12:04:15 RRSAgent has joined #redesign 12:04:15 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/06/11-redesign-irc 12:04:21 Zakim has joined #redesign 12:04:47 meeting: project review: Choosing a front-end framework 12:05:50 agenda+ Framework? Apollo not being a framework in the same way Bootstrap is 12:06:03 agenda+ Future support 12:06:08 agenda+ New changes in the future 12:06:14 agenda+ Licensing 12:45:24 Ralph has joined #redesign 12:56:42 xueyuan has joined #redesign 12:57:03 tink has joined #redesign 12:59:15 I have not yet hung up from Global 12:59:49 denis has joined #redesign 12:59:56 Jean-Gui has joined #redesign 13:00:58 present+ Coralie 13:01:03 present+ Léonie 13:01:04 vivien has joined #redesign 13:01:16 present+ Jean-Gui 13:01:37 present+ Sam 13:01:44 present+ 13:01:45 present+ 13:01:46 present+ Nicola_Saunders 13:02:01 ted has joined #redesign 13:02:05 weiler has joined #redesign 13:02:09 kaz has joined #redesign 13:02:13 present+ 13:02:16 wseltzer has joined #redesign 13:02:16 Zakim, who is on teh call? 13:02:16 I don't understand your question, vivien. 13:02:17 present+ Simon_Jones 13:02:20 Zakim, who is on the call? 13:02:20 Present: Coralie, Léonie, Jean-Gui, Sam, Ralph, vivien, Nicola_Saunders, weiler, Simon_Jones 13:02:45 ivan has joined #redesign 13:02:46 present+ Gerald 13:02:48 present+ 13:02:53 present+ 13:02:57 r12a has joined #redesign 13:03:07 Bert has joined #redesign 13:03:13 present+ 13:03:14 fantasai has joined #redesign 13:03:17 present+ 13:03:31 plh has joined #redesign 13:03:34 present+ 13:03:37 agenda? 13:03:46 jeff has joined #redesign 13:03:55 dom has joined #redesign 13:04:03 Regrets+ dom 13:04:30 caribou has joined #redesign 13:04:34 Present+ Ted 13:04:42 I have a zoom link, but it does not appear to work https://mit.zoom.us/u/axUJ9zxJO 13:04:52 agenda+ Testing 13:04:56 agenda+ Maintenance 13:05:02 agenda+ Doc and community 13:05:07 agenda+ Deadline 13:05:21 agenda? 13:05:28 to what degree are source code control, ACL management, and authentication support in scope? 13:06:11 Zakim, drop item 2 13:06:11 agendum 2, Future support, dropped 13:06:32 Zakim, agenda? 13:06:32 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 13:06:33 1. Framework? Apollo not being a framework in the same way Bootstrap is [from koalie] 13:06:33 3. New changes in the future [from koalie] 13:06:33 4. Licensing [from koalie] 13:06:33 5. Testing [from koalie] 13:06:33 6. Maintenance [from koalie] 13:06:33 7. Doc and community [from koalie] 13:06:33 present+ 13:06:34 8. Deadline [from koalie] 13:07:03 Zakim, agenda order is 1 3 5 7 6 8 4 13:07:03 ok, koalie 13:07:08 Zakim, agenda? 13:07:08 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 13:07:09 1. Framework? Apollo not being a framework in the same way Bootstrap is [from koalie] 13:07:09 3. New changes in the future [from koalie] 13:07:09 5. Testing [from koalie] 13:07:09 7. Doc and community [from koalie] 13:07:09 6. Maintenance [from koalie] 13:07:09 8. Deadline [from koalie] 13:07:10 4. Licensing [from koalie] 13:07:28 cccccceukvethegngccgdbrlkhruunvtgubiknccgder 13:07:42 s/cccccceukvethegngccgdbrlkhruunvtgubiknccgder// 13:07:47 tidoust has joined #redesign 13:09:19 [[ 13:09:20 Topic: Systeam feedback 13:09:20 The Systems Team discussed this topic yesterday. 13:09:20 You will find minutes here: 13:09:20 https://www.w3.org/2020/06/10-systeam-minutes#item01 13:09:20 The main points were: 13:09:20 Testing: Apollo v2 is really new and we would be the first ones to use it, meaning it has not received a lot of testing yet, which ultimately means there will be bugs as for any new project being release 13:09:21 Maintenance: What kind of maintenance can we expect after the final version of the website is released and more generally on the long term (to handle issues reported by our users or to use on other pages) 13:09:21 Documentation and community: seems to be a key aspect. Bootstrap has a huge community and documentation available, even if Apollo is on GitHub it does not seem to have any community, so we can't really call this an open source project. 13:09:22 Deadline: You mention it might take more time for you if you were to use Bootstrap, what would be the impact on the project timeline? 