15:53:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbg
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15:53:29 <dauwhe> Meeting: Publishing Business Group
15:58:05 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #pbg
15:58:19 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2020-04-28: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Apr/0010.html
15:58:20 <ivan> Chair: liisa
15:58:20 <ivan> Date: 2020-04-28
15:58:20 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Apr/0010.html
15:58:28 <ivan> Regrets+ JulieBlair
15:59:57 <ivan> present+
16:00:45 <wendyreid> present+
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16:01:56 <ivan> present+ liisa
16:01:59 <ivan> present+ dauwhe
16:02:06 <ivan> present+ billk
16:02:13 <ivan> present+ laurent
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16:02:17 <ivan> present+ daihei
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16:02:24 <ivan> present+ ralph
16:02:25 <Ralph> present+
16:02:26 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
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16:02:44 <ivan> present_ cristina, karen, wolfgang
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16:03:06 <Ralph> present+ cristina, karen, wolfgang
16:03:14 <Ralph> s/present_ cristina, karen, wolfgang//
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16:03:58 <Daihei> Present+
16:04:04 <liisamk> present+
16:04:04 <Karen> present+ Karen
16:04:10 <jeff> present+
16:04:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> scribe+
16:04:32 <Karen> +1 welcome Michelle Kelly
16:04:50 <ivan> present+ Michelle_Kelly
16:05:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> Michelle: With Legible Media--platform launching in a month. She works with publishers on NA and expanding to Africa. Angela is here too.
16:06:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> Laurent: Speaking on support of audiobooks at Readium specifically Thorium.
16:06:19 <Avneesh> present+
16:06:39 <ivan> present+ angela_doll
16:07:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . EDRLab--nonprofit global association supported by member fees and grants.
16:07:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Readium: not an application or a reading app. Set of SDKs focusing on different OSs.
16:07:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Focusing on EPUB, supporting LCP
16:08:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Mission is to enable the development of reading apps, incl. audiobooks and image-based publications.
16:08:43 <Avneesh> It is strange, George and I can hear each other on phone line, but cannot hear Laurent
16:09:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Wrt audiobooks, publishers, aggregators, retailers may apply DRM
16:09:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Based on LCP.
16:09:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Currently have 21 apps based on Readium technology.
16:10:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Lots of power in Readium--you will find it in many applications.
16:10:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... R2 Reader is a test application supporting W3C audiobook format.
16:11:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... People still rely on ??? formats for audiobooks
16:11:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... The is also a cloud reader, Readium Web, which is audiobook enabled.
16:12:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... This will support W3C audiobook format when it's finalized.
16:12:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Thorium Reader: Windows 10 and 8, Mac, and Linux.
16:12:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Thorium is totally free, highly accessible, and open source.
16:13:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Right now 20k users on Windows 10; can't tell about Mac or Linux.
16:13:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Majority of users are US, India, and Japan.
16:14:16 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Used a command line tool at first. Then created a mapping from W3C format to internal Readium format.
16:14:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Wanted to be protected by LCP.
16:15:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... You can import a W3C audiobook in an LCP server.
16:15:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... (Transitioned to demo.)
16:16:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Showed moving from track to track, changing speed, etc.
16:16:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... HTML TOC is not yet implemented.
16:17:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... You can have several windows open in Thorium, so you can read in one while listening in another.
16:18:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Demo'ed providing small LCP license with the content.
16:18:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Version 1.3 is out today on Windows, Mac, and Linux. It's in the wild!
16:19:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... LOC in the US wants to install Thorium in various locations in the US.
16:19:26 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... There should be a lot of use of Thorium soon.
16:19:52 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Next steps: Not yet any W3C audiobooks content in the wild.
16:20:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We developed this to support the W3C and enable implementations.
16:20:35 <jeff> q+ to ask about the profiles of those that are downloading
16:21:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... There needs to be support of LCP because publishers require DRM. Need to encourage support.
