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22:57:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
22:57:18 <Zakim> Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
22:57:27 <Rossen_> present+
22:58:28 <stantonm> stantonm has joined #css
22:58:44 <plinss> present+
22:59:29 <fantasai> present+
22:59:44 <dbaron> hmmm, I'm getting no audio on webex
22:59:46 <GameMaker> GameMaker has joined #css
23:00:07 <dbaron> but there's clearly UI showing sound from people
23:00:40 <stantonm> present+
23:01:01 <dbaron> Present+
23:01:25 <faceless2_> present+
23:01:31 <GameMaker> present+
23:01:38 <alisonmaher> alisonmaher has joined #css
23:02:21 <jensimmons> jensimmons has joined #css
23:02:27 <jensimmons> present+
23:02:52 <heycam> present+
23:03:03 <miriam> present+
23:03:11 <chris> chris has joined #css
23:03:26 <dino> dino has joined #css
23:03:46 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
23:03:59 <chris> present+
23:04:06 <heycam> ScribeNick: heycam
23:05:18 <chrishtr> present+
23:05:20 <heycam> Topic: publications of WDs recently
23:05:31 <heycam> Rossen: I want to draw attention to text about our WD process, how we go about publishing drafts
23:05:48 <heycam> ... as well as recognize the fact that these three specs were already published, don't have specific resolutions on publishing these WDs
23:05:51 <heycam> ... at least not all of them
23:06:00 <heycam> ... but we do have resolutions of all of the edits
23:06:12 <heycam> ... these are css-contain-2, css-overflow-3, and mediaqueries-5
23:06:16 <heycam> ... all republished as WDs
23:06:23 <heycam> ... most of the edits in those are editorial
23:06:28 <fantasai> https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/publish
23:06:29 <heycam> ... Alan and I looked over the publications and they looked good for us
23:06:36 <fantasai> "For WD if there are only non-controversial editorial changes and/or substantive changes whose exact wording was approved by the WG, there is no requirement to get an explicit WG resolution. The decision URL is this wiki page, and you can publish using Echidna."
23:06:40 <heycam> ... I wanted to bring this up for the awareness of the WG
23:06:54 <heycam> ... in the past we have made a lot of effort to lighten up the process of WD publication
23:06:56 <dino> present+
23:06:56 <drousso> i am so sorry
23:07:01 <heycam> ... and make it easier for editors to push WD updates
23:07:01 <drousso> i thought i was muted
23:07:03 <drousso> present+
23:07:13 <heycam> ... there is a part of our current documentation that seems a bit overconstrained
23:07:22 <leaverou> present+
23:08:06 <heycam> ... and that is the part which reads "substantive changes whose exact wording was approved by the WG"
23:08:10 <heycam> ... this is a little too strong
23:08:17 <heycam> ... we have to go and rubber stamp all of the edits
23:08:26 <heycam> ... I don't know that we need "exact wording" in this sentence
23:08:38 <heycam> ... and I propose we drop that and leave it as substantive changes are approved by the WG
23:08:57 <heycam> fantasai: I'm OK with this a long as the wording is approved by one other person than the person who made the edits
23:09:01 <heycam> ... think it's important to get review
23:09:26 <heycam> ... so another WG member, or the person raising the issue
23:09:39 <heycam> Rossen: that seems to be part of the PR review.  is that enough?
23:09:48 <heycam> astearns: we don't do PRs
23:09:59 <heycam> ... I think it would be great if we did
23:10:06 <heycam> fantasai: we sometimes do PRs, if it's likely to need changes
23:10:12 <heycam> ... but usually we push changes and ask for review
23:10:27 <heycam> astearns: I think we should change the wiki wording to remove "exact wording", and make it part of the editor's task to get appropriate review
23:10:48 <heycam> chris: I agree with what Alan said, and just edited the wiki to remove "exact wording"
23:11:00 <heycam> fantasai: I would like the exact wording to be reviewed by someone other than the person who made the edit
23:11:11 <heycam> chris: does that mean going to PRs and reviews for every change?
23:11:12 <heycam> fantasai: no
23:11:25 <heycam> ... if you're going to publish to /TR, someone should have looked at the changes
23:11:42 <heycam> ... without a regular PR process used everywhere else, leaving it up to the editor to get appropriate review
23:11:49 <heycam> ... going over exact wording in a meeting like this isn't useful
23:11:51 <heycam> fantasai: not suggesting that
23:11:57 <heycam> ... just that someone else reviews it
23:12:05 <heycam> astearns: "appropriate review"
23:12:13 <heycam> fantasai: ok
23:12:49 <heycam> Topic: <dialog> positioning should be describable in CSS
23:12:54 <heycam> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4645
23:13:14 <heycam> Rossen: is Simon, Tab or Elika able to handle this one?