13:09:23 ]] 13:09:53 [Vivien summarizes the above] 13:10:31 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:10:51 rrsagent, pointer? 13:10:51 See https://www.w3.org/2020/06/11-redesign-irc#T13-10-51 13:11:18 Zakim, take up item 1 13:11:18 agendum 1. "Framework? Apollo not being a framework in the same way Bootstrap is" taken up [from koalie] 13:11:44 Simon: we might have confused things a bit by calling Apollo a framework 13:11:53 ... while it's our agency's approach to building websites 13:12:08 ... the team has been using that [since 2017] in the work we do 13:12:18 ... Nick is looking as v2 13:12:38 ... this approach lets us work on project more efficiently 13:12:55 ... We open sourced it as it's easy to do 13:13:05 q+ 13:13:27 Nicki: Apollo is really about giving us a means to quickly start working on a new project 13:13:31 ... consistent 13:13:34 My comments posted to https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-website-redesign/2020Jun/0004.html fwiw 13:13:42 ... uses vanilla html css 13:13:51 q? 13:13:59 ack jeff 13:14:31 Jeff: the confusion I have re: framework is that I'm not sure the breadth of the statement of what apollo does 13:14:42 ... we build web pages for our website 13:14:45 q+ 13:14:58 ... are the people going to use apollo? 13:15:16 Simon: It's for us to help build the CSS 13:15:26 ... once we're done, you'll have a bunch of html templates and css 13:15:40 ... so if people want to use the new design they will have to use the templates 13:15:48 ... we'll document that in a design system 13:16:05 ... apollo will end up being a small part of what we'll end up building for you 13:16:16 q+ 13:16:30 ack f 13:16:42 fantasai: I made a whole bunch of comment 13:16:47 ... that I won't repeat 13:17:01 ... It's important to know that Apollo is like a skeleton with a bunch of patterns 13:17:28 ... set of CSS rules and maybe some javascript 13:17:39 ... so you don't have to build that from scratch 13:18:49 ... if you write a website with html and css, it will not break down 13:19:05 -> https://www.w3.org/2020/06/11-redesign-irc#T13-10-51 fantasai's comments to public-website-redesign 13:19:06 ... maintenance, if you need to improve, is needed 13:19:10 ... to make it better 13:19:20 ... so not concerned about the maintenance question 13:19:53 Nicki: Thanks fantassai for the comments 13:20:05 s/ss/s 13:20:07 ... what we're trying to do with apollo isn't very far from html and css 13:20:07 s/needed/only needed/ 13:20:18 q? 13:20:20 q+ 13:20:24 ... allows us to add a minimal lay of customization 13:20:29 ack tink 13:20:50 Léonie: Nicki just confirmed that apollo is an accelerator 13:20:53 ... so it's a good thing 13:21:02 ... I agree maintenability is an important aspect 13:21:21 ... also, endorsement: 13:21:32 ... as soon as W3C chooses a framework there's an implicit endorsement 13:21:43 ... also, leading by example 13:21:44 q+ to say that "maintenance" and "making it better" is not that distinct. 13:21:57 ... apollo seems to stick to the good basic ideas of HTML and CSS 13:22:06 ... and W3C could take this stance 13:22:08 ... lastly, 13:22:12 ... accessibility is important 13:22:18 ... I looked at apollo 13:22:22 Bert, in some ways yes, but in some ways "fix things that are broken" is a large part of what's considered "maintenance", and HTML and CSS don't "break" going forward :) 13:22:27 ... pretty good, with a few things to look at 13:22:35 ... but far more accessible than Bootstrap 13:22:50 ... accessibillity can be gnarly 13:23:05 ... my recommendation is to use apollo. 13:23:07 ack next 13:23:10 s/to build that/to build common components like tabbed navigation, sidebar layouts, etc./ 13:23:25 Richard: I know next to nothing about these things 13:23:42 ... what I'd like to know is: are these frameworks tools to create the templates? 13:24:00 ... or will people like me who contribute pages need to know that framework? 