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15:33:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:33:06 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
15:33:26 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2020-03-31: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Mar/0016.html
15:33:27 <ivan> Chair: liisa
15:33:27 <ivan> Date: 2020-03-31
15:33:27 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Mar/0016.html
15:33:27 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
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15:59:39 <George> present+
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16:01:37 <ivan> present+
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16:02:35 <Ralph> present+
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16:02:46 <Ralph> present+
16:03:06 <Ralph> scribe+
16:03:53 <Ralph> present+ George
16:03:59 <Ralph> present+ Daihei
16:04:05 <Avneesh> present+
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16:04:09 <Ralph> present+ BillK
16:04:12 <Karen> present+ Karen
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16:04:19 <Ralph> present+ Cristina
16:05:05 <julieblair> present+
16:05:09 <jeff_> present+
16:05:21 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Mar/0016.html
16:05:33 <Ralph> Liisa: welcome to James Tauber, new BG Member
16:05:40 <Ralph> topic: EPUBcheck development and funding
16:05:47 <Ralph> Luck: we're not far from our fundraising goal
16:06:12 <Ralph> ... from the last pages I've seen we're about 12k $ from the goal
16:06:16 <Ralph> s/pages/pledges
16:06:32 <Ralph> ... when all the payments are received we'll still be short $ 12k
16:06:50 <rkwright> rkwright has joined #pbg
16:06:58 <Ralph> ... I proposed that the BG or SC communicate thanks to all the donors
16:07:08 <ivan> q+
16:07:24 <Ralph> ... and use the page on the web site to show the logos of all the companies who contributed
16:07:40 <Ralph> ... we still lack 12k euros
16:07:47 <Ralph> Daihei: Euros or USD?
16:07:49 <Ralph> Luc: USD
16:07:55 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:08:09 <Ralph> Ivan: until today you maintained that page on the web site
16:08:16 <Ralph> ... who will take that on?
16:08:26 <Ralph> Luc: Dave Cramer is now Hachette's AC Rep
16:08:37 <Ralph> ... I agreed to continue to do this job if there are no technical issues
16:08:39 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbg
16:08:40 <Ralph> Ivan: no technical issues
16:09:00 <Ralph> Luc: I will not be a Hachette employee
16:09:06 <Ralph> ... I will have my own consultancy
16:09:18 <Ralph> Ivan: as long as you don't change your GitHub ID, it will work
16:10:04 <Ralph> Luc: on EPUBcheck development, the schedule is a bit delayed
16:10:22 <Ralph> ... for several reasons including the pandemic
16:10:33 <Ralph> ... we're working with Avneesh and Romain to revise the schedule
16:10:43 <Ralph> ... probably until end of this year
16:10:51 <Ralph> ... the progress is slow but is going on
16:11:02 <Ralph> ... the idea is to have the whole client finished by end of the year
16:11:28 <Ralph> ... with Avneesh, Romain, and Tzviya we're preparing a new schedule to propose to the Steering Committe
16:11:44 <Ralph> ... it is the SC's decision to pay Daisy Consortium when each phase is complete
16:11:51 <wolfgang> s/Committe/Committee/
16:11:56 <Ralph> ... Daisy will prepare reports and Avneesh will present them to the SC
16:12:20 <Ralph> ... it is not necessary for me to be involved in that
16:12:27 <Ralph> topic: Digital Publishing Survey
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16:12:38 <laudrain> present+
16:12:46 <Ralph> Liisa: the SC decided to close the survey; it has been open for 2 months
16:12:52 <Ralph> ... 271 responses
16:12:59 <Ralph> ... we're working on collating the material
16:13:15 <Ralph> ... I am working on updating a clean version of the raw results to share with the BG later this week
16:13:54 <Ralph> Wendy: Mateus and I are almost done with our final assembly; we're working on a slide deck of all the results
16:14:09 <Ralph> ... and a blog post with an overview of what the results mean and how we're going to use them
16:14:19 <Ralph> ... I'll circulate that for comment before posting
16:14:33 <Ralph> ... Mateus is working on the open-ended questions; that is more work
16:14:38 <Karen> q+
16:14:55 <Ralph> Karen: what's the geographic distribution?
