18:57:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #immersive-web
18:57:27 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/05/26-immersive-web-irc
18:58:20 <atsushi> agenda+ administrivia#96 Virtual TPAC??? [AdaRoseCannon]
18:58:45 <atsushi> agenda+  webxr#1036 "Ensure an immersive device" cannot be run in parallel [Manishearth]
18:59:02 <atsushi> agenda+ webxr#1041 Reporting pose data depends on the state of the document? [Manishearth]
18:59:09 <Manishearth> present+
18:59:20 <atsushi> agenda+ webxr#1058 Various changes around null and emulated poses [Manishearth]
18:59:30 <atsushi> zakim, clear agenda
18:59:30 <Zakim> agenda cleared
18:59:33 <atsushi> agenda+ administrivia#96 Virtual TPAC??? [AdaRoseCannon]
18:59:36 <atsushi> agenda+  webxr#1036 "Ensure an immersive device" cannot be run in parallel [Manishearth]
19:00:03 <atsushi> agenda+ webxr#1041 Reporting pose data depends on the state of the document? [Manishearth]
19:00:03 <cwervo> cwervo has joined #immersive-web
19:00:09 <atsushi>  agenda+ webxr#1058 Various changes around null and emulated poses [Manishearth]
19:00:13 <atsushi> zakim, list agenda
19:00:13 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
19:00:14 <bajones> bajones has joined #Immersive-Web
19:00:15 <Zakim> 1. administrivia#96 Virtual TPAC??? [from AdaRoseCannon via atsushi]
19:00:15 <Zakim> 2. webxr#1036 "Ensure an immersive device" cannot be run in parallel [from Manishearth via atsushi]
19:00:15 <Zakim> 3. webxr#1041 Reporting pose data depends on the state of the document? [from Manishearth via atsushi]
19:00:15 <Zakim> 4. webxr#1058 Various changes around null and emulated poses [from Manishearth via atsushi]
19:00:25 <bajones> +present
19:00:25 <atsushi> agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/master/meetings/wg/2020-05-26-Immersive_Web_Working_Group_Teleconference-agenda.md
19:01:00 <atsushi> rrsagent, make log public
19:01:08 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes v2
19:01:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/26-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:01:10 <Leonard> Leonard has joined #immersive-web
19:01:11 <cwervo> +present
19:01:30 <atsushi> date: 26 May, 2020
19:01:39 <atsushi> meeting: Immersive Web Working Group Teleconference - 2020-05-26
19:01:59 <atsushi> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/05/12-immersive-web-minutes.html
19:02:24 <Leonard> present+
19:02:25 <atsushi> yonet: please present+ again; bajones, cwervo: use present+ instead of +present
19:02:45 <cwervo> present+
19:02:50 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes v2
19:02:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/26-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:03:02 <cabanier> cabanier has joined #immersive-web
19:03:03 <cwilso> present+
19:03:08 <cabanier> present+
19:03:23 <RafaelCintron> RafaelCintron has joined #immersive-web
19:03:24 <alcooper> alcooper has joined #immersive-web
19:03:53 <bialpio> bialpio has joined #immersive-web
19:04:07 <kip> kip has joined #immersive-web
19:04:43 <dino> dino has joined #immersive-web
19:05:04 <mounir> present+
19:07:24 <Manishearth> present+\
19:07:25 <Manishearth> present+
19:07:38 <avadacatavra> avadacatavra has joined #immersive-web
19:07:38 <cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
19:07:43 <alexturn> alexturn has joined #immersive-web
19:08:04 <cabanier> topic: administrivia#96 Virtual TPAC
19:08:10 <cabanier> ada: there is no tpac
19:08:16 <cabanier> cwilso: w3c made tpac virtual
19:08:45 <cabanier> ada: we were thinking so we hold a weeklong of one hour meetings?
19:08:57 <cabanier> ... or just ignore it and just have our regular meeting
19:09:07 <bajones> q+
19:09:07 <cabanier> ... or have a video chat all day long?
19:09:16 <cabanier> ... does anyone have any suggestions?