16:21:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... EDRLab needs financial support. Software is free globally, supported by membership and grants.
16:22:15 <garth> garth has joined #pbg
16:22:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Internationalization: already implemented in multiple languages.
16:22:23 <garth> present+ Garth
16:22:30 <garth> q?
16:22:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Interface is designed to be accessible, e.g. with screenreader; has keyboard shortcuts; etc.
16:23:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... It's able to be customized, of course.
16:23:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We think this is the most accessible application for EPUB, now including audiobooks, on the market today.
16:24:02 <George> George loves Thorium and is using it on Windows.
16:24:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Continuing to work on refinements like display adjustments for accessibility.
16:24:54 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:24:54 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to ask about the profiles of those that are downloading
16:25:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> Jeff: Very interesting--glad to see how you're helping the ecosystem and the standard.
16:25:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... What do we know about the 20k users? Interesting that the 3rd most users are from Japan.
16:25:40 <George> I was in a presentation about Thorium and a dyslexic person said wow I can now read. We were showing a dyslexic friendly font with adjusted spacing and margins.
16:26:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Is there interest in audiobooks in Japan? How do we find out how Thorium is being used there?
16:26:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> Laurent: Good partnership with JPL, good opportunity to localize the application for Japan.
16:26:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Also good potential in Korea and China where we have partners.
16:26:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Good access to libraries in China.
16:26:56 <Daihei> q+
16:27:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> Jeff: Will this be repeated for an Asia-friendly timed PBG call?
16:28:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> Daihei: Very happy to facilitate users in Japan. Don't know about audiobooks in Japan yet.
16:28:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... But interest in this sort of system is high, especially for comics/manga.
16:29:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... I will try to coordinate something for Japanese PBG members and others for Laurent to present to.
16:29:50 <cristina> q+
16:29:57 <ivan> ack Daihei
16:29:57 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:30:00 <liisamk> ack cristina
16:30:11 <George> q+
16:30:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> Cristina: Is Italian implemented?
16:30:29 <ivan> q+
16:30:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> Laurent: No. Not difficult. E.g. Dutch was done by KB.
16:30:45 <liisamk> ack George
16:31:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> George: Very pleased with the accessibility in Thorium--really good. Has ability to turn MathJax on or off for MathML.
16:31:20 <liisamk> ack Ralph
16:31:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ralph: Will I get update notices automatically?
16:31:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> Laurent: Yes.
16:32:08 <liisamk> ack Ivan
16:32:46 <Daihei> @Laurent: will you share the slides with all?
16:32:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> Liisa: Thanks so much, Laurent. We'll work on getting people engaged.
16:32:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> Cristina: Will you share the slides?
16:33:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> Laurent: Yes, I'll send them.
16:33:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> Liisa: Topic: EPUB 3 WG Charter.
16:33:50 <dauwhe> https://w3c.github.io/epub-3-wg-charter/
16:34:00 <Ralph> -> https://github.com/w3c/epub-3-wg-charter/issues EPUB 3 WG charter issues
16:34:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> dauwhe: There are a few issues. See link.
16:34:25 <Ralph> i/Liisa: Topic: EPUB 3 WG Charter/Topic: EPUB 3 WG Charter
16:34:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... I added a bunch of success criteria. Hope that will help us focus the scopel
16:34:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/28-pbg-minutes.html Ralph
16:35:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... E.g., multiple implementations, all features supported, changes should fix real issues in the ecosystem, etc.
16:35:22 <ivan> q+
16:35:25 <Ralph> [Dave reads from section 3. Success Criteria]
16:35:47 <Ralph> -> https://w3c.github.io/epub-3-wg-charter/#success-criteria 3. Success Criteria
16:35:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Still want people to continue commenting.
16:35:52 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:36:16 <liisamk> q+
16:36:20 <dauwhe> q+
16:36:22 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ivan: One open PR, along the lines of what Dave said. Puts removal of existing features out of scope.