13:24:11 Nicki: apollo is about building components and layouts 13:24:21 ... there needs to be another decision on what CMS to use 13:24:41 ... apollo is about front-end styling 13:24:42 [thank you for the clarification that CMS is in-scope and also not ripe] 13:25:03 ... there should not be much need to change the CSS 13:25:13 ... there will be guidelines on typography and colour 13:25:35 Richard: Would I, if I want to create a page in the future, will have to understand apollo to use the templates that are available? 13:25:53 Vivien: today anyone can start a page from scratch, literally 13:26:08 ... we're trying to move away from that 13:26:20 ... team will lose some freedom in their ability to create web pages 13:26:39 ... in the name of a more harmonious website, consistent, and with better branding 13:26:50 ... pages will be started from a common ground 13:26:58 ... via a CMS 13:27:16 ... your focus will be on the content, not the page itself 13:27:39 present+ Kaz 13:27:40 Richard: I hope that when we put the site together we take i18n into account as well as a11y 13:27:51 ... language labels, right to left, etc. 13:28:22 Nicki: We're very aware of the global nature of W3C 13:28:36 ... we're keen to add to apollo something for i18n 13:29:04 Simon: bidirectional text, for example 13:29:25 q? 13:29:38 Richard: It would be nice to have a bidi @@ 13:29:46 Simon: Right 13:29:51 s/@@/CSS file to swap in/ 13:30:06 Nicki: we want to support CSS logical properties 13:30:11 ... fallback will be needed 13:30:17 Richard: great to hear 13:30:23 q? 13:30:33 ack r 13:30:33 Ralph, you wanted to ask to what Simon was referring when he said "might document" 13:30:47 Ralph: Richard just proved my point in IRC: he does know a lot! 13:30:51 ... I had a question for Simon 13:31:20 ... in response to Jeff's question on components apollo provides 13:31:39 ... I heard you say that there are things you *might* document 13:31:52 ... which things might be important to our long-term use of the site? 13:32:06 Simon: sleep of the tongue 13:32:13 ... we intend to deliver a design system 13:32:17 ... to explain the templates 13:32:31 ... so that the team can build more web pages 13:32:31 Zakim:q+ 13:32:34 s/sleep/slip/ 13:32:38 q+ tink 13:33:03 ... it's going to be more than apollo 13:33:10 ... we're aiming to document as much as possible 13:33:17 ... sorry for using "might" 13:33:37 Ralph: if we want to create components on our own, will there be documentation for that? 13:33:43 ack me 13:33:44 Simon: that depends on the CMS question 13:33:52 ... not a hundred percent sure 13:34:10 ack next 13:34:10 s/It would be nice to have a bidi @@/It would be essential to have support for bidi content/ 13:34:31 Kaz: Many mechanisms for W3C pages 13:34:43 ... some manually edited, some generated, some mirrored from GH 13:35:03 ... we should think about which part should be handle which and how to combine 13:35:25 ... and how to integrate all of them is key 13:35:30 q? 13:35:57 Simon: the design system (documentation) is intended to be static html 13:36:12 ... we can integrate this in any system you use 13:36:54 ack next 13:36:55 Bert, you wanted to say that "maintenance" and "making it better" is not that distinct. 13:37:06 s/should be handle/should be handled by/ 13:37:10 Bert: back to a point fantasai made 13:37:25 ... maintenance indeed many not be needed 13:37:26 s/is key/is the key/ 13:37:28 s/many/may 13:37:41 ... but between maintenance and improvement there is a fine line 13:37:51 ... sometimes people need just a little bit more 13:38:02 ... [Bert gives an example] 13:38:27 ... in any case, we need to know a bit of the existing stylesheets in order to extend them for (improvement|maintenance) 13:38:36 s/example/example of adding ability to have three images in a row with captions, by adding a few lines of CSS/ 13:38:36 ... so it's not just writing one for 20 years 13:38:43 ack next 13:38:44 fantasai, you wanted to note that we have a lot of hand-coded pages and that's likely to continue 13:39:01 fantasai: we do have a lot of hand-coded pages on the site 13:39:05 ... they need to continue to work 13:39:08 [in Vivien's response to Richard's question I heard something else that would be nice to clarify internally. In our current environment any Team member is able to post a trivially bare HTML file on w3.org, and then it can be styled later. The threshold to First Publish is very low. If