19:09:22 <avadacatavra> q+
19:09:46 <cabanier> ... please drop us an email and we'll try to work something out
19:09:49 <Manishearth> ack L
19:09:56 <ada> ack Leonard
19:10:08 <cabanier> Leonard: I've been in several meeting. Let's restirct to 2-3 hours and no weekends
19:10:21 <cabanier> ... maybe tuesday-thursday
19:10:28 <cabanier> ... just give us enough notive
19:10:29 <artem> artem has joined #immersive-web
19:10:37 <cabanier> ... 4+ hours is too long
19:10:50 <ada> ack bajones
19:10:55 <cabanier> bajones: I agree with Leonard
19:11:00 <Manishearth> q+
19:11:18 <cabanier> ... more beneficial to break it into smaller meetings
19:11:24 <cabanier> ... we also have time zone issues
19:11:52 <cabanier> ... it also depends on the agenda items
19:11:53 <Leonard> My statement wasn't recorded correctly: It should be no meetings on weekends, but the meeting could run on multiple weeks.
19:11:56 <Leonard> q+
19:12:34 <cabanier> ada: replicating the TPAC is a non-goal for me. Very stressful
19:12:41 <cabanier> ... so something less intense would be nice
19:12:56 <cabanier> ... but having shared meetings with other groups is nice
19:13:12 <cabanier> ... does anyone thing we should meet with other groups
19:13:14 <ada> ack avadacatavra
19:13:41 <cabanier> avadacatavra: I did TPAC virtually last year and it was painful because of time zone and family issues
19:14:10 <cabanier> ... it can be rough if it's one hour each day especially if it's the middle of the night
19:14:21 <cabanier> ... it's better if it's one full day
19:14:42 <bajones> +1 for hubs!
19:14:45 <cabanier> ... also, mozilla hubs is great for this. I've used it before and it works really well
19:14:57 <cabanier> ... the social part is great
19:15:00 <yonet> +1 and hearts for hubs
19:15:18 <cabanier> ada: if any group should use hubs, it's us!
19:15:35 <cabanier> avadacatavra: hubs is mozilla's social vr experience
19:15:43 <cabanier> ... work in vr but also in 2d
19:15:52 <cabanier> ... it has spatialized audio
19:16:02 <cabanier> ada: that's a great idea
19:16:09 <ada> ack Manishearth
19:16:28 <cabanier> Manishearth: if we want to do more than 2 hour of meetings, we should split it out
19:16:48 <cabanier> ... sometimes people want to step back and have a small meeting
19:17:00 <cabanier> dino: the css group had a virtual meeting
19:17:27 <cabanier> ... which worked out great. it went over several weeks
19:17:29 <ada> ack Leonard
19:18:03 <cabanier> Leonard: I agree with the timing of the meetings. ??? started meetings earlier to accomodate other time zone
19:18:08 <ada> q+
19:18:20 <cabanier> ... if it's US and Europe, do it early in the day
19:18:39 <cabanier> ... it's good to have social and hallway meeeting
19:18:54 <ada> ack ada
19:19:26 <cabanier> ada: one thing that would work well. Over a week we'd have meetings over 3 days
19:19:45 <Leonard> +1 to Ada's suggestion
19:19:46 <cabanier> ... and we'd group people in meetings that they care about in the right time zones
19:19:49 <yonet> +1
19:19:49 <avadacatavra> +1
19:20:08 <cabanier> ... I'll make a strawman proposal and then we'll see it from there
19:20:33 <cabanier> ... I'll do that this coming week but please email suggestions
19:20:46 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 2
19:20:46 <Zakim> agendum 2. "webxr#1036 "Ensure an immersive device" cannot be run in parallel" taken up [from Manishearth via atsushi]
19:21:07 <cabanier> Manishearth: this is a tricky issue because we've shipped a broken API
19:21:12 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes v2
19:21:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/26-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:21:18 <cabanier> ... right now we support device selection
19:21:35 <cabanier> ...but we're relying on a synchronous mechanism
19:22:02 <cabanier> ... this is bad because the main thread is blocked
19:22:10 <cabanier> ... there are a couple of paths forward
19:22:28 <cabanier> ... the xrcompatible flag is there but not used by any UA
19:22:57 <cabanier> ... ??? but this will break existing content
19:23:07 <Manishearth> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1036#issuecomment-629598102
19:23:16 <cabanier> ... the other option is to leave it as is
19:23:53 <cabanier> (see agenda description for all the options)
19:24:08 <cabanier> ... I'm leaning towards option 4 but I want to consider option 2
19:24:18 <cabanier> ... because I don't like the patching of this in the webxr spec
19:24:27 <RafaelCintron> q+
19:24:36 <ada> ack RafaelCintron
19:25:08 <cabanier> RafaelCintron: there are cl in the works to use the xrcompatible flag for use in hybrid devices
19:25:25 <cabanier> ... right now it completely doesn't work on their hardware
19:25:43 <cabanier> ... so the more we can solve this without breaking content, I'll prefer
19:26:00 <cabanier> ... I agree that all options are less than ideal
19:26:16 <bajones> q+
19:26:25 <cabanier> Manishearth: the tag and people from mozilla are opposed to slow synchronous
19:26:44 <cabanier> ... with the change devices that works should keep working
19:26:58 <ada> ack bajones
19:27:00 <cabanier> RafaelCintron: maybe we should require the xrcompatible flag.
