13:59:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pwe
13:59:09 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/06/30-pwe-irc
13:59:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:59:12 <Zakim> Meeting: Positive Work Environment CG
13:59:26 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2020Jun/0011.html
13:59:50 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #pwe
13:59:55 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/06/16-pwe-minutes.html previous: 16-June
14:00:39 <tzviya> present+
14:00:56 <jeff> jeff has joined #pwe
14:01:13 <Ralph> present+
14:01:24 <Ralph> present+ WendyReid, JoryBurson
14:01:35 <Ralph> present+ Judy
14:01:48 <jeff> present+
14:01:49 <Ralph> present+ Jeff
14:02:00 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pwe
14:02:04 <Ralph> scribe+
14:02:05 <jeff> scribe+ jeff
14:02:09 <wendyreid> present+
14:02:43 <Ralph> topic: Response to feedback and PRs
14:03:22 <Ralph> Tzviya: see -> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pulls pull requests
14:03:49 <Judy> Judy has joined #pwe
14:04:10 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2020AprJun/0171.html
14:04:18 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2020AprJun/0175.html
14:04:29 <Ralph> ... -> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/141   "#141" points to the -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-new-work/2020Jun/0017.html "Mozilla's comments"
14:04:38 <Ralph> Tzviya: we might conclude that these are editorial comments
14:04:53 <Ralph> ... in which case we could merge and move forward with a final document
14:05:04 <Ralph> ... there was some concern about whether these are "editorial"
14:05:43 <wendyreid> q+
14:05:47 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
14:05:48 <Ralph> Jeff: in the public comments there is reference to law enforcement being harmful
14:05:55 <Ralph> ... some may disagree with that
14:06:09 <jorydotcom> jorydotcom has joined #pwe
14:06:11 <Ralph> ... and might therefore consider the change non-editorial
14:06:23 <jorydotcom> + present
14:06:28 <Ralph> Wendy: depending on the nature of the emergency, different services are appropriate
14:06:29 <tzviya> q+
14:06:32 <Ralph> ... I think it
14:06:32 <Judy> q+
14:06:36 <tzviya> ack me
14:06:37 <Judy> present+
14:06:41 <jorydotcom> agree with Wendy
14:06:47 <Ralph> ... I think it's not a substantial change; it's just a better word
14:06:47 <jorydotcom> present+
14:07:11 <jeff> q+
14:07:17 <Ralph> Tzviya: the public comment doesn't say "harmful"
14:07:33 <Ralph> ... I think "emergency services" is actually more accurate and improves the text
14:07:39 <tzviya> ack Judy
14:08:03 <Ralph> Judy: we have several intersecting issues that I hope we could separate
14:09:00 <Ralph> ... I'm not concerned about the timing of the comment, after the review closed
14:09:09 <Ralph> ... I think "emergency services" is a better term
14:10:12 <Ralph> ... there's definitely context around which services are most appropriate for someone to go to, and those are well-documented
14:10:42 <tzviya> q+ to talk about making this more robust
14:10:44 <Ralph> ... if an ombuds becomes aware of something it's important for them to know what service might be best
14:10:50 <tzviya> ack je
14:11:02 <Ralph> Jeff: I have no problem with the term "emergency services"
14:12:15 <Ralph> ... Mozilla's statement does say "it behooves us as
14:12:15 <Ralph> W3C to acknowledge these ongoing harms"
14:12:26 <Judy> q+
14:12:28 <wendyreid> q+
14:12:34 <Judy> q- later
14:12:40 <Ralph> ... for that reason I believe it would be a substantive change to strike "law enforcement" apparently only in response to these remarks
14:13:06 <tzviya> ack Ralph
14:13:45 <jeff> scribe+
14:13:52 <Ralph> Ralph:
14:13:52 <Ralph> The link under the first instance of "law enforcement" in Section 4 is to a (Wikipedia) "list of emergency telephone numbers".  Therefore expanding the text in the link to "local law enforcement or other emergency service" can be argued as editorial.  Then the end of the following sentence could simply read "... for assistance contacting local services".
14:13:52 <Ralph> The reason for the second sentence is that some venues have their own security staff (e.g. MIT Campus Police) with associated considerations.
14:14:11 <jeff> Ralph: The context in which law enforcement appears twice
14:14:16 <jeff> ... is about immediate safety
14:14:35 <jeff> ... I don't want W3C to get close to Tantek's political question
14:14:58 <jeff> ... I do feel, however, that the first instance of law enforcement
14:15:09 <jeff> ... links to a wikipedia page
14:15:21 <jeff> ... so we could have a different tweak
14:15:27 <jeff> ... similar to Judy's points
14:15:42 <tzviya> vq
14:15:43 <jeff> ... to acknowledge there are other types of emergency services
14:16:03 <jeff> ... so we could find an addition to the language
14:16:16 <jeff> ... but I'm very concerned about a political statement in the thread
14:16:48 <Ralph> Tzviya: we have to respond to Mozilla's comment
14:16:51 <jeff> Tzviya: We had deferred other services (e.g. rape hotlines) to later
14:17:03 <Ralph> ... I think we can tweak the language to the scope
14:17:21 <Ralph> ... the Wikipedia entry that we link to has the broader title
14:17:32 <tzviya> q?