23:13:20 <heycam> or emilio if he's on the call
23:13:25 <heycam> s/or/... or/
23:13:56 <heycam> Rossen: not hearing anything, if nobody can take this issue, we'll push it off to next week
23:14:12 <heycam> Topic: color-contrast needs another comma
23:14:16 <heycam> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5087
23:14:18 <TabAtkins> yeah let's move on for the moment
23:14:33 <heycam> leaverou: I can take this
23:14:44 <heycam> ... right now we have the color-contrast function accepting a bg color and a list of fg colors
23:14:52 <heycam> ... supposed to choose the most contrasting color
23:14:59 <heycam> ... the first is space separated, the rest are commad separated
23:15:04 <heycam> ... makes it looks like the two are grouped together
23:15:18 <heycam> ... so this is a syntax issue, how do we make sure the first color stands out, and the comma separated ones are grouped togetehr
23:15:26 <heycam> ... one proposal is to use a comma, like in gradients
23:15:32 <heycam> ... another is to use a keyword like "versus" or "on" or "over"
23:15:50 <dino> document.getElementById("lea").playbackRate *= 0.5;
23:15:57 <heycam> ... another is to use a slash. a problem with that is inconsistent with other CSS, without parens or something, the slash has a different precedence compared to backgrounds
23:16:20 <heycam> chris: one other thing is that the first element is typically a background, but doesn't have to be
23:16:30 <heycam> leaverou: right if you reverse the colors you still get the same result
23:16:50 <heycam> florian: in terms of keywords, "against" might work to avoid indicating which is fg or bg
23:16:57 <heycam> chris: I also liked "vs"
23:17:02 <heycam> ... that would be my first choice
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23:17:17 <heycam> AmeliaBR: for keywords, another could be "from"
23:17:21 <TabAtkins> I'm fine with "vs" or a plain comma.
23:17:26 <heycam> ... choosing a contrasting color from the list after
23:17:38 <bkardell_> present+
23:17:41 <jensimmons> q?
23:17:42 <florian> "vs" works for me
23:17:44 <heycam> ... syntax wise I prefer slash, but the concern about all the new color functions consistently using slash to separate the alpha value might be an issue
23:17:52 <heycam> leaverou: that's not a problem, grid-row/column uses slash like this
23:18:04 <heycam> ... but if you have slahes and commas at the same level
23:18:05 <jensimmons> q+
23:18:15 <heycam> ... if you have color / color+, it looks like the first two colors are grouped
23:18:27 <heycam> AmeliaBR: I don't think that's an issue or really consistent
23:18:29 <AmeliaBR> `color-contrast(wheat / tan, sienna)`
23:18:30 <heycam> leaverou: is there precedent for the opposite?
23:18:49 <heycam> TabAtkins: it is true that all the places we mix slash and comma, that slash is subordinate to the comma
23:18:58 <heycam> ... don't think that's necessarily a problem, but I'm fine with using a keyword here
23:19:10 <jensimmons> q?
23:19:12 <heycam> ... if we explicitly want to keep slash as a weaker precedence
23:19:20 <heycam> leaverou: also there's an option of using a function
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23:19:28 <heycam> jensimmons: I hear people saying they like "vs", but I really don't
23:19:33 <Rossen_> ack jensimmons
23:19:34 <heycam> ... it doesn't feel expected from the PoV of authors
23:19:47 <heycam> ... I appreciate the consistency argument. is there another symbol we can use?
23:20:01 <heycam> leaverou: what about a function, that definitely makes the grouping obvious
23:20:02 <dino> (not so firm) vote for not using the / to avoid this inconsistent grouping/alternate issue, but i like / more than vs
23:20:06 <heycam> AmeliaBR: most cases that means having triple nested parens
23:20:20 <heycam> Rossen_: what about the "from" keyword?
23:20:27 <heycam> ... sounds fairly intuitive
23:20:36 <heycam> florian: if we're going with a keyword, I like vs better
23:20:47 <heycam> leaverou: I like against and vs better than from
23:20:47 <fantasai> +1 to leaverou
23:21:17 <heycam> argyle: [...]