19:27:06 <cabanier> Manishearth: that is my suggestion
19:27:23 <cabanier> bajones: I don't like that since we're not CR, we can break things
19:27:42 <cabanier> ... we should have recognition that this was something we preferred
19:27:43 <kip> q+ to mention that we should also consult with the WebGL group for their feedback.
19:27:56 <cabanier> ... this is already in place for webgl and canvas 2d
19:27:57 <Manishearth> q+
19:28:34 <cabanier> ... when you call getcontext you could force a context loss
19:28:49 <cabanier> ... but that is not a good option. it harms usability of the API
19:29:02 <cabanier> ... so what we picked avoided the worst path
19:29:16 <cabanier> ... the other thing was that we made the page xrcompatible
19:29:32 <cabanier> ... so that every context on that page would be xr compatible
19:29:42 <cabanier> ... we don't want slow and synchronous
19:30:02 <RafaelCintron> q+
19:30:04 <cabanier> ... we're backed into a corner because of the existing webgl behavior
19:30:21 <ada> ack kip
19:30:21 <Zakim> kip, you wanted to mention that we should also consult with the WebGL group for their feedback.
19:30:27 <cabanier> kip: given that we have some options, I got some feedback from the webgl group
19:30:31 <bajones> q+
19:30:35 <ada> ack Manishearth
19:30:37 <cabanier> ... we should fix it from the beginning
19:30:57 <cabanier> Manishearth: I don't agree that we should make breaking changes since we're not in CR
19:31:05 <kip> present+
19:31:12 <cabanier> ... I don't like slow and synchround
19:31:37 <cabanier> ... but if we already have run device selection, we can give you the right devices right away
19:32:10 <cabanier> ... so the only time to get the context loss event is if you already run issessionsupported
19:32:23 <cabanier> ... if you haven't run issessionsupported
19:32:43 <yonet> q?
19:32:48 <cabanier> RafaelCintron: there was an option where the webxr runtime gives you a context
19:32:49 <ada> sorry I fell off the internet
19:32:59 <Manishearth> q+
19:33:06 <cabanier> ... in that case, we'd have to care about context loss
19:33:14 <Manishearth> q-
19:33:17 <ada> cwilso: could you chair?
19:33:32 <mounir> q+
19:33:36 <cwilso> ack raf
19:33:38 <mounir> q-
19:33:48 <cwilso> ack ba
19:34:34 <cabanier> bajones: I wanted to point out that the context loss option is a terrible option for users
19:34:53 <cabanier> ... since they never expect this to option. some frameworks might handle it
19:35:35 <cabanier> ... in webgpu, the equivalent hook is asynchronous. so moving forward this problem will go away
19:36:14 <cabanier> ... it's not great to be synchronous, it's a result of legacy APIs
19:36:34 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 3
19:36:34 <Zakim> agendum 3. "webxr#1041 Reporting pose data depends on the state of the document?" taken up [from Manishearth via atsushi]
19:36:51 <cabanier> Manishearth: I will focus on this one since it's security related
19:37:02 <cwilso> cwilso has changed the topic to: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/master/meetings/wg/2020-05-26-Immersive_Web_Working_Group_Teleconference-agenda.md
19:37:09 <cabanier> ... we have a check in the spec about the hidden state of the document
19:37:26 <cabanier> ... so we don't return poses if the user is not interacting with the page
19:37:42 <cabanier> ... this might have unintended UX experiences
19:37:58 <alexturn> q+ to talk about XR topmost vs. 2D focus
19:38:00 <cabanier> ... also we should never throw during unexpected things
19:38:14 <cabanier> ... so we should return a null pose instead
19:38:20 <Manishearth> q?
