20:30:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat
20:30:55 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-irc
20:32:04 <riccardoAlbertoni> regrets+ SimonCox
20:32:49 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:32:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
20:33:25 <riccardoAlbertoni> chair: riccardoAlbertoni
20:34:15 <riccardoAlbertoni>  RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:34:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
20:36:28 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:36:42 <riccardoAlbertoni>  RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:36:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
20:37:07 <riccardoAlbertoni> regrets+ Alejandra
20:37:30 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+ riccardoAlbertoni
20:57:00 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #dxwgdcat
21:04:14 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
21:04:31 <AndreaPerego> present+
21:05:40 <PWinstanley> present+
21:05:59 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:05:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
21:06:04 <PWinstanley> scribenick: PWinstanley
21:06:05 <AndreaPerego> trackbot, start meeting
21:06:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
21:06:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Dataset Exchange Working Group Teleconference
21:06:11 <trackbot> Date: 20 May 2020
21:06:43 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:06:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:06:59 <riccardoAlbertoni> PROPOSED: approve last meeting minutes  https://www.w3.org/2020/04/29-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:07:01 <PWinstanley> proposed:  accept last meeting minutes
21:07:11 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:07:39 <AndreaPerego> +1 (but I'm missing from the participants)
21:08:17 <AndreaPerego> meeting: DXWG DCAT subgroup call
21:08:20 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:08:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:08:25 <PWinstanley> resolved:  accept last meeting minutes
21:08:28 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:08:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:09:25 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: agenda mainly to attend to the wiki page on versioning and to consider next steps
21:09:38 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/wiki/Material-for-a-SPRINT-on-Versioning
21:10:13 <AndreaPerego> topic: Versioning
21:10:19 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:10:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:10:27 <PWinstanley> ... there are 2 main sections - the vocabularies, and the principles we may want to consider - and also strategies
21:11:11 <AndreaPerego> s/.../riccardoAlbertoni:/
21:11:15 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:11:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:11:38 <PWinstanley> ... Starting with the section on vocabularies: there is a table gathering the vocabulary terms (thanks AndreaPerego ) organised according to the versioning aspect that the term/s consider
21:12:05 <PWinstanley> ... this is the first step in evaluation
21:12:12 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:12:59 <PWinstanley> ... In the subsections there are descriptions of each of the vocabularies with consideration of how suitable they might be for our solution (but this is not the official opinion of the group)
21:14:21 <PWinstanley> ... Some adjustments are still needed.  Pros and cons are not handled consistently . The Registered Version vocabulary is missing.
21:14:50 <PWinstanley> ack AndreaPerego
21:16:23 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: I was trying to group the terms of the vocabularies to help understand the different aspects but if there are other approaches for classification the table can be reorganised
21:17:30 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: the table is very useful.  I have been looking at requirements but haven't found anything more precise.  At some point we need to fix the requirements that we have
21:17:32 <PWinstanley> q+
21:18:47 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
21:19:46 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack PWinstanley
21:20:00 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley: is there any distinction between 'lineage' and 'provenance'
21:20:00 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack riccardoAlbertoni
21:20:42 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: here we are concerned with a specific aspect of provenance which is 'versioning'
21:21:43 <PWinstanley> ... I think that Prov is very flexible and can address many uses, but versioning is more specific than provenance
21:21:49 <PWinstanley> q+
21:21:53 <riccardoAlbertoni> axk
21:21:57 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack PWinstanley
21:22:09 <AndreaPerego> s/axk//
21:22:13 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:22:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:23:06 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley: perhaps we need to establish what is the difference between a new dataset and a version change
21:23:22 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:23:30 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: we have discussed this elsewhere and cannot provide much guidance
21:24:23 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: one reason for the table is to help understand if there are aspects of versioning covered by more than one vocabulary - this would indicate that there are aspects common across communities
21:25:24 <PWinstanley> ... We also need to understand how we can look at versioning not as a concept but as an activity ...
21:26:02 <PWinstanley> ... We need to understand what we are targeting - if it is too abstract then we risk not being applicable/ adopted
21:26:16 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
21:26:20 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
21:26:30 <PWinstanley> ... Are there examples of catalogues where a versioning policy is in place?