16:15:08 <Ralph> Liisa: we did not ask location questions
16:15:25 <Ralph> ... we did ask if people wanted to stay in touch and got some email addresses
16:15:26 <dauwhe> q+
16:15:31 <liisamk> ack Karen
16:15:38 <Ralph> ... the number who said they wanted to stay in touch is not indicative of their location
16:15:59 <laudrain> q+
16:16:01 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
16:16:03 <Ralph> ... we know some of the responses were from Japan, based on the free text
16:16:15 <liisamk> ack laudrain
16:16:18 <Ralph> Dave: we might be able to use the IP address to infer location
16:16:23 <Ralph> Ivan: not if people used VPNs
16:16:58 <Ralph> Luc: the geographic question is interesting.  The survey was distributed all over Europe but got to some places later than others
16:17:02 <Daihei> q+
16:17:16 <Ralph> ... I don't know if some parts of the world maybe didn't get it
16:17:41 <Ralph> Liisa: I'm omitting repetitive and overly-snarky responses but kept anything that indicated location
16:17:50 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:17:51 <Ralph> ... such as "doesn't work in Russia"
16:18:09 <Ralph> Daihei: in Japan, I distributed through several industry organizations
16:18:19 <Ralph> ... 2000 publishers in Japan do digital publications
16:18:27 <Ralph> ... and I'd say 100% of them use EPUB
16:18:35 <Ralph> ... the survey was about "interest"
16:18:49 <Ralph> ... so it was disappointing to only get 10 responses from Japan
16:19:02 <Ralph> ... this suggests the language barrier was quite large
16:19:26 <Ralph> ... we should make more effort in the future to make it easier for people to come in to help us
16:19:26 <jeff_> q+
16:19:46 <Ralph> Jeff: this survey is maybe a once-in-a-decade opportunity
16:19:58 <wendyreid> q+
16:20:01 <Ralph> ... given Daihei's remarks, should we consider translating and re-opening it?
16:20:03 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:20:07 <liisamk> ack wendy
16:20:16 <Ralph> ... .to get more representative inputs from Japan
16:20:38 <Ralph> Wendy: after spending many, many hours with the results I've observed that the survey is too long and too broad
16:20:49 <Ralph> ... if we want to target groups it's worth segmenting it out
16:20:54 <ivan> present+ cristina
16:21:01 <Ralph> ... publisher-centric and EPUB-centric questions for the Japanese publishers
16:21:20 <Ralph> ... the survey was designed to reach everybody across the spectrum
16:21:24 <Daihei> q+
16:21:27 <jeff_> +1
16:21:29 <Ralph> ... we can modify it to target specific groups
16:21:40 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:21:41 <Ralph> ... and not ask everyone to answer 86 questions
16:21:44 <Ralph> Daihei: good idea
16:22:11 <Ralph> ... in addition to sending the entire survey to more aggressively-involved members
16:22:11 <Karen> +1 subset of relevant questions by target segment
16:22:29 <Ralph> ... I sent specific sections to publishers and to EPUB developers
16:22:41 <Ralph> ... togther with Yoshii-san we made such an effort
16:22:52 <Ralph> ... I didn't have time to interview each one
16:23:04 <ivan> present+ tzviya
16:23:05 <Ralph> ... next time we should find a way to get more involvement
16:23:18 <Ralph> Liisa: I propose we think about what we've learned
16:23:32 <Ralph> ... as we get more material to share, re-engage on who's willing to discuss
16:23:42 <jeff_> q+
16:23:50 <Ralph> ... we haven't yet talked about how we'll follow-up with those who said they're interested in followup
16:23:51 <wolfgang> s/togther/together/
16:23:52 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:24:14 <Ralph> Jeff: I agree with Wendy that we should lead with a more tapered survey
16:24:28 <Ralph> ... perhaps in the BG Asia/Pacific call the same question can be raised and get ideas
16:24:36 <Ralph> ... perhaps involve Naomi and get ideas about translating
16:24:45 <Ralph> ... this opportunity doesn't come along very often
16:24:46 <liisamk> q+
16:24:50 <Daihei> q+
16:24:54 <Ralph> ... we shouldn't just drop it
16:25:02 <Daihei> +1 to Jeff
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16:25:22 <Ralph> Liisa: we stopped the survey but we all agreed we would follow up once we have results in sharable form and talk with the community
16:25:24 <liisamk> ack liisa
16:25:25 <Ralph> ... perhaps do some webinars
16:25:28 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:25:38 <Ralph> Daihei: I totally agree with Liisa
16:25:49 <Ralph> ... the first phase of the survey has just closed
16:26:10 <Cristina> Present+
16:26:14 <Ralph> ... if we can gather any further responses from Japan, Taiwan, or others, I hope that can be added to the survey results
16:26:37 <Ralph> ... it's a great list of questions and pertains the the core of EPUB development
16:26:49 <Ralph> .... we should use these results to go back and do it
16:27:05 <Ralph> ... I agree with the idea of doing webinars based on the questionnaire
16:27:23 <Ralph> topic: Blog post from the SC F2F
16:27:43 <Ralph> Liisa: the post has been out for a bit; have people heard much response?  any questions about how we're moving forward?
16:28:01 <George> q+
16:28:06 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/blog/2020/03/listen-to-the-people-the-future-of-epub-and-new-directions-for-publishing-w3c/ listen to the people
16:28:11 <liisamk> ack George
16:28:15 <Ralph> Liisa: should we be promoting it more?
