19:55:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwg
19:55:51 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-irc
19:56:09 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, make logs public
19:56:21 <PWinstanley> chair: PWinstanley
19:56:33 <PWinstanley> regrets+ RiccardoAlbertoni
19:56:56 <PWinstanley> meeting: DXWG Plenary
19:57:21 <PWinstanley> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2020.07.21
19:59:59 <kcoyle> kcoyle has joined #dxwg
20:00:30 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwg
20:00:54 <roba> roba has joined #dxwg
20:01:09 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dxwg
20:02:18 <ana> ana has joined #dxwg
20:04:14 <kcoyle> present+
20:04:36 <PWinstanley> present+
20:04:37 <annette_g> present+
20:04:51 <kcoyle> scribenick: kcoyle
20:05:00 <AndreaPerego_> AndreaPerego_ has joined #dxwg
20:05:13 <AndreaPerego_> trackbot, start meeting
20:05:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:05:19 <trackbot> Meeting: Dataset Exchange Working Group Teleconference
20:05:19 <trackbot> Date: 21 July 2020
20:05:28 <ana> present+
20:05:35 <AndreaPerego_> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2020.07.21
20:05:37 <PWinstanley> proposed:  Accept minutes https://www.w3.org/2020/07/07-dxwg-minutes
20:05:56 <kcoyle> topic: admin
20:06:26 <AndreaPerego_> +1
20:06:35 <ana> +1
20:06:54 <annette_g> +1
20:07:20 <roba> the meetings link from the Meetings page was changes and goes to an outdated Zoom link, still trying to find the old webex link
20:07:20 <PWinstanley> 0 not there
20:07:43 <kcoyle> +1
20:07:59 <kcoyle> resolved: accept minutes of last meeting
20:08:01 <AndreaPerego> present+
20:08:11 <PWinstanley> accepted:  Accept minutes https://www.w3.org/2020/07/07-dxwg-minutes
20:08:19 <PWinstanley> resolved:  Accept minutes https://www.w3.org/2020/07/07-dxwg-minutes
20:08:41 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:08:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:08:44 <kcoyle> topic: Summer break
20:09:05 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: general proposal: take much of August off, using only email in that time
20:09:06 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:09:10 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:09:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:09:12 <roba> present+
20:09:17 <ana> I can connect on Webex
20:09:19 <kcoyle> ... much of Europe will be off during August
20:09:23 <ana> can't*
20:09:38 <kcoyle> ... DCAT group has already decided to be off during August; will do a sprint in September
20:09:52 <kcoyle> ... How about this?
20:09:56 <annette_g> +1 for a break
20:11:22 <kcoyle> roba: sounds fine. will bring some prof and conneg issues shortly, and this needs plenary
20:11:30 <kcoyle> ... work on these will go on
20:11:49 <kcoyle> ... correction: needs working group, not plenary
20:12:19 <PWinstanley> Proposed:  Take August as holiday
20:12:23 <PWinstanley> +1
20:12:25 <annette_g> +1
20:12:28 <ana> +1
20:12:28 <AndreaPerego> +1
20:12:30 <kcoyle> +1
20:12:42 <roba> +1
20:12:43 <PWinstanley> resolved:  Take August as holiday
20:12:51 <AndreaPerego> s/... correction: needs working group, not plenary//
20:12:57 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:12:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:13:31 <AndreaPerego> s/plenary/working group/
20:13:32 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:13:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:14:06 <ana> I'm with difficult here, but I can follow the scribe
20:14:23 <kcoyle> topic: Conneg
20:14:26 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:14:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:14:55 <kcoyle> roba: been following the IETF work; another working group has proposed to IETF regarding link hints (?)
20:15:12 <kcoyle> ... but our document waits on that decision
20:15:44 <kcoyle> ... need to discuss further making the http header non-normative; not needed for implementation
20:16:11 <kcoyle> ... so conneg not becomes fragile when IETF changes happen
20:16:41 <kcoyle> ... will do a Doodle poll for a meeting to decide this
20:16:49 <kcoyle> ... should happen next week
20:17:19 <kcoyle> ... could do the work in August and bring back to plenary in September
20:17:31 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: what is IETF attitude?
20:17:49 <kcoyle> roba: hard to characterize; challenge aligning this with some new work
20:18:18 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: problem that non-normative things can lead to fragmentation or practice
20:18:39 <kcoyle> ... your reason for going non-normative?