23:21:22 <chris> vs for me too
23:21:25 <AmeliaBR> `color-contrast(var(--fg) from #002, #ffa)` `color-contrast(var(--fg) vs #002, #ffa)`
23:21:43 <heycam> myles: sounds like there's not argreement on keywords
23:21:46 <heycam> jensimmons: I really don't like it
23:21:50 <heycam> fantasai: there's keywords in gradients
23:21:52 <myles> myles has joined #css
23:21:55 <heycam> leaverou: I think the ship has sailed
23:21:57 <myles> present+ myles
23:22:05 <dino> LET'S USE EMOJI!
23:22:07 <heycam> argyle: I like keywords but vs doesn't feel right
23:22:18 <heycam> leaverou: to me keywords read like natural language which I think is something to strive for
23:22:22 <fantasai> s/vs doesn't feel right/against feels very English/
23:22:27 <heycam> ... keywords the precedence is still not completely clear
23:22:29 <astearns> prefers keywords to most magic-punctuation syntax
23:22:32 <heycam> myles: I'm not sure that's something to strive for
23:22:37 <fantasai> s/against/against I like against, but it/
23:22:42 <heycam> ... I don't think it'd be a good idea for properties to be full english sentences
23:22:50 <heycam> Rossen_: we also have a resolution to allow commas everywhere!
23:22:53 <AmeliaBR> q?
23:22:57 <heycam> myles: I don't think we do, I posted about that last week
23:23:07 <heycam> AmeliaBR: I think also, while discussing this, important to remember how this function works
23:23:12 <heycam> ... which I wasn't thinking of when I suggested keywords
23:23:26 <heycam> ... but you're picking a value from the list, contrasting it against the first value
23:23:28 <jensimmons> |
23:23:30 <heycam> ... it's the list you're picking from
23:23:48 <heycam> argyle: it sounds nice when you put it that way
23:23:57 <faceless2_> I think a keyword over /, I can't get past the precedence issue. commas just seem naturally lower priority than slash
23:24:04 <heycam> Rossen_: are we more leaning towards using "against"?
23:24:13 <heycam> ... if we used versus would it be abbreviated?
23:24:16 <heycam> florian: I hope so
23:24:23 <heycam> Rossen_: we don't use abbreviations anywhere else?
23:24:28 <heycam> plinss: only every unit type
23:24:40 <heycam> TabAtkins: "vs" is pretty universal
23:24:47 <heycam> dbaron: except in the legal system in the US, where it's "v"!
23:24:51 <TabAtkins> video game *and* movies
23:25:09 <chris> vs
23:25:10 <argyle> vs
23:25:16 <heycam> chris: let's go with vs
23:25:19 <heycam> leaverou: I'm fine with vs
23:25:29 <heycam> Rossen_: any objections to adding vs to the color-contrast function?
23:25:41 <AmeliaBR> ``color-contrast(var(--fg) vs #002, #ffa)`
23:25:43 <Rossen_> color-contrast(wheat vs tan, sienna, var(--myAccent), #d2691e)
23:25:43 <leaverou> color-contrast(wheat vs tan, sienna, var(--myAccent), #d2691e)
23:25:44 <heycam> dino: can someone type an example?
23:25:45 <TabAtkins> color-contrast(wheat vs tan, #00ff00, var(--foo))
23:26:20 <chris> yay!
23:26:28 <heycam> RESOLVED: Use vs in color-constrast function
23:26:32 <argyle> very nice
23:26:43 <heycam> Topic: Why special-casing background-image for inputs?
23:26:47 <heycam> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4917
23:27:04 <heycam> Rossen_: this issue is calling out some special casing that was added for bg images on input elements
23:27:08 <heycam> ... for the purposes of forced colors
23:27:20 <heycam> ... and this was a legacy behavior that was carried forward over the years and not really necessary any more
23:27:29 <heycam> ... since we have the backplate, which is used to guarantee contrast where needed
23:27:42 <heycam> ... just commented earlier on the issue earlier, I'm completely fine with removing it from the spec and closing the issue
23:27:50 <heycam> ... unless anyone has any reason why we shouldn't
23:28:03 <heycam> ... any objections to removing the special casing and closing the issue?