19:38:26 <ada> ack alexturn
19:38:26 <Zakim> alexturn, you wanted to talk about XR topmost vs. 2D focus
19:38:54 <cabanier> alexturn: we hit this on wmr and we ended a spit option on focus
19:39:19 <cabanier> ... there's the one traditional focus such as keyboard input
19:39:33 <cabanier> ... the way we handle xr stuff, it's more xr topmost
19:39:50 <cabanier> ... the thing that is on top of an xr scene gets the input
19:40:14 <cabanier> ... I don't have we can put this in spec text
19:40:40 <cabanier> ... if the user agent has logically switch away, everything should be going away
19:40:51 <bajones> q+
19:40:58 <cabanier> ... definitely exceptions shouldn't happen if the user switches away
19:40:59 <ada> ack bajones
19:41:09 <avadacatavra> q+
19:41:24 <cabanier> bajones: yes, throwing exceptions is a bad thing. a pose of null is much better
19:41:37 <cabanier> ... I
19:41:59 <Manishearth> q+
19:42:09 <cabanier> ... I don't remember exactly where the original security  spect text came from since John Pallet is no longer on the team
19:42:24 <mounir> q+
19:42:31 <cabanier> ... personally, clicking on devtools while in vr stops the scene which is a bit annoying
19:42:35 <alexturn> q+
19:42:39 <ada> ack avadacatavra
19:43:09 <cabanier> avadacatavra: what I'm hearing, that the usability here is problematic
19:43:36 <cabanier> ... I'm unsure that the security angle is handled by null poses so we should go that route
19:43:49 <cabanier> bajones: can you expand that?
19:44:08 <alexturn> q+ to talk about how we already have XRVisibilityState to represent this discussion in a more nuanced way
19:44:16 <cabanier> avadacatavra: what we don't want that if you're not in focus, that the non-focused page gets input
19:44:35 <cabanier> ... what we're having, is if you're going away, you freeze
19:44:53 <cabanier> ... we shouldn't be errorring on that. We want null poses
19:45:06 <yonet> q?
19:45:23 <cabanier> Manishearth: should we always have no poses when the document is hidden?
19:45:31 <cabanier> avadacatavra: I have to think about it
19:45:56 <cabanier> Manishearth: there seems consensus that there is no exception thrown
19:46:36 <cabanier> mounir: usually devices don't expose changes when the document is not visible
19:46:58 <cabanier> ... originally I was surprised about the focus usage in webxr
19:47:16 <cabanier> ... most pages still work while not in focus
19:47:29 <avadacatavra> a+
19:47:31 <avadacatavra> q+
19:47:37 <cabanier> ... the related API show if the page is visible
19:48:00 <cabanier> ... so maybe delaying until the page is visible again is an option
19:48:21 <cabanier> alexturn: I wanted to note that the spec is using document visibility
19:48:44 <cabanier> ... since we have the xr visibility state which was intended to work around this
19:48:45 <Manishearth> q?
19:48:49 <Manishearth> ack M
19:48:51 <Manishearth> ack Manish
19:48:54 <Manishearth> ack alexturn
19:48:54 <Zakim> alexturn, you wanted to talk about how we already have XRVisibilityState to represent this discussion in a more nuanced way
19:49:01 <cabanier> ... when you switch to a different tab
19:49:24 <cabanier> ... the middle state of visible blurred is to keep rendering but not get focus
19:49:40 <ada> q?