20:18:58 <AndreaPerego> q+ to ask roba if the IETF group he mentioned is the one working on https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-wilde-linkset-06.html
20:19:28 <kcoyle> roba: mainly timing; doesn't change things functionally, not a problem for implementations; could end up with
20:20:05 <kcoyle> ... minor technical difference between documents; better to say to check the IETF doc for normative
20:20:06 <PWinstanley> ack AndreaPerego
20:20:06 <Zakim> AndreaPerego, you wanted to ask roba if the IETF group he mentioned is the one working on https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-wilde-linkset-06.html
20:20:47 <kcoyle> AndreaPerego: you mentioned group in IETF - is it the group doing the linkset, as I typed above
20:21:04 <kcoyle> ... is their work relevant for us?
20:21:44 <kcoyle> roba: our link header syntax would have to follow this; impacts only the syntax of the link response
20:22:06 <kcoyle> ... that is enough to break implementations if we also go for normative in that area
20:22:13 <kcoyle> ... we need to discuss that
20:22:34 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: who is the poll for?
20:22:48 <kcoyle> roba: this working group, anyone who wants to respond
20:23:08 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: is there scope for guest involvement?
20:23:33 <kcoyle> ... do you think the current approach would come back to IETF ever?
20:24:20 <kcoyle> roba: strategy is to keep them aligned; current work doesn't assume http header live in the wild immediatelyt
20:24:55 <kcoyle> roba: can we have a point of order to extend invitation outside of it?
20:25:28 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: working group is small so reaching out is good; we just can't vote on normative things with outsiders
20:25:36 <kcoyle> ... this could be another kind of input
20:26:04 <annette_g> q+
20:26:18 <kcoyle> roba: plenary decides if we should widen poll; we can still do work if we don't get a response early enough
20:26:26 <PWinstanley> ack annette_g
20:26:28 <kcoyle> ... could be for a later time
20:26:34 <annette_g> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-link-hint/?include_text=1
20:26:49 <kcoyle> annette_g: which ietf practice is at issue -
20:27:00 <kcoyle> roba: yes, the link-hint is it
20:27:58 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: what about having guest appearances?
20:28:04 <kcoyle> q+
20:28:07 <roba> expires sept by the way..
20:28:10 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:28:25 <PWinstanley> kcoyle: do we need to check with PLH?
20:28:41 <PWinstanley> ... we would/might be using W3C resources
20:28:42 <annette_g> license issues
20:29:09 <annette_g> q+
20:29:12 <kcoyle> roba: can take action to ask Philippe
20:29:15 <PWinstanley> ack annette_g
20:29:34 <kcoyle> annette_g: group operates in public anyway, so probably no problem
20:30:02 <kcoyle> +1
20:31:11 <PWinstanley> proposed: to investigate scope for involving other tech experts as guests in the conneg one-off meeting and proceed if W3C OK
20:31:19 <kcoyle> +1
20:31:20 <AndreaPerego> +1
20:31:22 <PWinstanley> +1
20:31:24 <annette_g> +1
20:31:25 <roba> +1
20:31:32 <PWinstanley> resolved: to investigate scope for involving other tech experts as guests in the conneg one-off meeting and proceed if W3C OK
20:31:39 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:31:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:32:00 <PWinstanley> action: roba to discuss guest involvement at conneg one-off meeting
20:32:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-429 - Discuss guest involvement at conneg one-off meeting [on Rob Atkinson - due 2020-07-28].
20:32:57 <kcoyle> roba: have implementations that will be pushed into production; for OGC usage
20:33:01 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: how widely used?
20:33:48 <kcoyle> roba: most being done on profile description side; have 3-4 projects creating profiles and manage related resources
20:34:08 <kcoyle> ... intention is to link into projects through w3id.org
20:34:32 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: can we get  info on real traffic?
20:35:08 <kcoyle> roba: using for publishing heterogeneous models; projects running for next 3 years
20:35:24 <kcoyle> ... not clear when this data will be generated
20:35:46 <kcoyle> topic: PROF
20:35:51 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:35:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:36:24 <kcoyle> roba: also here need a doodle poll for a prof discussion; now have more implementation experience
20:36:32 <kcoyle> ... no proposed changes
20:36:39 <roba> https://www.w3.org/TR/?title=registry
20:36:51 <kcoyle> ... only emergence of w3c registry approach, so want to move roles to registry
20:37:02 <AndreaPerego> q+
20:37:06 <kcoyle> ... they'd come out of the normative portion of the document
20:37:41 <kcoyle> ... currently 6-8 roles, a few others identified during implementation; need work on definitions
20:38:17 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: have plenary look at the list of roles; may have others
20:38:37 <kcoyle> ... need to pass the 'bloody obvious' test ;-)
20:38:54 <kcoyle> ... need to be sure the categories make sense to a larger group
20:39:25 <kcoyle> roba: best to put them into different lifecycles
20:39:50 <kcoyle> q+
20:39:59 <PWinstanley> ack AndreaPerego
20:40:24 <kcoyle> AndreaPerego: not clear on how community manages resources with this practice
20:40:42 <kcoyle> ... would it be a community group that maintains the list of profiles?