the CMS requires more knowledge before First Publish, that raises the threshold] 13:39:10 ... we'll continue to add pages 13:39:17 ... that's how we experiment and show off 13:39:24 ... whatever we're building will need to accommodate that 13:39:30 ... Bootstrap has a lot of classes 13:39:32 Nicki has joined #redesign 13:39:37 ... apollo has much fewer things 13:39:50 ... we'll need what we'll need 13:39:52 [ah! Fantasai's "hand coded pages" comment is a variant of my concern] 13:39:55 .. second what Léonie said 13:39:59 Zakim, next item 13:39:59 agendum 3. "New changes in the future" taken up [from koalie] 13:40:09 [Correct, Ralph, and it's not just the Team.] 13:40:26 s/add pages/add hand-coded pages/ 13:40:27 Nicki: Apollos is a starting point 13:40:32 ... we keep it under review 13:40:44 ... from a client support point of view too 13:40:59 s/we'll need what we'll need/will only include things that we need/ 13:41:03 ... we handle that on a case by case basis 13:41:37 ... in which case we may decide to roll back into apollo if it fills a gap that's been identified 13:41:41 q? 13:41:51 zakim, agenda? 13:41:51 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 13:41:52 3. New changes in the future [from koalie] 13:41:52 5. Testing [from koalie] 13:41:52 7. Doc and community [from koalie] 13:41:52 6. Maintenance [from koalie] 13:41:52 8. Deadline [from koalie] 13:41:52 4. Licensing [from koalie] 13:41:53 [/me would expect the team would continue to be able to create arbitrary html/css/etc files] 13:41:58 Zakim, next item 13:41:58 agendum 5. "Testing" taken up [from koalie] 13:41:59 q+ 13:42:07 ack we 13:42:45 Sam: how easy will features be ready to roll out, e.g. webauthn? 13:42:51 Simon: I read the question 13:42:59 ... I don't think it makes a different what framework we use 13:43:05 ... it's more of a programming thing 13:43:10 ... e.g. symfony or CMS 13:43:23 ... apollo or bootstrap would not prevent you from doing this 13:44:48 Coralie: that's Vivien's topic as Apollo v2 is really new and we would be the first ones to use it, meaning it has not received a lot of testing yet, which ultimately means there will be bugs as for any new project being release 13:44:57 Vivien: V2 is just going out 13:45:29 Vivien: concerned a bit that we're going to be a guinea pig for apollo v2 13:45:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/11-redesign-minutes.html Ralph 13:45:39 ... from systeam's point of view this is something we try to avoid 13:45:57 ... ability to handle bug reports? 13:45:59 simonrjones has joined #redesign 13:46:02 ... during and after the project 13:46:24 Simon: the current v2 that Nicki is working on is based on v1 available the last 4 years 13:46:37 ... like any project we'll be testing as we build 13:46:41 ... thoroughly 13:47:00 q+ 13:47:19 ack r12a 13:47:51 Richard: I get a little nervous when people say "we're going to do a11y testing and don't say i18n" 13:48:11 Simon: We'll have to look at that, it's a very good point 13:48:16 ack fantasai 13:48:16 fantasai, you wanted to contrast with hand-coded CSS 13:48:47 fantasai: on the i18n side, probably it's going to be easier 13:49:04 ... w3c's website currently uses conneg 13:49:11 ... the CMS will have to take this into account 13:49:21 ... apache's approach is sophisticated 13:49:31 ... from the css framework perspective I'm less concerned 13:49:38 ... while we're considering the testing question 13:49:46 ... if Studio 24 had offered to hand-code everything 13:49:56 ... that would be like a similar thing to consider 13:50:04 ... we would also be able to changes things 13:50:13 ... the code behind apollo is not particularly complicate 13:50:17 s/cate/cated/ 13:50:31 ... some of the leg work is done and that's what apollo brings 13:50:46 ... you could argue testing bootstrap @@ 13:50:53 ... apollo is closer to that 13:50:56 Simon: true 13:50:59 s/@@/@@ vs hand-coded website/ 13:51:04 q? 13:51:10 Zakim, next item 13:51:10 agendum 7. "Doc and community" taken up [from koalie] 13:51:22 s/conneg/content negotation/ 13:51:38 Vivien: Simon gave answers in that regard already 13:51:41 s/sophisticated/sophisticated, most CMSes can't do that/ 13:51:54 ... but comparing with Boopstrat, there's a huge community 13:51:58 ... you can find issues and fixes 13:52:00 Judy has joined #redesign 13:52:13 ... with apollo, we saw the doc but no existing client issues, for example 13:52:20 s/boopstrat/bootstrap/ 13:52:39 ... are you expecing your clients to use GH as a platform for issues / feedback? 