14:17:35 <tzviya> ack me
14:17:35 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about making this more robust
14:17:37 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
14:17:42 <Ralph> Wendy: +1 to Tzviya
14:18:02 <Ralph> ... we can accept the PR as it stands
14:18:11 <Ralph> ... it's neutral editorially
14:18:25 <Ralph> ... 9-1-1 decides which service to send
14:18:41 <Ralph> ... even though there is a political context in Mozilla's remark
14:18:52 <tzviya> ack Judy
14:18:53 <Ralph> ... "emergency services" is a more accurate statement
14:19:09 <Ralph> Judy: we're at a sensitive moment in time
14:19:19 <Ralph> ... some people are thinking differently than they had in the past
14:19:51 <Ralph> ... we're obligated to be practical and serve the community
14:20:25 <Ralph> ... even for people who might be at risk for who they contact in some contexts
14:20:50 <jeff> q+
14:20:57 <Ralph> ... we should be sensitive to the concern that Tantek raised if if we wish it were raised differently
14:21:44 <jeff> q-
14:21:59 <Judy> s/than they had/than they may have had to/
14:22:56 <Ralph> <ralph> "local law enforcement or other emergency service"
14:22:59 <tzviya> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/PWETF/141/b0398dc...tantek:57b7ddf.html
14:24:52 <Judy> q+
14:25:01 <tzviya> ack Judy
14:25:08 <jeff> Ralph: For the first sentence it should say law enforcement or other emergency services
14:25:18 <jeff> Tzviya: How about switching the order
14:25:22 <jeff> Ralph: OK with that
14:25:24 <tzviya> proposal: s/contact emergency services or local law enforcement
14:25:33 <jeff> Judy: Emergency services is the right umbrella term
14:25:37 <tzviya> s/local law enforcement/local services
14:26:10 <jeff> ... despite the problems with law enforcement; unless you document with law enforcement - the ability to follow-up with the rest of CEPC is limited
14:26:30 <jeff> ... having that hook in place may be important to retain
14:26:40 <jeff> ... the last thing is closest to most efficacious
14:26:56 <jeff> Wendy: I don't know an example where you have to call law enforcement separately
14:27:23 <jeff> ... in Canada, when you call 911, the first people that come are the fire department
14:27:28 <jeff> ... trained for first aid
14:27:37 <Judy> q+
14:27:40 <jeff> ... they can call for police officers if needed
14:27:57 <jeff> ... more accurate to call emergency services
14:28:07 <jeff> ... this laboring reinforces the political
14:28:14 <tzviya> ack ju
14:28:15 <Ralph> <ralph> propose "... contact local emergency services or law enforcement.  ... contact venue staff for assistance contacting local services."
14:28:34 <jeff> Judy: You may be assuming a more coherent system then much of the world
14:28:43 <jeff> ... in this country it depends on state or town
14:28:50 <jeff> ... other countries are less predictable
14:28:57 <jeff> ... maybe even within Canada
14:29:07 <jeff> ... that's why I like the Tzviya/Ralph language
14:29:15 <jeff> ... an umbrella and a hook
14:29:20 <jeff> ... avoids AC re-review
14:29:29 <jeff> Tzviya: Even in the US
14:29:39 <jeff> ... no 911 where I lived as a child
14:29:50 <jeff> Judy: I needed to go to a police station when mugged
14:30:03 <Ralph> <ralph> propose "... contact local emergency services or law enforcement.  ... contact venue staff for assistance contacting local services."
14:30:31 <tzviya> +1
14:30:37 <Judy> s/Judy: I needed to go to a police station when mugged//
14:34:02 <Ralph> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/tantek/PWETF/pull/141.html#Reporting new preview
14:37:14 <jeff> Tzviya: Do we like this?