23:28:15 <heycam> RESOLVED: Remove the special case of background images on input elements wrt forced colors
23:28:39 <TabAtkins> i'm fine with moving to inline issues
23:28:49 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/3199#issuecomment-634368358
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23:29:04 <heycam> Topic: Draft line-box-contain proposal
23:29:08 <heycam> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/3199
23:29:20 <heycam> fantasai: this is the main one we've discussed a bunch about drafting alternate models for line layout
23:29:27 <heycam> ... some of the ideas are captured in the draft
23:29:35 <heycam> ... do we want to publish with them in the draft?
23:29:51 <heycam> ... it's not in any way final, question is just whether we want a placeholder in there to solicit discussion on the ideas
23:30:13 <heycam> florian: agree it's not final, but it's worth leaving in to get extra review
23:30:21 <heycam> dbaron: I think it's mostly reasonable, though there's a sentence in there I don't understand
23:30:34 <heycam> ... "half-leading is inserted inside the content box edges rather than overlapping the pbm areas"
23:30:40 <heycam> fantasai: I can remove that sentence
23:30:55 <heycam> ... if you wanted a line height that's less than 1, somehow we have to reduce the size of the box that we're considering for the height of the line
23:30:59 <heycam> ... otherwise it would increase the height of the line box
23:31:08 <heycam> ... there's needs to be a reduction at least on the margin
23:31:12 <heycam> ... somewhere we need to reduce the size
23:31:28 <heycam> dbaron: I guess there's 2 questions. one is what you said makes it sound like you want line height to change where the pbm go
23:31:36 <heycam> ... when half leading would be negative
23:31:38 <heycam> fantasai: yes
23:31:40 <heycam> ... that's one option
23:31:47 <dholbert> dholbert has joined #css
23:31:54 <heycam> ... but we could also not do that. it's not critical, I can remove it from the draft for now, but we should discuss at some point
23:31:59 <heycam> ... other option is to reduce the margin box
23:32:21 <heycam> dbaron: I think it might be good to move into an issue
23:32:32 <heycam> ... might be good to remove that part, but otherwise I'm fine with publishing with this in
23:32:42 <heycam> Rossen_: any other reasons to hold back publishing?
23:32:51 <fantasai> baseline-source: auto | first | last
23:32:52 <heycam> fantasai: we also added a baseline-source property for #861
23:32:56 <heycam> ... the syntax wasn't resolved yet
23:33:13 <heycam> ... we also added a leading-trim proposal, which again is not anywhere near final, but it's tracking the discussion we've had in the past
23:33:30 <heycam> ... then I pulled in a bunch of CSS 2.1 with florian's help, so we have some line height calculations defined in this draft.  no changes, just imported text
23:33:50 <heycam> florian: just to clarify, the 2.1 changes we're talking abotu (actually 2.2) we resolved
23:33:58 <heycam> ... they've been reverted to clean up CSS 2
23:34:10 <heycam> ... the wording we had resolved on and applied to CSS 2 is not present anywhere if we don't publish it here
23:34:18 <heycam> ... so I'm strongly in favor of publishing it
23:34:30 <fantasai> Summary of the changes we didn't quite resolve on at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2020AprJun/0137.html
23:34:54 <dholbert> present+
23:35:04 <heycam> Rossen_: any objections, to this and publishing inline?
23:35:08 <heycam> fantasai: issue needs to remain open
23:35:25 <heycam> ... the issue on adding a new model for line height calculations.  the issue isn't closed yet, despite publishing
23:35:30 <florian> s/reverted to clean up CSS 2/reverted along with every other edit to CSS 2 as part of a temporary clean up/
23:35:36 <fantasai> all changes at https://drafts.csswg.org/css-inline-3/#changes
23:35:47 <dbaron> In 3.5 "Leading Control" I'd change "the ascend and descent font metrics" to change "ascend" to "ascent"
23:35:51 <heycam> RESOLVED: Publish css-inline
23:36:14 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/862
23:36:30 <heycam> Topic: should `initial-letter` be plural?