16:36:30 <liisamk> q-
16:36:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Hope this addresses the concerns about disrupting the existing market.
16:36:47 <Ralph> -> https://github.com/w3c/epub-3-wg-charter/pull/29 pull #29
16:37:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Two related issues still pending.
16:37:15 <Daihei> q+
16:37:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Duration of the WG. Google questions whether 2 years is enough.
16:37:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Also Dave raised the issue that the timing in the charter are guidelines rather than hardcore limits.
16:38:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Not 100% sure if all AC members will be happy with that, but let's see.
16:38:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... One comment from Mateus still in the works.
16:39:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... WG taking on responsibility for IDPF registries is another issue.
16:39:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Would still like to have more comments from publishers globally.
16:39:40 <Ralph> i/Laurent: Speaking on support of audiobooks/topic: Thorium Reader (EDRlab)
16:39:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Need that before starting the AC process.
16:39:51 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
16:40:19 <Avneesh> q+
16:40:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> dauwhe: Looking at making the scope a bit smaller. Right now we have a mix of WG and CG incubating features.
16:41:02 <liisamk> q+
16:41:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Maybe we should leave the incubation to the CG and focus the WG on writing and executing tests, getting language precise, etc.
16:41:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> .... What is the least change we can accomplish for EPUB 3.x to get the spec to Rec quality level.
16:41:27 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:42:07 <ivan> q+
16:42:26 <wendyreid> q+
16:42:43 <Ralph> -> https://github.com/w3c/epub-3-wg-charter/issues/31 Takami-san's comment #31
16:42:52 <Bill_Kasdorf> Daihei: Totally agree--we need comments globally. Two new questions: disruption from new version and potential disruptions by HTML5 serialization.
16:43:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ivan: ??? proposed a change that we have accepted and closed the issue.
16:43:34 <wendyreid> s/???/Takami-san/
16:43:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Adding a version of EPUB that is not backwards compatible would be very problematic.
16:44:08 <wendyreid> q-
16:44:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... This charter is not for the long term future; it is focused on the next 2-3 years.
16:44:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Perhaps we should keep such issues in a parking lot for future consideration.
16:44:26 <laurent_> present+
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16:44:32 <laurent_> q?
16:44:53 <liisamk> ack Avneesh
16:44:57 <ivan> q-
16:45:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> Avneesh: Agree to have WG focus on quality of spec and CG to focus on incubation.
16:45:21 <dauwhe> q+
16:45:22 <Ralph> i|Laurent: Speaking on support|https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Apr/0012.html "Laurent's email" with pointer to his presentation
16:45:26 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Wrt EPUBCheck, is the WG taking responsibility for that?
16:45:34 <ivan> q+
16:45:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> Liisa: Somewhere the responsibility for EPUBCheck needs to be explicit.
16:45:57 <ivan> ack liisamk
16:46:13 <wendyreid> q+
16:46:24 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Re new features, need to think about how we get incubation to happen in time for the charter timespan.
16:46:26 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
16:46:38 <Avneesh> q+
16:46:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... I would like to see some new features coming out of the survey.
16:47:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> dauwhe: EPUBCheck is critical part of the ecosystem, it needs to fully support EPUB 3.x or it will be a failure.
16:47:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... WG needs to do everything possible to enable EPUBCheck to support its work
16:47:33 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:47:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/28-pbg-minutes.html Ralph
16:48:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ivan: Some discussions were pushing EPUBCheck into a reference implementation, which I pushed back on.
16:48:22 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Avneesh, please look through charter text and let us know what needs alteration.
16:48:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... EPUBCheck should be in cooperation with the WG but the work should probably be elsewhere.
16:48:51 <liisamk> ack wendyreid
16:49:16 <Ralph> s/. . . EDRLab/... EDRLab
16:49:22 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Wendy: Agree with Ivan. We discussed EPUBCheck extensively. Can't make WG responsible for it but it needs to have a big hand in making it successful.
