ralph> Judy: on how to make things stick ...
14:48:20 <Ralph> ... we don't know anything about efficacy
14:48:26 <Ralph> ... nor does the field as a whole
14:49:00 <Ralph> ... I think it's possible that we could do training that would have no effect and we'd not know it
14:49:02 <joryburson> q+ to say efficacy is hard but one way to measure is how people share after the fact
14:49:17 <Ralph> ... I'm trying to learn more about what is known and not known about efficacy of training
14:49:25 <Ralph> ... what improves the situation in various organizations
14:49:42 <Ralph> ... is there interest in outsourcing training to an organization with experience in this?
14:50:34 <Ralph> ... we may so need something customized that we can't do that
14:50:34 <tzviya> ack joryburson
14:50:34 <Zakim> joryburson, you wanted to say efficacy is hard but one way to measure is how people share after the fact
14:50:51 <Ralph> Tzviya: I doubt that it makes sense in our case to outsource to a third party
14:51:17 <Ralph> Jory: given our timeline it would be harder to get a third party
14:51:38 <Ralph> ... one goal is to get people excited after the class to share their experience
14:51:39 <tzviya> s/I doubt that it makes sense in our case to outsource to a third party/I doubt that it makes sense to outsource CEPC training to a third party, but we should consider for additional training
14:52:10 <Ralph> ... reports that attendees have shared with their colleagues is better evidence that they appreciated the material
14:52:25 <tzviya> q?
14:52:28 <Ralph> ... this would be the metric I encourage us to use
14:52:48 <Ralph> Tzviya: I believe that is already happening with our CEPC; I've heard from a few companies that they're using it
14:53:22 <Ralph> ... summarizing ...
14:53:36 <Ralph> ... we've committed to doing training to a pilot group
14:53:38 <jeff> q+
14:53:43 <Ralph> ... we need to discuss who is in that pilot group
14:53:47 <Ralph> ... we need to start scheduling nwo
14:53:50 <Ralph> s/nwo/now
14:53:58 <Ralph> ... who can work on the scheduling?
14:54:37 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/wiki/CEPC-Training-Plan#possible-tiered-phased-training
14:55:06 <Ralph> Judy: I've updated ^^
14:55:24 <Ralph> ... does anything here not reflect our consensus so far?
14:56:09 <Ralph> Judy: the last section of -> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/wiki/PWE-Roadmap#training "PWE Roadmap" is about training
14:56:18 <Ralph> ... people are welcome to comment on the expanded workplan
14:56:45 <Ralph> ... I prefer that we talk about things here before adding to the public page
14:57:37 <Ralph> Tzviya: let's give some thought for next time about what other sorts of training we want; diversity, ...
14:58:12 <Ralph> Judy: what do we need from W3M?
14:58:16 <Ralph> ... we could give them an update
14:58:22 <Ralph> Jeff: certainly updates are in order
14:58:38 <Ralph> ... if we want something by early September we need to delegate who is in charge of building this training pilot
14:58:50 <Ralph> ... if it's Judy, she needs to know who of us are available to help her
14:59:02 <Ralph> ... I recommend another checkpoint on the 25th
14:59:03 <jeff> q-
14:59:11 <Ralph> Judy: I already have some ideas based on conversations so far
14:59:27 <Ralph> ... somebody to do an intro piece; e.g. Jeff -- 3-4 minutes
14:59:39 <Ralph> ... maybe Tzviya to do the walk-through for 20 minutes
15:00:04 <Ralph> ... and I'd like to brainstorm with Jory about what sort of exercises would work in a canned recording
15:00:26 <Ralph> ... close with an offer to do topic-specific trainings; e.g. on de-escalation.  I don't yet have an idea on that
15:00:38 <Ralph> Tzviya: that's pretty much what I had pictured
15:00:58 <Ralph> ... Judy, Jory, and I will need to schedule time to plan
15:01:04 <joryburson> I have to drop but would also like to talk about doing the de-escalation training at TPAC at the next meeting
15:02:47 <joryburson> https://hackmd.io/@ra-6t4fuRmeQNH1J5Rzv3A/BysHpmefP
15:03:03 <joryburson> that is a hackmd with the start of the lesson plan
15:03:06 <Ralph> Tzviya: my biggest worry is how to approach an international audience
15:04:15 <Ralph> [adjourned]
15:04:21 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
15:04:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tzviya, Jory, Ralph, joryburson, Judy, Hober, jeff, WendySeltzer, wseltzer
15:04:23 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:04:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/08/11-pwe-minutes.html Zakim
15:04:26 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:04:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwe
16:27:27 <Ralph> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:27:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/08/11-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
16:35:06 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:35:06 <RRSAgent> I see no action items