23:36:33 <heycam> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/862
23:36:43 <heycam> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/862
23:37:25 <heycam> jensimmons: originally this property was defined as initial-letter, then debated that it should be plural, since it can apply to more than the first "letter"
23:37:29 <heycam> ... could apply to a group of letters, include punctuation
23:37:36 <heycam> ... we went down a road of whether this is the right name
23:37:41 <heycam> ... don't seem to come up with a better name
23:37:51 <heycam> ... but we did resolve to switch to initial-letters a while ago, I think July 2018
23:38:02 <heycam> ... then we've lived with that, writing spec and syntax using the plural version
23:38:14 <heycam> ... we're discussing today whether to go back to the singular
23:38:26 <heycam> ... for me, I wrote here in a comment that it's confusing
23:38:34 <heycam> ... first-letters will trip up authors
23:38:54 <heycam> ... I've not come up with a better name for initial-letter.  as I've lived with it being plural, I've hated it. would like to revert it
23:39:09 <heycam> florian: ideally we'd have a verb of some kind, but can't come up with the right one
23:39:14 <heycam> ... the pluralization doesn't really help with anything
23:39:21 <heycam> ... I agree it would trip up people
23:39:29 <heycam> Rossen_: there's a linked issue with some better naming option discussion
23:39:38 <heycam> ... opening with "should it be drop-cap, initial-cap, ..."
23:39:49 <heycam> florian: that discussion didn't make any progress
23:39:57 <heycam> ... I agree we should revert to initial-letter
23:40:00 <fantasai> s/florian/fantasai/
23:40:08 <faceless2_> +1 to reverting this.
23:40:15 <heycam> Rossen_: not hearing other opposing opinions
23:40:30 <heycam> AmeliaBR: what's the state of implementations?
23:40:37 <heycam> myles: we support it without the s
23:40:56 <heycam> faceless2_: we have an s but we can drop it
23:41:20 <heycam> RESOLVED: Rename initial-letters to initial-letter
23:42:45 <heycam> Topic: Sizing atomic inlines as initial letters
23:42:50 <heycam> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/3231
23:43:04 <heycam> fantasai: an atomic inline is something like an image or an inline-block
23:43:26 <heycam> ... wasn't a lot of clarity on it, committed a bunch of changes saying the size as they do in normal circumstances unless it's an auto size, when we use the initial letter sizing algorithm
23:43:32 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/commit/7f135bedb7e7732e2ca042efd906a1e51d171cf9
23:43:36 <heycam> ... auto sizing is special, but everything else is normally as for atomic inlines
23:43:39 <heycam> ... wanted to run this past the WG
23:43:51 <heycam> florian: it's a change from being vague? or some other definition?
23:43:53 <heycam> fantasai: from being vague
23:44:10 <heycam> faceless2_: we're trying to do this right now.  seems to be a good idea, looks like it will work
23:44:35 <heycam> Rossen_: any other opinions or objections?
23:44:49 <liam_> liam_ has joined #css
23:45:26 <heycam> RESOLVED: Atomic inline initial letter size as regular atomic inlines, except for auto sizes being calculated using the initial letter algorithm
23:45:37 <heycam> Topic: shape-margin on initial-letters-wrap: first
23:45:42 <heycam> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5117
23:46:05 <heycam> fantasai: we resolved to allow shape-margin that wraps around the glyph, and wrapps all the lines around the shape
23:46:16 <heycam> ... the other values of initial-letter. one is first, which pulls the first line in and wraps it
23:46:34 <heycam> ... the suggestion was if we apply a shape margin to all lines when wrapping to the glyph shape, shouldn't you also allow it when wrapping the first line to it
23:46:35 <jensimmons> +1 from me to this
23:46:47 <heycam> ... proposal is to make shape-margin apply whenever you are wrapping to the glyph shape
23:46:54 <heycam> Rossen_: currently it's defined only to apply to floats
23:47:02 <heycam> fantasai: we should probably update to say it also applies to initial letter boxes
23:47:06 <astearns> +1 from me
23:47:11 <heycam> ... then define exactly how that works in initial-letter-wrap
23:47:22 <heycam> dbaron: presumably you want the same wording that you have for 'all'?
23:47:33 <heycam> ... [reads some spec text]
23:47:46 <heycam> fantasai: makes sense to me. apply shape-outside and shape-margin, and use that as a replacement of the glyph shape
23:47:52 <heycam> faceless2_: I agree that makes sense
23:47:54 <florian> +1
23:48:19 <dbaron> What I read was "If the value of shape-outside is not none, shape-outside is used instead of the glyph outline. In both cases, shape-margin is applied to expand the outline."
23:48:36 <dbaron> ... from https://drafts.csswg.org/css-inline-3/#valdef-initial-letters-wrap-all
23:48:43 <heycam> RESOLVED: shape-margin and shape-outside apply to initial letter wrapped inline boxes, modifying or replacing the shape of the glyph
23:49:20 <heycam> Topic: Define Media Groups: continuous vs paged, etc.