19:49:40 <cabanier> ... so maybe this is legacy content in the spec that needs to be updated
19:49:50 <ada> ack avadacatavra
19:50:29 <cabanier> avadacatavra: we're using visible blurred for simple yes/no but not for keyboard input
19:51:10 <cabanier> ... I'd say that in my opinion, there's no reason to throw a security error unless we can find the original issue that John Pallet was trying to fix
19:51:14 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 4
19:51:14 <Zakim> agendum 4. "webxr#1058 Various changes around null and emulated poses" taken up [from Manishearth via atsushi]
19:51:29 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes v2
19:51:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/26-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:51:37 <cabanier> Manishearth: this handles a bunch of things around null poses
19:51:59 <cabanier> ... right now, poses are never null except if there have never been any poses during a session
19:52:17 <atsushi> s/present+\//
19:52:19 <cabanier> ... it makes sense for getviewerpose
19:52:33 <atsushi> present+ ada, alexturn, avadacatavra, bajones, dino, RafaelCintron
19:52:50 <cabanier> ... but this makes getpose return null
19:52:54 <alexturn> q+ to ask if input sources would just deenumerate
19:53:21 <ada> ack alexturn
19:53:21 <Zakim> alexturn, you wanted to ask if input sources would just deenumerate
19:53:24 <cabanier> ... it also fixes the 674 change, to get a reference space until it is trackable
19:53:27 <bialpio> q+
19:53:27 <bajones> q+
19:53:48 <cabanier> alexturn: for something like a controller, it might go out of tracking fov
19:54:03 <cabanier> ... so is this for example when hands go out of space?
19:54:25 <cabanier> ... my model is during those times the hands are no longer enumerated
19:54:36 <cabanier> Manishearth: for input that works ok
19:54:40 <ada> ack bialpio
19:54:45 <cabanier> ... but not for anchors and fingers
19:55:11 <alexturn> q+
19:55:25 <cabanier> bialpio: we should allow that null poses can be returned
19:55:29 <ada> ack alexturn
19:55:30 <Manishearth> q?
19:55:42 <ada> ack bajones
19:55:42 <cabanier> ... since it fixes a number of issues
19:55:45 <ada> q+ alexturn
19:55:50 <Manishearth> q+ alexturn
19:56:09 <cabanier> bajones: +1 to those. If the controller goes away for a long time, it should go away
19:56:23 <Manishearth> q+
19:56:40 <cabanier> ... ideally controller should never return null but it's not a restriction we can put on the space level
19:57:12 <cabanier> ... for anchor it makes sense to have  pose values if it's far away
19:57:22 <ada> ack alexturn
19:57:49 <cabanier> alexturn: I agree with all this. Anywhere we remove edge cases we can more consistencies
19:58:15 <ada> ack Manishearth
19:58:19 <cabanier> ... if we carve it out and remove it from input source space, ???
19:58:53 <cabanier> Manishearth: specifically for hand input, if it disappeard and comes back, the order in the array might have changed
19:59:04 <cabanier> ... this could lead to content missing things up
19:59:15 <alexturn> q+
19:59:31 <ada> ack alexturn
19:59:34 <cabanier> ... for controllers we don't have this issue because even if they're out of fov, they are still in communication
19:59:53 <kip> q+ To mention that things like vive tracker's should probably not de-enumerate
20:00:03 <cabanier> alexturn: pages might get confused if your hands input goes away and comes back
20:00:21 <ada> ack kip
20:00:21 <Zakim> kip, you wanted to mention that things like vive tracker's should probably not de-enumerate
20:00:37 <cabanier> kip: vive trackers. you might have a bunch of them
20:00:53 <cabanier> ... if they disappeared and reappeared, the mapping would be lost each time
20:01:04 <cabanier> Manishearth: true. that's an issue
20:01:08 <bialpio> q+
20:01:20 <ada> ack bialpio
20:01:34 <avadacatavra> q+
20:01:48 <ada> ack avadacatavra
20:01:50 <cabanier> bialpio: a quick notice, we are giving sites raw camera access
20:02:09 <cabanier> avadacatavra: we are also experimenting with immersive navigation on hubs
20:02:48 <cabanier> ... and we're experimenting with immersive trusted UI
20:04:23 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes v2
20:04:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/26-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
20:22:27 <atsushi> s/(see agenda)/... (see agenda)/
20:23:00 <atsushi> s/... I$//
20:23:02 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes v2
20:23:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/26-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
20:24:05 <atsushi> s|s/(see agenda)/... (see agenda)/||
20:24:12 <atsushi> s/(see agenda /... (see agenda /
20:24:14 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes v2
20:24:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/26-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
20:43:31 <rzr> About hubs may I share this little demo : https://twitter.com/RzrFreeFr/status/1264481035896721409