13:52:57 Simon: it's not really a community project the same way bootstrap is 13:53:06 ... so far we've not had clients put issues to GH 13:53:08 q+ 13:53:12 s/is done/is done for common patterns/ 13:53:13 ... they use our support system 13:53:23 ... that could change in the future 13:53:26 q- 13:53:32 ... so far GH is our code repository 13:54:07 Vivien: One comment Denis made in the systeam call yesterday 13:54:31 ... w3c using apollo may increase the exposure on apollo 13:54:49 Simon: of couse we hope to increase exposure but not particularly on apollo 13:55:04 Wrt maintenance, I hope vivien and others have read https://superfriendlydesign.systems/articles/should-you-use-bootstrap-or-material-design-for-your-design-system/ 13:55:07 ... since we don't deploy it for others necessarily to use, but it's our tool 13:55:10 q? 13:55:12 which was linked from the Studio24 doc 13:55:16 Zakim, next item 13:55:16 agendum 6. "Maintenance" taken up [from koalie] 13:55:27 s/ couse / course / 13:55:36 [Maintenance: What kind of maintenance can we expect after the final version of the website is released and more generally on the long term (to handle issues reported by our users or to use on other pages)] 13:55:49 Simon: that depends on our contract with the client 13:55:58 ... we have support contracts with some clients 13:56:37 q? 13:56:54 ... if we add things to apollo that you want to use, we'll be happy to let you know and advise you 13:57:10 Zakim, next item 13:57:10 agendum 8. "Deadline" taken up [from koalie] 13:57:15 Zakim, agenda? 13:57:15 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 13:57:16 8. Deadline [from koalie] 13:57:16 4. Licensing [from koalie] 13:57:35 Zakim, take up item 4 13:57:35 agendum 4. "Licensing" taken up [from koalie] 13:58:07 Simon: any work we do is licensed to the clients 13:58:13 ... apollo is open source 13:58:21 s/licensed/transferred/ 13:58:26 ... built to be reused 13:59:05 [sounds good to me] 13:59:07 Zakim, next item 13:59:07 agendum 8. "Deadline" taken up [from koalie] 13:59:16 [feel free to ask me if you have license questions] 13:59:25 Vivien: if we were to use a framework different from apollo 13:59:37 ... S24 mentioned they'd need more time 13:59:42 ... and that might incur delays 13:59:49 ... what would be the impact from your pov? 13:59:54 [Richard departs] 14:00:17 Simon: apollo having pre-built things, there would be overhead 14:00:27 ... we would deprioritize other work 14:01:26 Coralie: our timeline says we need to make a decision mid-June 14:01:43 q+ 14:01:45 ... can we get back to you next week? 14:01:47 Simon: yes 14:01:50 q- 14:01:59 ack B 14:02:09 Bert: I see the apollo is written in sass 14:02:16 ... that would be a new tech for us to use 14:02:22 ... would we have to use sass 14:02:27 Simon: you don't have to 14:02:33 ... we'd discuss that 14:02:41 ... there are other ways 14:02:48 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sass_(stylesheet_language) 14:02:51 thanks for everyone's time and comments, a very useful call. 14:02:56 ... we'll take your lead 14:02:57 ack f 14:03:17 [[ 14:03:18 Sass is a preprocessor scripting language that is interpreted or compiled into Cascading Style Sheets (CSS). 14:03:18 ]] 14:03:24 fantasai: someone said that we want our stylesheets need to be readable and an example 14:03:27 ... I concur 14:03:35 ... using bootstrap would [mot do that] 14:03:43 ... we should turn off css anonymization 14:03:52 s/anonymization/minimization/ 14:03:53 ... view source 14:03:56 Simon: we agree 14:04:04 big +1 to making it trivially easy to 'view source' 14:04:26 present+ francois 14:04:29 rrsagent, please draft minutes v2 14:04:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/11-redesign-minutes.html koalie 14:04:40 [using something like bootstrap might send the wrong idea that simple css is not manageable] 14:04:55