23:49:25 <heycam> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5019
23:49:41 <heycam> florian: a while back we discussed that media groups weren't define anywhere but CSS 2, and defined vaguely
23:49:53 <heycam> ... concluded they're not actually used anywhere, except a few props saying they apply to all media groups
23:50:11 <heycam> ... fantasai found one other place where we use this, which is wrt fixed positioning, where we have a different behavior between paged and continuous behavior
23:50:28 <heycam> ... I think it does make sense to have a normative definition of this, MQs is probably a place for this.
23:50:43 <heycam> ... I propose we inline the definition where block-
23:50:49 <heycam> overflow is
23:51:30 <heycam> ... I would be inclined to say that for things that are fully scrolling without pages are continuous, and everything else as paged
23:52:05 <heycam> dbaron: I'd be inclined to say that the advertisement in the airport case [which minuter missed] is not paged
23:52:10 <heycam> florian: I agree it's a bit weird
23:52:30 <heycam> ... in practice it doens't matter much.  it's just going to be used for fixed pos, in a scrolling media it's going to be fixed, and in paged it will be replicated on pages
23:52:40 <heycam> ... so with neither paging not scrolling, it doesn't really matter
23:52:50 <heycam> stantonm: our default mode is paginated, but there's an option to switch to scrolling.  so I think this makes sense
23:53:03 <heycam> Rossen_: hearing mostly support
23:53:34 <heycam> dbaron: the thing I'm thinking about is that in the future, things that have neither pagination nor scrolling seem more similar to continuous than paginated
23:53:41 <heycam> ... if we're going to add any future distinctions on this
23:53:54 <heycam> florian: my intuition goes the other way.  but I don't think it makes a normative difference right now
23:54:01 <heycam> dbaron: don't feel strongly
23:54:09 <heycam> fantasai: defaulting to continuous sounds better
23:54:21 <heycam> ... the one that makes me concerned is things that are both continuous and paged
23:54:35 <heycam> florian: if you have pages, and fixed pos, I would expect the thing to be on each pages
23:54:39 <dbaron> s/sounds better/sounds better since people are mostly designing for continuous/
23:54:47 <heycam> ... the fact that some pages might be longer and have scrollbars doesn't invalidate that
23:55:03 <heycam> Rossen_: you'll add both continuous and paged media definitions to overflow?
23:55:16 <heycam> florian: this is just terminology.  I will tie this into the definition over overflow-block
23:55:19 <heycam> Rossen_: in MQ4?
23:55:30 <heycam> fantasai: given we're importing up from CSS 2 ...
23:55:35 <heycam> florian: we're importing words that didn't have a precise definition
23:55:40 <heycam> fantasai: MQ4 makes sense
23:55:53 <heycam> Rossen_: this will restart CR?
23:56:01 <heycam> florian: we need to do a republication soon folding in a few issues
23:56:07 <heycam> ... not going for republication just yet, but will in a few weeks
23:56:44 <heycam> RESOLVED: Add definitions for paged and continuous media to MQ4
23:57:02 <heycam> Topic: css media query width and window.innerWidth may not be equal
23:57:06 <heycam> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4713
23:57:19 <heycam> florian: MQs lets you test the width (and height)
23:57:28 <heycam> ... of a page, and the MQ works in terms of floating point numbers
23:57:37 <heycam> ... there is also window.innerWidth, which relates to the same dimension, but it's an integer
23:57:41 <heycam> ... the fact that they're different is weird
23:57:54 <heycam> ... if you test the MQ against a value against the window.innerWidth you may get surprising results
23:58:04 <heycam> ... a strict equality MQ could fail
23:58:18 <heycam> ... in practice min-/max- is better.  but this is odd, not sure what to do about that
23:58:37 <heycam> Rossen_: this is when you use window.matchMedia() with a value from window.innerWidth?
23:58:56 <Rossen_> "window.matchMedia('(width > window.InnerWidth)') << this is a problem
23:59:10 <heycam> dbaron: I think one thing that could be done is to propose an API that is better than window.innerWidth, and returns the float values
23:59:28 <heycam> Rossen_: I guess the questions that is MQ-scoped, is there anything we should be looking at doing for the MQ width or not?
23:59:29 <dbaron> (I think that's a thing that could be done by anyone who thinks this is an issue for them!)
23:59:48 <heycam> florian: I would like to not change it.  but given I don't know how/whether to solve it...