16:28:24 <Ralph> George: I've been updating people in a variety of settings
16:28:30 <Ralph> ... everybody has been really good with it
16:28:32 <dauwhe> q+
16:28:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:28:36 <Ralph> ... nobody questioned the initiative
16:28:45 <Ralph> ... I did get some questions about where to join the CG
16:28:59 <Ralph> ... and should they join the Publishing CG or the EPUB 3 CG
16:29:07 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
16:29:10 <Ralph> ... I've been recommending that they join the EPUB 3 CG
16:29:20 <Ralph> Dave: I remind us not to expect too much reaction
16:29:28 <Daihei> q+
16:29:31 <Ralph> ... literally everyone in the world is worried about other things right now
16:29:41 <Ralph> ... the timing is utterly horrible and that's not at all our fault
16:29:51 <Ralph> ... we need to be very patient about all of this
16:30:00 <liisamk> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:30:03 <Ralph> ... do the best we can, but the world is not particularly interested in what we're saying at the moment
16:30:08 <Ralph> BillK: +1
16:30:15 <Ralph> ... I expected some response from my list
16:30:24 <Ralph> ... got one comment before covid-19
16:30:26 <George> q+
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16:30:41 <Ralph> ... "what's going to happen to bookstores" has now swamped the discussion
16:30:44 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:31:12 <Ralph> Daihei: last week I got dozens of responses from Japanese members, both PBG members and APL members
16:31:29 <Ralph> ... mixed responses; some positive and some concern about EPUB moving to Rec Track
16:31:42 <Ralph> ... questions about the organization of Publishing@W3C
16:32:00 <Ralph> ... I am going to encourage them to come to me or direct to GitHub to comment
16:32:19 <Ralph> .... I also gave a summary of the blog
16:32:38 <Ralph> ... this week I will put all the responses into GitHub on the EPUB 3 WG charter
16:32:39 <liisamk> ack George
16:33:02 <Ralph> George: I monitor education lists and the number of publishers and vendors that have been making books available to students at home is tremendous
16:33:20 <Ralph> ... tomorrow we're doing a webinar on this
16:33:35 <Ralph> ... it's free and we're reaching the Zoom maximum of 500 attendees
16:33:53 <Ralph> ... we're looking at increasing the number of attendees in our license
16:34:13 <Ralph> Liisa: nice segue to the EPUB 3 WG charter
16:34:19 <Ralph> topic: EPUB 3 WG charter
16:34:25 <ivan> -> https://w3c.github.io/epub-3-wg-charter/ EPUB 3 WG charter proposal
16:34:29 <Ralph> Liisa: please read and comment on the charter
16:34:32 <ivan> q+
16:34:33 <Ralph> ... and get others to do so
16:34:37 <Daihei> @George - where can I find the webinar info online?
16:34:44 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:34:54 <Ralph> Ivan: it's obviously the same situtation that Dave described
16:35:18 <Ralph> ... when we leave a month for comments, at this moment I feel uncomfortable going to the AC in a few weeks
16:35:33 <Ralph> ... without more feedback from the community
16:36:12 <Ralph> ... if you are an AC Rep or have connections to AC Reps, it is useful to express your view even if you have no changes to propose
16:36:21 <david_stroup_> Need to drop. I will provide positive feedback on charter and blog this week.
16:36:37 <Ralph> ... comments should not only be those who want to criticize
16:37:09 <Ralph> topic: PBG Role Going Forward for Publishing@W3C
16:37:21 <Ralph> Liisa: this discussion started in the Asia call a few weeks ago
16:37:33 <Ralph> ... how we best serve the publishing community
16:37:47 <Ralph> ... how we get ideas from the new incubation Publishing CG
16:37:57 <Ralph> ... consider inviting guest speakers at some calls
16:38:09 <Ralph> ... we've asked Laurent join us next month
16:38:30 <Ralph> Cristina: we've asked Laurent to present on what they're doing on the reading system
16:38:45 <Ralph> .... we should discuss how much time we allocate for guests to present
16:38:49 <Ralph> ... do we expect slides?
16:39:05 <Ralph> ... how do we organize our hour time?