14:37:20 <jeff> Judy: Better than what was there
14:37:24 <jeff> ... no AC re-review
14:37:33 <jeff> ... respectful way to address comment that was made
14:37:59 <Ralph> Jeff: I believe this could be viewed as editorial
14:38:29 <Ralph> ... separately work needs to be done on the Disposition of Comments
14:38:33 <jeff> s/could/should/
14:39:49 <Ralph> propose: "If you are concerned about your immediate safety, contact [local emergency services or law enforcement]. For a face to face event you may need to contact venue staff for assistance contacting local services. "
14:39:55 <tzviya> +1
14:39:59 <Ralph> <ralph> +1
14:39:59 <jeff> +1
14:40:14 <Judy> +1
14:40:26 <jorydotcom> +1
14:40:29 <Ralph> Tzviya: so resolved
14:41:09 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/143
14:41:12 <Ralph> .. this improves the CEPC; it is more all-encompassing
14:42:10 <jeff> q+
14:42:15 <Ralph> Judy: "given multiple considerations, we've added the phrase "emergency services"
14:42:57 <tzviya> ack jeff
14:44:45 <Ralph> Jeff: the assertion that "law enforcement is harmful" may be viewed differently in different parts of the world so we felt that removing "law enforcement" would be viewed as substantive
14:45:03 <jeff> q+ to ask a question about caste
14:45:07 <Ralph> ... however, Mozilla is welcome to [re]propose that for a future revision
14:45:17 <tzviya> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/PWETF/142/b0398dc...tantek:4a55f9a.html
14:45:30 <tzviya> ack jeff
14:45:30 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to ask a question about caste
14:45:30 <Ralph> -> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/142 #142 add caste to section 3.2 first list
14:45:37 <Judy> q+
14:45:40 <Ralph> Tzviya: if we add "caste" should we also add "class" ?
14:45:48 <Ralph> Jeff: I mostly view this as editorial
14:46:02 <Ralph> ... and note that "caste" does appear in Mozilla's Code of Conduct
14:46:16 <jorydotcom> q+ to ask if caste would need to be defined?
14:46:29 <Ralph> ... in my limited experience "caste" is most closely associated with India and certainly in India we would not discriminate on caste
14:46:48 <tzviya> ack ju
14:47:18 <Ralph> ... but how is that used now in India; is referring to caste acceptable? do we know how this would be received there?
14:48:15 <Ralph> Judy: my understanding from conversation with close friends is that using "caste" as it had been used historically is no longer accepted but the word itself is OK
14:48:34 <tzviya> ack jorydotcom
14:48:34 <Zakim> jorydotcom, you wanted to ask if caste would need to be defined?
14:48:41 <Ralph> ... I would support adding "caste" based on my conversations with Indian friends and colleagues
14:49:08 <Ralph> Jory: "caste" is a word that is not well-understood outside of India; does it need a definition?
14:49:43 <Ralph> Tzviya: I think the word is fairly widely understood
14:49:57 <jeff> q+ to not support adding class
14:50:14 <Ralph> Judy: my understanding is that "class" could be considered a parallel in many countries
14:51:30 <Ralph> Tzviya: it was my idea to add "class" after reading Tantek's suggestion to add "caste"
14:51:33 <tzviya> ack jeff
14:51:33 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to not support adding class
14:51:53 <Ralph> ... I think these would improve CEPC but do not think it's essential
14:52:12 <Ralph> Jeff: not having discrimination on caste is clearly law in India
14:52:36 <Ralph> ... I'm uncomfortable adding "class" now as editorial as it is somewhat ill-defined
14:53:08 <Ralph> ... I think it would be prudent to wait until we have a more careful definition of the word
14:53:11 <wendyreid> +1
14:53:13 <Ralph> propose: add "caste"
14:53:15 <jeff> +1
14:53:16 <Judy> +1
14:53:17 <Ralph> <ralph> +1
14:53:17 <tzviya> +1
14:53:19 <jorydotcom> +1
14:53:50 <Ralph> Tzviya: so resolved
14:53:53 <jeff> q+
14:53:56 <tzviya> ack jeff
14:54:17 <Ralph> Tzviya: what's next in finalizing this?
14:54:27 <Ralph> Jeff: get a Director's Decision
14:54:56 <Ralph> ... I'm certain the Director has delegated this decision to W3M
14:55:20 <Judy> s/is no longer accepted but the word itself is OK/is no longer accepted, but the practice of caste discrimination is still widespread, paralleling issues around racial discrimination in some countries/
14:57:20 <Judy> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/30-pwe-minutes.html Judy
14:57:59 <Ralph> topic: Next meeting
14:58:09 <jeff> q+
14:58:11 <Ralph> Tzviya: we are scheduled to meet again on 14 July
14:58:54 <tzviya> ack jeff
14:59:36 <Ralph> Jeff: on behalf of W3C, thanks to everyone who participated in this, starting with Tzviya
14:59:50 <Ralph> Tzviya: thank you all for your participation
15:00:41 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
15:00:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been tzviya, Ralph, WendyReid, JoryBurson, Judy, jeff, present, jorydotcom
15:00:43 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:00:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/30-pwe-minutes.html Zakim
15:00:46 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:00:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwe
15:01:04 <Ralph> chair: Tzviya
15:01:21 <Ralph> present+ Tzviya
15:01:43 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes v2
15:01:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/30-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
15:02:07 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
15:02:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items