23:59:53 <heycam> ... so would rather go in dbaron's direction
23:59:58 <heycam> ... rather than change MQs to work on integers
00:00:04 <heycam> Rossen_: the usage of @media width is very high
00:00:13 <heycam> ... making a change would be very disruptive, don't think we have that option
00:01:03 <heycam> Rossen_: any objections to not change @media width/height?
00:01:10 <heycam> RESOLVED: No change to @media width/height
00:01:49 <Rossen_> Zakim, end meeting
00:01:49 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Rossen_, plinss, fantasai, stantonm, dbaron, faceless2_, GameMaker, jensimmons, heycam, miriam, chris, chrishtr, dino, drousso, leaverou,
00:01:50 <heycam> github-bot: end topic
00:01:53 <Zakim> ... AmeliaBR, bkardell_, myles, dholbert
00:01:53 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:01:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/03-css-minutes.html Zakim
00:01:55 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Rossen_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
00:02:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #css
00:02:03 <dbaron> FWIW, I'm going to stay on the WebEx to see if I can find a regresion range
00:06:02 <dbaron> (I didn't get any audio when I joined with Firefox nightly; I think something broke recently.)
00:06:39 <chris> dbaron I am on a two-day-old nightly and it worked ok for me. If that helps.
00:07:03 <dbaron> the bisection is showing something very recent so far
00:07:15 <dbaron> (currently down to May 31 - June 3)
00:18:06 <florian> TabAtkins, would you have any idea about https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/1540
00:19:31 <florian> also https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/1033
00:20:47 <dbaron> gsnedders, I suspect your issue with tables and baselines may be related to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=569645
00:22:07 <dbaron> gsnedders, and its interaction with https://drafts.csswg.org/css-align-3/#synthesize-baseline and the note at the end of https://drafts.csswg.org/css-align-3/#baseline-values
00:27:42 <dbaron> anyway, filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1643204 on WebEx being broken in Firefox nightly
00:28:43 <dbaron> It was apparently regressed by a change to when we fire `load` events, and is so far the only known functionality regression from that change.
00:31:02 <fantasai> faceless2_: Looks like edits weren't actually necessary for https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5117 but lmk if anything seems amisss
00:31:06 <fantasai> s/sss/ss/
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01:03:45 <gsnedders> dbaron: hmm, all the TCs for that seem to match in Firefox and Chrome, given they don't actually test the (completely empty) case
01:05:02 <gsnedders> dbaron: oh, actually: is the four table in http://wpt.live/css/css-align/baseline-rules/synthesized-baseline-table-cell-001.html correct (v. the ref)?
01:05:20 <gsnedders> dbaron: if I'm understanding correctly, that's wrong because of that Gecko bug
01:14:05 <gsnedders> here I was trying to fix some old TCs and now I've gone down a table-related wormhole
01:15:02 <fantasai> gsnedders: you're not new, you know that's how this goes :)
01:15:18 <gsnedders> fantasai: I WAS JUST TRYING TO MAKE A SMALL EDIT AT THE END OF LAST MONTH BEFORE INVOICING ;_;
01:16:29 <gsnedders> also: it's really annoying when Presto is the only thing to pass the TC and Dragonfly no longer works
01:16:34 <fantasai> :(
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02:04:34 <florian> I stopped being able to use presto on my main laptop less than a month ago (updated to a version of MacOS that no longer supports 32bit apps, in order to get non-buggy gpu drivers)
02:05:05 <florian> How are we going to get specs to REC if half the tests can't pass on presto now :D
02:05:23 <gsnedders> florian: oh, don't worry, Presto doesn't do the same as anything else here :P
02:05:47 <gsnedders> like the intersection of Gecko and Blink behaviour is _totally different_ to Presto
02:06:45 <florian> Right. That's why testing presto is interesting
02:07:14 <florian> If it gave the same results as everybody else, or always be obviously bad, that'd be uninteresting.
02:07:25 <florian> But it's often doing different non-terrible things
02:08:21 <gsnedders> in a case like this where it's "aligned to the top content edge" v. "aligned to the bottom content edge" I'm not sure it makes so much difference which we spec
02:28:30 <gsnedders> fantasai, dbaron: if you have a table-row with no decendants, it is always a zero-sized box, right?
02:49:09 <gsnedders> or no, it gets its height computed normally, but it's zero-width?