16:49:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Wrt reframing the charter deliverables: I think we need to push more incubation to the CG.
16:49:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We have a number of features that are in demand and needed.
16:50:24 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Important for CG to test those out. E.g., HTML5, APIs, JavaScript need incubation in the CG.
16:50:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Just revising the spec will be a 2-year project.
16:50:48 <Avneesh> q-
16:50:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Taking out the incubation work makes that more achievable and lets the CG work in parallel.
16:51:26 <ivan> q+
16:51:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Should result in a much better spec informed by the CG incubation work, rather than rushing that in at the end.
16:51:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... It's very important work and shouldn't be rushed.
16:51:44 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:52:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Ivan: Should we modify the text about new features to be explicit that the new features must go through an incubation period in the CG.
16:52:26 <dauwhe> q?
16:52:55 <liisamk> +1 to Ivan's suggestion
16:52:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Making the process more explicit and more binding is needed.
16:53:02 <jeff> q+
16:53:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We need to be careful not to tie the hands of the WG.
16:53:12 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:53:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> Jeff: Very good comments. These conversations are less chartering issues and more chairing issues.
16:53:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/28-pbg-minutes.html Ralph
16:54:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... It will be very healthy on an ongoing basis for the chairs of the WG to keep track of what's going on in parallel in the CG.
16:54:31 <dauwhe> +1 to Jeff
16:54:41 <liisamk> https://github.com/w3c/epub-rs-bugs
16:54:56 <ivan> q+
16:55:04 <Ralph> i|https://|topic: Launch of EPUB Reading System Bug GitHub Repo
16:55:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> Liisa: My team will start populating some of the RS bugs (see link).
16:55:17 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:55:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ivan: I set up the Github repo but it's currently an empty shell.
16:55:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... It needs some explanatory text.
16:55:34 <garth> q+
16:55:40 <liisamk> ack garth
16:55:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> Liisa: Will do.
16:56:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> Garth: There are only two more meetings of the PBG scheduled. Let me know what to do about that.
16:56:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> Liisa: Will do that too.
16:56:29 <Ralph> topic: Update on EU standardization process
16:57:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> Cristina: Re EU standardization process. Have met with group responsibility for accessibility requirements in EU.
16:57:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Included George, Avneesh, Judy Brewer, et al.
16:57:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... The Commission may ask for a mandate, which will look for available standards to base on.
16:58:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... EPUB Accessibility spec is being submitted to ISO.
16:58:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... ISO standard should be evaluated by EU Commission.
16:58:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Another option is an ISO TS which might not go through EU standardization body.
16:59:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Spec needs a very strong technical basis and needs to conform with current EU requirements in development.
16:59:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We think the TS route is best because the EU body may create some changes.
17:00:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Need to assess alignment of EPUB Accessibility with the  EU accessibility act.
17:01:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... The commission may rely on more than one technical specification.
17:01:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... This work is moving pretty quickly.
17:01:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Looking to have a mandate by next June.
17:02:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We have time now to address this so we can be ready when the commission needs something from us.
17:02:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Feel free to be in touch with me if you need more information
17:03:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> [Ivan what do I need to do now?]
17:03:23 <ivan> you: nothing
17:03:38 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
17:03:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ivan, wendyreid, George, liisa, dauwhe, billk, laurent, daihei, ralph, Bill_Kasdorf, cristina, karen, wolfgang, liisamk, jeff,
17:03:41 <Zakim> ... Michelle_Kelly, Avneesh, angela_doll, Garth, laurent_
17:03:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:03:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/28-pbg-minutes.html Zakim
17:03:43 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:03:47 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
17:03:56 <ivan> I will do the rest, but Ralph may beat me into it
17:03:56 <ivan> he just had:-)
17:31:45 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
17:31:45 <RRSAgent> I see no action items