16:39:09 <liisamk> q+
16:39:37 <Ralph> ... I suggest that we give them 15 minutes to present, plus 15 minutes for Q&A, leaving us 30 minutes for other discussion
16:39:46 <Ralph> Liisa: +1 to that time allocation
16:39:58 <Ralph> ... it will be good to see how the first one goes and adjust from there
16:40:25 <Ralph> Cristina: suggestions for other speakers welcome so we can schedule a program in advance
16:40:33 <Ralph> ... can be people or topics
16:40:43 <Ralph> ... prepare a list of topics we'd like to discuss
16:40:56 <Daihei> q+
16:40:59 <Ralph> ... we can also invite publishers who are not W3C Members
16:41:01 <Ralph> <ralph> +1
16:41:14 <Karen> +1
16:41:18 <wolfgang> +1
16:41:20 <liisamk> ack liisamk
16:41:23 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:41:54 <Ralph> Daihei: how frequently might we schedule speakers?  the intention is to open a slot for guests from outside PBG
16:42:10 <jeff_> q+
16:42:13 <Ralph> ... we can occasionally invite CG and WG respresentatives to share what they are doing
16:42:32 <Ralph> ... and for the CG and WG to hear directly from BG members
16:42:43 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:42:44 <Ralph> ... this direct connection could be good
16:42:45 <wolfgang> s/respresentatives/representatives/
16:42:46 <Cristina> Q+
16:42:52 <Ralph> Jeff: another idea:
16:43:19 <Ralph> ... a lot has been said in the current covid crisis about libraries being closed and the ease of downloading ebooks
16:43:31 <Daihei> +1 to Jeff
16:43:32 <Ralph> ... is there anything that PBG might say in this time?
16:43:45 <liisamk> ack Cristina
16:43:58 <Ralph> Liisa: interesting to mention but not sure what we could say as a community that isn't representative of our organizations
16:44:03 <jeff_> q+ to answer Liisa's question
16:44:18 <Daihei> +1 to Cristina
16:44:25 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:44:25 <Zakim> jeff_, you wanted to answer Liisa's question
16:44:27 <Ralph> Cristina: we can ask permission to record the guest speakers so the two meeting times can benefit
16:44:36 <Daihei> q+
16:44:43 <Ralph> Jeff: good question from Liisa on what the BG might be able to say
16:45:07 <Ralph> ... IDPF was also partly a trade group in addition to being a standards organization
16:45:27 <Ralph> ... when we combined we said that spec work would move to Rec Track, incubation would move to CG
16:45:37 <Ralph> ... and the trade organization discussion would happen in the BG
16:45:49 <Ralph> ... is there any discussion that could or should be made?
16:46:04 <Ralph> ... e.g. "in this time, here's what you should know about ebooks"
16:46:30 <Ralph> ... people are also working on jigsaw puzzles; there was an article in the New York Times about people doing puzzles
16:46:33 <Karen> q+
16:46:37 <dauwhe> q+
16:46:41 <Ralph> ... what can or should we do?
16:46:54 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:46:58 <jeff_> [/me was not trying to communicate that anyone should profit.]
16:46:59 <Ralph> Liisa: [notes Tzviya's comments on the importance of not appearing to profit from the crisis]
16:47:27 <Ralph> Daihei: agree not to be exploitive but telling people that here's a way to use the time
16:47:45 <Ralph> ... we are seeing a great increase of digital library lending and ebook purchases in Japan
16:48:23 <Ralph> ... I hope there is an appropriate way for PBG to encourage people who don't know about how to enjoy digital book reading to let them know
16:48:45 <liisamk> ack Karen
16:48:46 <Ralph> ... but I agree that we should not give any image or feeling of taking advantage of the crisis
16:49:08 <Ralph> Karen: to George, do you have a sense of who is subscribing to your webinar/
16:49:25 <Ralph> ... 500 participants on what sounds like a consumer webinar is very interesting
16:49:36 <Ralph> George: all of these conferences were canceled
16:50:09 <Ralph> ... I sent to the CG and BG an email indicating the conference communities we're targeting
16:50:28 <Ralph> ... the first webinar is focused on higher ed and is getting high response from there
16:50:35 <Ralph> .... education is a big arena that we're touching on
16:50:56 <Ralph> Karen: thanks; there could be more stories from this group; they're human-interest stories
16:51:03 <Ralph> ... perhaps we could have a slack channel too
16:51:30 <Ralph> ... personal story: I suggested to a family member who couldn't get to the library anymore to consider reading on an e-reader
16:51:47 <Ralph> ... that was received positively
16:52:14 <Ralph> George: the move to home-schooling now means lots of materials are being created by the teachers
16:52:19 <dauwhe> q-
16:52:26 <Ralph> ... if we can nurture that and focus it to epub, that would be great
16:52:37 <Ralph> Karen: +1; find the right outlets without being commercial
16:52:55 <Ralph> George: Departments of Ed around the globe are trying to help their schools
16:53:01 <Ralph> ... we have a lot of things in place that can help
16:53:12 <Ralph> ... getting this out to the communities with so much going on is hard
16:53:20 <Ralph> ... and we have to do it quickly
16:54:00 <Ralph> Liisa: it's not necessarily about commercialism for individual companies but sensitivity over the business models coming from this
16:54:17 <Ralph> ... sensitivity towards the small bookstores who are losing staff and access; keeping them a-float
16:54:27 <Ralph> ... promoting e-books is in a way dismissive of that reality