14:56:30 RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc 14:56:30 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/04/17-pbgsc-irc 14:56:39 Zakim has joined #pbgsc 14:57:37 zakim, start meeting 14:57:37 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:57:38 Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee 14:58:48 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2020Apr/0008.html 15:00:10 agenda+ BG discussion of EPUB 3 WG charter and issue #23 15:00:24 Daihei has joined #pbgsc 15:00:30 present+ 15:00:31 agenda+ Other GitHub open issues on the draft EPUB 3 WG charter 15:00:46 agedna+ RS Accessibility bugs - where to file? 15:00:54 agenda+ RS Accessibility bugs - where to file? 15:01:12 s/agedna+ RS Accessibility bugs - where to file?// 15:01:24 present+ 15:01:26 George has joined #pbgsc 15:01:50 present+ 15:01:55 present+ 15:01:58 present+ 15:02:05 zakim list attendees 15:02:10 liisamk has joined #pbgsc 15:02:14 s/zakim list attendees// 15:02:20 zakim, list attendees 15:02:20 As of this point the attendees have been Daihei, dauwhe, George, Ralph, ivan 15:02:27 present+ Wendy 15:02:29 present+ 15:02:30 regrets+ Cristina 15:02:35 present+ 15:02:36 wendyreid has joined #pbgsc 15:02:47 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc 15:02:49 present+ 15:02:52 jeff has joined #pbgsc 15:02:56 present+ 15:03:05 scribe+ dauwhe 15:03:09 present+ 15:03:32 tzviya: apologies for the late agenda 15:03:46 Topic: Summary of PBG meeting 15:04:02 liisamk: there is concern from the Japanese community 15:04:13 ... that they want assurances about backward compatibility 15:04:22 -> https://www.w3.org/2020/04/14-pbg-minutes 14-April BG meeting record 15:04:28 ... and they are worried about requirements for implementations of EPUB features 15:04:39 q+ 15:04:42 ... but there aren't concerns about specific features 15:05:05 garth has joined #pbgsc 15:05:09 -> https://github.com/w3c/epub-3-wg-charter/issues/8 Strengthen compatibility requirements, involve epubcheck #8 15:05:12 present+ Garth 15:05:41 Daihei: we want to secure assurances that throughout rec track compatability will be assured, and maintenance of the eco 15:05:46 ... system 15:05:56 ... we want it confirmed and written 15:06:01 q? 15:06:09 -> https://github.com/w3c/epub-3-wg-charter/issues/23 Keeping backward compatibility and maintenance of EPUB business ecosystem; without any disruptions to be 15:06:11 ... and new features which might cause disruption 15:06:20 ... and so backward compatibility will not be assured 15:06:34 ... and there were concerns expressed about the HTML serialization of HTML5 15:06:46 ... which could affect implementation 15:06:47 ack iv 15:06:49 q+ 15:06:52 q+ 15:07:03 q+ 15:07:07 ivan: I don't remember the exact dates 15:07:17 ... there were a series of issues coming into the charter 15:07:27 ... from Florian, from Makoto, from Toshiake 15:07:37 ... and some of the things you mentioned, were taken up 15:07:48 ... and we had three or four pull requests that were accepted and merged 15:07:55 ... so the charter has been updated 15:08:01 s/Toshiake/Toshiaki/ 15:08:02 ... for HTML5 we had some minor changes 15:08:17 q+ 15:08:26 ... the question came up about ssml or epub:type, things that are bound to the xhtml serialization 15:08:43 ... and we added words to make it clear that no RS can refuse to take XHTML 15:08:50 -> https://w3c.github.io/epub-3-wg-charter/ current draft proposed EPUB 3 WG charter 15:09:01 ... that was settled 15:09:09 ... the thing that becomes more complicated is 15:09:26 ... the standard w3c approach to CR is that there need to be two implementations of each feature 15:09:33 https://github.com/w3c/epub-3-wg-charter/issues/19 15:09:34 ... I'll put the reference to the issue here 15:09:57 ... what happens if there's a feature with only one implementation, therefore it doesn't meet CR exit criteria 15:10:14 ... and they said it should not be removed from the standard because there are documents that use it 15:10:15 q+ to discuss process 15:10:35 ... it is perfectly possible that if a feature doesn't get 2 implementations 15:10:48 ... it could be kept as a