02:49:20 <gsnedders> CSS tables are confusing, y'all
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04:27:44 <dbaron> gsnedders: I agree that Firefox gets the 4th and 6th tables in that testcase wrong and the reference should probably be adjusted to match Chromium... at least if we fix the fact that `background-clip: content-box` is interoperably implemented incorrectly (i.e., the way everyone naturally expects) and we should fix the spec.
04:28:11 <dbaron> In particular, `height` on table cells is specified to *not* increase the size of the cell box, but to increase the size of the row.
04:28:21 <dbaron> and the extra space is padding
04:29:17 <dbaron> we probably need to specify that the content box of table cells is different things for purposes of layout and painting
04:29:38 <dbaron> unless something I'm missing already does that.  fantasai?
04:35:25 <dbaron> anyway, I explained that in a tad more detail in https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/issues/23905#issuecomment-638596838
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16:41:07 <dbaron> github-bot, reboot
16:41:07 <github-bot> dbaron, Sorry, I can't reboot right now because I have buffered topics in #tt.
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18:27:48 <tantek> wow did github-bot literally do an "I'm sorry Dave"?!?
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21:38:12 <gregwhitworth> can the github bot be invited to any channel?
21:40:00 <gregwhitworth> I guess not, I invited that friendly bot and they did not want to join :/  Is it hard coded for CSSWG issues?
21:52:56 <fantasai> iank_: 5063 was already cross-linked to 4638, fwiw :)
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03:07:23 <astearns> gregwhitworth: https://github.com/dbaron/wgmeeting-github-ircbot#do-you-want-this-bot-for-your-working-group
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16:42:15 <innov4ti> Is there any precedent for listing selector lists in CSS syntax? Let's say you have a selector like `a` and a selector like `b, c`, you couldn't separate them with a comma like `a, b, c` because that's a single different selector list, so some other delimiter would need to be used
16:49:24 <innov4ti> You can see what I'm brainstorming here, the last detail is the syntax for what I'm calling <list-of-selector-lists> in this file (at the bottom) https://gist.github.com/tomhodgins/f12f00e7cdca7f6ddcbc6c983f17245b
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17:27:42 <TabAtkins> innov4ti: There isn't, because we've never had to deal with selector lists as a value type in any abstraction other than the prelude of a qualified rule.
17:49:26 <innov4ti> Hmm, is there a delimiter that cannot appear in a selector list that could safely separate them?
18:08:29 <fantasai> slashes aren't currently used in selectors
18:13:24 <innov4ti> @--import buttons / badges from url(bootstrap.css);
18:14:17 <innov4ti> or should it have a grouping thing like brackets ()'s: @--import (a / b, c) from url(styles.css);
18:15:10 <innov4ti> (BTW thanks for the feedback, both of you <3 )
18:17:33 <innov4ti> I am using syntax like /--custom-combinator/ with slashes inside selectors, but it should be possible to tell those apart from other uses of slashes because they are /--<ident>/
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19:51:44 <TabAtkins> I wouldn't exclude / from possibility, yeah
19:52:37 <TabAtkins> Is "buttons" supposed to be a selector there?
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21:02:00 <innov4ti> TabAtkins also toying with the idea of 'named' blocks like @--export buttons { selector {} selector:hover {} } etc
21:02:47 <innov4ti> maybe it should be anonymous 'default' exports or named exports only and no selector lists at all 🤔 might simplify things
21:05:47 <innov4ti> (and typing out selector lists sounds tedious)
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10:08:53 <mrodland> Hi. There are still some issues that needs to be ironed out to make ::first-letter work in non English languages. I've created some GitHub issues to cover the problems I've found. Is there anything else I should do?
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17:02:35 <astearns> mrodland: I see https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5154 - did you open any other issue?
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05:29:00 <mrodland> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2040 is also related.
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16:04:40 <astearns> mrodland: thanks. One extra thing you could do is open bugs in Blink/Webkit/Gecko about how they're handling things badly, pointing to the spec issues you have raised. That can provide some motivation for people to make progress on the spec issues.
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06:15:32 <mrodland> astearns: Thanks. There is a 4 year old chromium issue that points out that the spec must be changed before doing anything. It seems like a chicken and egg situation 😅 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=638267
06:30:49 <mrodland> A 10 year old bugzilla issue points out the same thing: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=602459
06:48:57 <fantasai> mrodland: Poke me about it in July? I've got a couple deadlines this month, so I gotta prioritize other things, but I can look into it then.
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07:00:06 <mrodland> fantasai: Thank you :)
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