20:41:28 <roba> https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-eme-stream-registry-20160915/
20:41:41 <kcoyle> ... also, how is the registry going to work? e.g. as in bibref, how will registry going to governed?
20:42:10 <kcoyle> roba: philippe has been giving advice so we will follow w3c practice; see document above as an example
20:42:30 <kcoyle> ... this is just separating the role list from the data model
20:42:47 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:43:51 <PWinstanley> kcoyle: does the group need to take a decision that the data model of PROF is mature at v1, and that the changes are related only to the roles categories, because there are github issues that are still open
20:44:02 <kcoyle> roba: there is one open issue for the model - e.g. name changes
20:44:27 <kcoyle> ... one change would make one property a subproperty of rdfs:??
20:44:28 <PWinstanley> roba: there is one open github issue relating to the model.  one change is to make a change to isDefinedBy
20:44:43 <kcoyle> q+
20:44:54 <PWinstanley> ... there is another about including a property chain axiom in order to clarify intent
20:45:25 <AndreaPerego> s/bibref/SpecRef/
20:45:29 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:45:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:46:12 <PWinstanley> ... github issues are still the route to engaging with discussion about the core model, and this is still open for people to use.  There is always the point of the role of guidance to show how aspects of the data model can be used to its fullest
20:46:41 <PWinstanley> ... Extensive use has shown the model to be robust
20:47:00 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:47:54 <PWinstanley> kcoyle: There are many issues then that need to be re-visited and closed if they actually have been dealt with (e.g. if they relate to other data models)
20:47:56 <kcoyle> https://github.com/w3c/dx-prof/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+sort%3Acomments-desc
20:48:11 <PWinstanley> q+
20:49:03 <PWinstanley> kcoyle: do we go ahead and close these open issues, thereby fixing the core data model?
20:50:17 <PWinstanley> ... The group needs to make a decision about closing issues so that we are certain about the future direction
20:51:45 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: lay out in the agenda issues that are about to be closed so that group can review and raise any objections
20:51:57 <kcoyle> ... this would help us get these issues cleared out
20:52:07 <roba> what issue?
20:52:18 <kcoyle> ... this issue has meat so maybe needs discussion
20:52:28 <kcoyle> ... #22 at https://github.com/w3c/dx-prof/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+sort%3Acomments-desc
20:52:54 <kcoyle> ... anything that can get cleared without need for discussion should be done to tidy
20:53:21 <kcoyle> ... then the plenary has oversight and the list is tidied and it's easier to move forward
20:53:39 <kcoyle> roba: yes, we can do that
20:53:59 <kcoyle> ... list of open ones being considered are in document
20:54:08 <roba> issues relevant to the doc are listed. bring an agenda item to the proposed prof sub group to consider a particular issue if not listed in doc already
20:54:45 <kcoyle> topic: DCAT v3
20:55:35 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: versioning; RDA questionnaire
20:56:02 <kcoyle> AndreaPerego: had discussion about how to organize work around versioning and data services
20:56:27 <kcoyle> ... we got feedback on these;
20:56:59 <kcoyle> ... talked about how to reach out and what direction to take with RDA group but haven't been
20:57:16 <kcoyle> ... successful getting in touch with them; they are looking at the metadata aspect that can
20:57:39 <kcoyle> ... be used across scientific disciplines; it's very conceptual
20:58:02 <kcoyle> ... based on the approach that RDA took, the DCAT work wasn't very relevant
20:58:40 <kcoyle> ... didn't seem worth spending a lot of time on this, but haven't yet taken a decision
20:58:59 <kcoyle> ... please make any suggestions you have
20:59:24 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:59:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:59:52 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: versioning: is a rabbit hole, so you either do it superficially or you go deep and it doesn't cover many cases
21:00:02 <kcoyle> ... question of generalize or be specific
21:00:34 <kcoyle> ... inform people of best practice through primers and other documentation
21:01:01 <kcoyle> ... people have difference experience with versioning, which is a positive, lots of different experiences
21:01:56 <kcoyle> ... think about what might be helpful that you can offer from your experience
21:02:35 <kcoyle> rrsagent, make minutes v2
21:02:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-minutes.html kcoyle
21:03:46 <annette_g> I could really use a break
21:03:47 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: next meeting September 1; unless folks want one next week.
21:04:03 <kcoyle> https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-minutes.html
21:04:11 <kcoyle> rrsagent, make minutes v2
21:04:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-dxwg-minutes.html kcoyle
21:08:00 <ana__> ana__ has joined #dxwg
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