non-normative feature because there is no interop 15:10:57 ... but documents could remain conforming 15:11:10 ... this came up again this morning 15:11:19 Avneesh has joined #pbgsc 15:11:23 ... with a new comment in the repo 15:11:32 ... one thing I raised 15:11:43 ... is that this process issue, is not required to be in the charter 15:11:50 ... because it's part of w3c process 15:12:03 ... but we could make it explicit in the charter 15:12:27 ... the charter makes very strong statements about compatibility 15:12:38 ... I'm not sure what else we can do to allieviate the concerns 15:12:40 q? 15:12:43 ack Ralph 15:12:56 Ralph: thanks Daihei for reinforcing the depth of the sensitivity 15:13:08 ... what would help me to udnerstnad the types of sensitivities 15:13:27 ... things like changing version ID caused isssues in the past, so we promised not to do that 15:13:45 ... A high-level concern is that products, that is books, that are currently being shipped 15:13:59 ... publishers don't want anything to happen to flag those existing books as no longer proper 15:14:05 ... they don 15:14:17 ...'t want the business chain to throw out existing inventory 15:14:27 ... or not to be able to sell to a consumer existing inventory 15:14:33 ... how to express that in charter language 15:14:49 ... ivan has expressed technically how we might implement that 15:15:05 ... how we might implement tests for features without interoperability 15:15:07 q+ 15:15:11 q? 15:15:17 q+ 15:15:25 ... is the kind of language that talks about the production chain, is that kind of language something that is needed? 15:15:26 scribe+ 15:15:39 ack da 15:15:46 ... there is a sensitivity to something we haven't yet captured in language 15:16:06 dauwhe: I'm going to ask are there any changes to EPUB that are acceptable? 15:16:10 ... explicitly, new features 15:16:28 ... having some new feature in EPUB, if you wanted a reading system to conform, it might require development 15:16:42 ... are we saying that there can be no change to RSs, platforms, process 15:16:44 q? 15:16:47 ack dauwhe 15:16:49 ... I'm trying to find the boundaries of this discussion 15:17:07 ... My goal is making the tent bigger, all content remains valid but there are new possibilities 15:17:14 ... are we objecting to new possibilities 15:17:17 ack George 15:17:21 tzviya: that's a good question 15:17:28 George: I'm asking the same kind of question 15:17:37 ... if we added html serialization, and still allow xhtml 15:17:50 ... the reading systems that would be able to render HTML could be the two implementations 15:18:00 ... if we allow that, is that OK? books could have html or xhtml? 15:18:11 ack wendyreid 15:18:12 ... and reading systems would support both, or maybe just xhtml 15:18:26 wendyreid: I'm on the same wavelength 15:18:31 q+ 15:18:34 ... I responded to Daihei's issue on github 15:18:43 ... I thought that the charter line was clear enough 15:18:49 ... we intend to be backwards compatible 15:19:04 ... and I thought we explained in the call we want to make the tent bigger 15:19:20 ... we want content creators to produce better epubs by using current web tech 15:19:29 ... but all books will be valid 15:19:40 ... no one wants to invalidate the entirety of the catalog 15:19:52 ... what language needs to be changed? that's the feedback we're looking for 15:20:04 ack jeff 15:20:16 jeff: I'm hearing a lot of discussion about the tech of backward compat and the charter language 15:20:24 ... we've made clear we're demanding backward compat 15:20:32 ... but I'm still hearing concerns 15:20:42 ... but maybe the answer is not in tuning language in charter 15:20:56 q+ 15:20:59 ... but having a set of conversations to give people more confidence in the process 15:21:11 ... the w3c process is new and scary :) 15:21:28 ... in w3c the best way to get what you want is not by negotiating charter language but by participation 15:21:40 ... encouraging greater participation would be good 15:22:02 ... there would be no break in compat wihtout consensus, and no consenus if the people are participating 15:22:25 ... so we need more conversation, maybe a third chair from Japan 15:22:32 ack tz 15:22:32 tzviya, you wanted to discuss process 15:22:34 tzviya: thanks jeff 15:22:41 ... I agree with what Jeff said 15:22:51 ... I think there's been misunderstandings about the process 15:22:58 ... I think the charter language is clear 15:23:08 ... maybe the next BG should go over the process 15:23:24 ... we're not talking about EPUBCheck, and the validation process is not in scope for this group 15:24:05 ... we decide what we mean by compatibility 15:24:18 ... we can decide how this works 15:24:20 q? 15:24:21 q? 15:24:34 garth: I have such a long list of +1 15:25:13 ... I don't agree that if a feature is not supported by any reading system it should be kept 15:25:25 ... but we don't want to invalidate any content 15:25:42 ... but if a feature exists in an EPUB, there was some implementation that created that feature 15:25:56 ... although that's a legalistic argument :) 15:25:59 q? 15:26:08 ... but I agree with jeff that actual engagement will be more useful 15:26:14 ack lii 15:26:34 liisamk: it's not the people who are unaware of w3c process, it's Makoto who has raised this the most 15:26:51 ... to dave's point on new features, I think new features are acceptable 15:27:16 ... a line of assurance that the business chains, the clarity that all those things are possible implementations 15:27:22 ... one line of those things would help 15:27:25 ivan: what is that line? 15:27:39 ... we have tried very hard to get the charter text to address these concerns 15:27:54 ... we need something like "this line is wrong, change it to X" 15:28:15 ack av 15:28:15 liisamk: we can talk about the process in the next BG call, but that doesn't. help us today 15:28:40 q+ 15:28:46 Avneesh: It's a trust issue. Some people said they are not part of the WG. 15:29:03 ... there is not enough participation in the WG from them, so it can slips out of their hands. 15:29:12 I have been on q+ and waiting 15:29:21 +1 to Avneesh 15:29:29 ... we could have invited experts from Japan, if people are not members 15:29:39 ... we also said that CG will be point of innovation 15:29:53 ... why not have the incubation in the CG, even if we know it won't break anything 15:30:16 ... let the CG build confidence before moving something to the WG 15:30:23 ... re: epubcheck 15:30:33 ... EPUBCheck should not be the reference point for compat 15:30:46 ... we have relaxed EPUBcheck things so we don't break the long tail of old content 15:30:50 q? 15:30:53 +1 to Avneesh 15:30:58 ack Ralph 15:30:58 Ralph, you wanted to comment on "one line" 15:31:00 Ralph: I hear ivan's frustration 15:31:08 ... that we need precise language 15:31:16 ... I would be willing to sit with Liisa and Daihei 15:31:26 ... I know that Florian who knows process well 15:31:27 q+ to discuss ie for wg 15:31:39 ... Florian offerered 2 very long sentences 15:32:04 ... if it's a question of trust, then being involved in the group is the way to be confident about that trust 15:32:24 ... if we can make the charter address that more explicitly, it's worth the effort 15:32:37 ... if liisamk and Daihei are willing, I can take an action 15:32:37 ack we 15:32:41 wendyreid: I agree with this 15:32:52 ... ??? brought up the issue of not being able to join the WG 15:32:58 +1 to help with the "sentence" 15:33:17 q+ 15:33:19 ... we should encourage people to become w3c members to participate in the WG 15:33:31 ... it's clear they want to participate. We need them there. 15:33:51 ... even with the minutes and meeting summaries, it's hard to communicate all the information in a way that's understandable to everyone all the time 15:34:00 q? 15:34:05 ... some japanese publishers are full members, and we should encourage them to join 15:34:23 ... encourage the Business members to participate as full members, and to join the CG 15:34:50 ... I like the idea of a Japanese co-chair, but we need someone who has the technical skills and wants to chair 15:35:06 Adaret: coo 15:35:14 q? 15:35:15 q? 15:35:20 tzviya: I agree with Wendy 15:35:30 q+ Daihei 15:35:36 ... there are probably more Japanese publishers who are full members than US publishers 15:35:43 [I have had experience with chairs whose expertise is in group facilitation rather than the technical details of the deliverable. Those were very successful] 15:35:45 ... we would love to have their technical people on the WG 15:35:47 ack tzviya 15:35:47 tzviya, you wanted to discuss ie for wg 15:35:55 ... it's about people being able to participate 15:36:07 ... if Daihei or FLorian have suggestions, we would love to hear from them 15:36:22 q? 15:36:28 ack li 15:36:43 liisamk: Wendy, it's hard in BG to encourage people to become full members 15:36:55 ... joining the W3C is not easy financially 15:37:00 ... especially right now 15:37:17 ... we talked to Christina the other day. Publishing is down to nothing there. 15:37:37 ... we don't want to discourage existing members, but we can't push people to do more. It's not a reasonable ask right now. 15:37:38 ack da 15:37:50 Daihei: agree with liisamk 15:38:00 ... we would like to have the participation 15:38:05 aderet: squeak 15:38:20 present+ aderet 15:38:20 Daihei: of japanese members, but there is a financial issues 15:38:36 ... I will be sure to discuss with next week all the Japanese w3c members 15:38:46 ... to appoint someone as a co-chair, and I will get back 15:38:55 ... I know that participation from japan is important 15:39:10 ... Kodansha, Shueisha, MediaDO, etc 15:39:19 q+ 15:39:28 ... and other companies considering becoming full member 15:39:43 ... In terms of the language 15:39:50 ... the business chain or ecosystem 15:39:58 ... that is what we wanted in 15:40:07 ... but if that's not technically good enough to be in the charter 15:40:17 ... I will check with the technical people for the language 15:40:28 ... I don't think that Japan is the only one who wants backward compatiblility 15:40:42 ... and existing files and products and inventory to be used in the future 15:40:57 ... last year, there was an epubcheck error about the ordering of content in TOC 15:41:09 +1 to Daihei- I can attest that lots of NA and European publishers want backwards compatibility 15:41:16 ... people were blaming me, as co-chair of PBG, that such an error message came up 15:41:29 ... because they would have to spend millions of dollars to fix the issue 15:41:35 q+ 15:41:49 ... and that is similar to the other countries 15:42:11 ... no one said no to new features. We do want to improve epub! 15:42:22 ... as long as we don't break anything 15:42:31 ... I will have someone from Japan to participate in WG 15:42:43 ... even outside of WG we should have democratic process 15:42:47 ... that's what we need 15:43:10 jeff: several people have commented about searching for a co-chair from Japan who has technical depth 15:43:19 ... I would suggest that we relax that requirement 15:43:21 q+ 15:43:39 ... with multiple chairs, each of them have their own skills and bring different things to the group 15:43:58 ... if we had a third person in faciiliating the input from Japan's technical community 15:44:10 ... that could be perfectly fine co-chair 15:44:43 Ralph: I've had experience as team contact of exactly jeff's experience 15:44:55 ... with someone who was skilled in facilitating the group 15:45:21 q+ 15:45:26 +1 to focus on participation firs 15:45:28 tzviya: we need to focus on people who can participate, and we can think about chairing later 15:45:33 s/jeff's experience/the scenario Jeff suggests 15:45:33 George: I'm concerned about two things 15:45:44 ... one is... what would disrupt the japanese publishing industry 15:46:01 ... if new titles came into the market that were html and had alternative HTML nav doc 15:46:07 q+ 15:46:11 ... and publications start entering the market 15:46:25 ... then existing reading systems would have to support the new content 15:46:33 ... would this disrupt the ecosystem? 15:46:45 ... I see that as natural evolution and development of standards 15:46:53 ... but would it anger people? 15:47:04 ... two: greater communication between the CG and the WG is important 15:47:14 q- 15:47:15 q+ 15:47:30 Daihei: in terms of candidate for co-chair 15:47:38 ... I have a couple people in mind 15:47:46 ... but they might not work for w3c members 15:48:00 ... so I would ask for consideration as invited expert 15:48:07 ... to be able to join the WG 15:48:14 q- 15:48:36 ... to answer george's quesation 15:48:53 ... I have a new feature but will not break compatiblity 15:49:03 ... if the feature might expand business 15:49:13 ... and work as a benefit to the RS provider 15:49:25 ... so it wouldn't be seen as a negative 15:49:27 q- later 15:49:38 Ralph, you wanted to ask about reading systems 15:49:39 ... improvement of epub will be welcomed by Japan and everywhere else 15:49:42 Ralph: thanks daihei 15:49:56 q+ 15:50:23 ... do existing reading systems have to support EPUB 3.X content? That's a plausible tech constraint. 15:50:34 ... it may be hard for the WG to weigh that kind of constraint. 15:50:59 ... how will existing reading systems behave wrt an EPUB 3.X doc? 15:51:17 q? 15:51:27 ivan: two things 15:51:39 ... one: to what george said, the way the charter reads today 15:52:07 ... on new features like HTML, there is a sentence which said the effects of this feature must be carefully considered.,.. .... .... 15:52:33 ... that makes it clear there's no obligation to add html, just as there are no obligation around other possible new features 15:52:43 ... it's great we got these comments from Japan 15:52:54 ... but we didn't get any comments from anywhere else in the world 15:52:55 +1 15:53:14 q+ 15:53:28 ... I feel uncomfortable with the charter that we have no comments from Europe. N America, Africa, China, Antartica, etc 15:53:38 Daihei: about epub reading systems and new features... 15:53:58 ... that is my opinion, I will come back to you after confirming with japan 15:54:11 ... the language for the world for the business chain, I will come back to you 15:54:19 ... and the co-chair candidate, I will come back to you 15:54:36 liisamk: PBG can put out an email to comment on the charter 15:54:58 zakim, next item 15:54:58 agendum 2. "Other GitHub open issues on the draft EPUB 3 WG charter" taken up [from Ralph] 15:55:04 -> https://github.com/w3c/epub-3-wg-charter/issues/2 #2 15:55:07 EPUB 3 community is in CG, so it is also good to remind PCG/EEPUB3CG 15:55:09 Ralph: issue #2, IDPF registries 15:55:23 ... it seems obvious to me that the w3c registries should be part of the new WG 15:55:31 ... is there a reason not to say that 15:55:36 q+ 15:55:56 +1 15:55:57 dauwhe: W3C should definitely take responsibility for the registries 15:56:08 ... as many of them as possible become part of the specs 15:56:27 zakim, next item 15:56:27 agendum 3. "RS Accessibility bugs - where to file?" taken up [from Ralph] 15:56:30 Ralph: ivan, you can add that 15:56:48 liisamk: I talked to my team about the PBG repo for RS bugs. 15:56:55 ... should we include a11y bugs? 15:56:58 q+ 15:57:08 q+ 15:57:21 dauwhe: I think we should absolutely include them 15:57:23 ... they are bugs 15:57:29 ... we can use labels to sort and triage 15:57:31 q+ 15:57:35 ... having them all in one place is useful 15:57:45 ... and people don't have to judge where their problem lives 15:58:28 tzviya: if it's really about the book or the system or the AT, there is an ARIA WG task force, and they are working with JAWS etc on board 15:58:53 liisamk: there's a bug in ibooks if alt text is embedded in figure it's not available 15:58:58 George: I agree with dave 15:59:19 ... separate but equal is inherently unequal 15:59:22 +1 15:59:27 ... triage is important 15:59:36 ... I filed a bug with JAWS on that issue 15:59:41 Ralph: there is consensus :) 15:59:47 adaret: waves 15:59:54 present+ Adaret 16:00:09 Ralph: thanks everyone, and we'll do better on timely agendas 16:00:37 zakim, end meeting 16:00:37 As of this point the attendees have been Daihei, dauwhe, George, Ralph, ivan, Wendy, liisamk, tzviya, wendyreid, Bill_Kasdorf, jeff, Garth, aderet, Adaret 16:00:40 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:00:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/17-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim 16:00:42 I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:00:46 Zakim has left #pbgsc 16:02:09 rrsagent, bye 16:02:09 I see no action items