21:27:13 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: we need to determine if there are new terms required in DCAT
21:27:33 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/wiki/Material-for-a-SPRINT-on-Versioning#2-design-considerations
21:29:14 <PWinstanley> ... if we move quickly on the design considerations (see link) then we need to ensure that DCAT is an interoperability solution, perhaps between the diverse approaches for versioning.  In the desiderata 2 there are simple competency questions (CQs)
21:29:34 <PWinstanley> ... which we need to validate against the existing vocabularies
21:29:58 <PWinstanley> ... if we discuss provenance, lineage, etc we end up in the weeds and miss the point about versioning
21:31:21 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: I recall discussions about statistical data where statistical agencies are keeping versions, but for others there is no use in storing different copies.  But Zenodo, for instance, supports versioning through URIs
21:31:50 <PWinstanley> ... The idea is that in research data I should be able to use the exact data used for analysis
21:32:27 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:32:28 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: in this first stage we should focus on the terminology and leave the guidance to later
21:33:05 <PWinstanley> ... we need to focus on requirements and CQs and then we can build examples using the vocabs you provided
21:33:43 <PWinstanley> ... communities differ in their interpretation of the term 'version', so we should avoid generalisation
21:33:55 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: I agree
21:35:24 <PWinstanley> ... I am also not sure that we can provide guidance at the moment.  My concern about where we should put this is relevant too - in the standard or in the primer
21:35:57 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: I think the answer depends on the need or otherwise to develop new terms for DCAT
21:36:38 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:36:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:36:53 <PWinstanley> ... There are many vocabs out there providing some versioning support - but we need to consider what elements we want to include (we can't necessarily promote the use of whole vocabularies)
21:37:04 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:37:33 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
21:37:37 <PWinstanley> ... We need to form the recommendation first to see if we are discussing new terms or simply the use of existing
21:40:17 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: I agree.  Are you or Peter taking this forward?  We need a roadmap . FRBR includes a vocabulary for derivations of works.  We can reach out to other experts in the group, and see if this is helpful for defining the versioning vocabulary and the practice
21:40:31 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
21:42:56 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:43:03 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: I'm not expert in these vocabulaires, but am following the vocabularies and and am looking for what will work.  I am cautious about asking the group for their views as to what works because there are similar elements in many domain vocabularies.  My attempt was to see if there is a strategy without asking for wide generic feedback, and this is in the last part of the document
21:43:34 <PWinstanley> ... Perhaps AndreaPerego proposal could be re-worked to ask specific questions rather than general ones
21:43:39 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
21:44:32 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: I think it is right to avoid generic feedback but to focus on expert feedback and then make a proposal for the whole group to see if it needs more input or not
21:44:50 <PWinstanley> q+
21:45:36 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
21:45:48 <PWinstanley> ... The feedback I'm missing at the moment is about FRBR
21:47:28 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
21:47:31 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack
21:47:39 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack PWinstanley
21:47:47 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:47:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:48:04 <riccardoAlbertoni> yes ..
21:48:23 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley: first point: perhaps we need to get wide agreement on the CQs. the tight focus of the CQs will direct the solution
21:48:41 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:48:45 <PWinstanley> ... second point:  to add a review of the SPAR ontologies into the mix:  http://www.sparontologies.net/ontologies
21:49:10 <riccardoAlbertoni> ok
21:49:24 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack
21:49:28 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
21:49:31 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack riccardoAlbertoni
21:50:30 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://www.rd-alliance.org/group/data-versioning-wg/outcomes/principles-and-best-practices-data-versioning-all-data-sets-big
21:51:38 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: I agree with the CQs point.  My main concern is that the SPAR ontologies might be interpreted a different way when it comes to data.  Same with RDA.  When looking at RDA
21:51:52 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley: My reference to RDA was for https://www.oclc.org/en/rda/about.html
21:52:26 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: the Research Data Alliance (RDA) had a difference between versions of documents and versions of datasets
21:53:24 <PWinstanley> ... I'm not sure if the 4-level structure of FRBR fits with data, because in DCAT we said already that all first-class objects are subject to versioning
21:53:31 <riccardoAlbertoni> Frbr
21:53:54 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
21:54:02 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
21:54:05 <PWinstanley> ... I would use FRBR to complement the solution, and only in that librarian community
21:54:37 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: the SPAR ontologies can be reviewed but some are already based on ones that we have looked at.
21:56:00 <PWinstanley> ... I wonder whether adding other vocabularies can be helpful or not.  Perhaps it could be done in parallel; but we need concrete steps.  We could add an agenda item to the plenary to state the position and to seek feedback from the specialists
21:56:44 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: Should we put a specific issue to the plenary?  I think this is the only way to collect wide feedback
21:57:22 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: it would be good to know if they think our approach makes sense, and to double check that we have all the best relevant vocabularies
21:59:47 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: in the plenary we need to have some specific questions and also invite people to join in.  the risk is that we ask for feedback but nothing happens
22:00:55 <AndreaPerego> q+
22:02:40 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
22:05:24 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:05:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:06:00 <AndreaPerego> [meeting adjourned]
22:06:02 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:06:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:07:00 <AndreaPerego> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2020.05.20
22:07:02 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:07:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/20-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego