16:13:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbg
16:13:42 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/03/03-pbg-irc
16:13:45 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:13:45 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
16:14:08 <ivan> Chair: liisa
16:14:08 <ivan> Date: 2020-03-03
16:14:08 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Mar/0000.html
16:14:10 <ivan> /topic Meeting Agenda 2020-03-03: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Mar/0000.html
16:14:12 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
16:14:14 <ivan> Regrets+ jeff, garth
16:14:24 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2020-03-03: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Mar/0000.html
16:23:16 <wolfgang> wolfgang has joined #pbg
16:42:51 <Cristina> Cristina has joined #pbg
16:50:32 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #pbg
16:58:43 <Ralph> present+
17:00:00 <dauwhe> present+
17:00:36 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbg
17:00:36 <liisamk> present+
17:00:39 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #pbg
17:00:43 <tzviya> present+
17:00:44 <Cristina> present+
17:00:50 <laudrain> present+
17:00:52 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbg
17:02:01 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
17:02:11 <ivan> present+
17:02:16 <George> George has joined #pbg
17:02:22 <wendyreid> present+
17:02:34 <George> present+
17:04:48 <Ralph> present+ Karen
17:05:06 <Ralph> present+ Daihei
17:05:35 <JulieBlair> JulieBlair has joined #pbg
17:05:49 <Ralph> present+ Julie
17:06:04 <Ralph> present+ BillK
17:06:04 <JulieBlair> present+
17:06:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbg
17:06:47 <Ralph> scribe+
17:06:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
17:07:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> I need to leave at 12:30 for another meeting.
17:07:03 <dauwhe> scribe+ dauwhe
17:07:16 <dauwhe> liisamk: let's get started
17:07:24 <dauwhe> Topic: new chair
17:07:34 <dauwhe> Cristina: I think you all know me :)
17:07:50 <dauwhe> ... I'm very happy to be here; secretary general of ??? but I also work for ???
17:08:02 <dauwhe> ... thanks for having me as a chair!
17:08:07 <Ralph> s/???/Fondazione LIA
17:08:08 <dauwhe> Ralph: Welcome!
17:08:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/???/LIA
17:08:14 <dauwhe> Daihei: congrats!
17:08:26 <dauwhe> liisamk: as we are headed into the new era
17:08:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/???/Italian Publishers Association
17:08:32 <dauwhe> Topic: Survey
17:08:38 <dauwhe> liisamk: sent out three weeks ago
17:08:40 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-publishing-survey/2020Feb/0006.html Survey results 28 February 2020
17:08:49 <dauwhe> ... I don't know what feedback you've heard
17:09:02 <Daihei> q+
17:09:11 <dauwhe> wendyreid: 240 responses as of last friday
17:09:37 <dauwhe> Daihei: in Japan, one of the industry orgs replied, and they have two responses?
17:09:53 <dauwhe> ... I'm supposed to hear from another organization soon
17:10:13 <dauwhe> liisamk: at a high level, we got a lot of feedback on what features people want in epub
17:10:18 <dauwhe> ... there's still work to be done on epub
17:10:27 <dauwhe> ... loots of good info on where people are finding things
17:10:35 <dauwhe> ... and that there is misinformation out there
17:10:47 <wolfgang> s/loots/lots/
17:10:54 <dauwhe> ... there was a feeling that there's work to be done on epub *and* on education/outreach
17:11:13 <dauwhe> ... we have lots of results
17:11:26 <tzviya> q+
17:11:29 <dauwhe> ... how do people want to see the data? What are your expectations on how it's shared and used
17:11:37 <wendyreid> ack Daihei
17:11:39 <liisamk> ack Daihei
17:11:43 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:11:50 <dauwhe> tzviya: when we discussed in a smaller group, you did a summary with key highlights; that was helpful
17:12:05 <dauwhe> ... and for the non-essay question, seeing the bar charts was useful
17:12:11 <dauwhe> ... or putting in statistical format
17:12:16 <wendyreid> q+
17:12:23 <dauwhe> ... just seeing the spreadsheet is overwhelming
17:12:27 <liisamk> ack wendyreid
17:12:34 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I have been working with mateus on segmenting the data
17:12:59 <dauwhe> ... we've been grouping it relationally
17:13:09 <dauwhe> ... all the a11y Q's together, RS vs publisher, etc
17:13:17 <dauwhe> ... and EPUB today vs EPUB tomorrow
17:13:31 <dauwhe> ... what are people doing now vs what they're asking for that we can't do now
17:13:43 <dauwhe> ... and what needs to be communicated better
17:14:10 <liisamk> ack karen
17:14:13 <dauwhe> Karen: it's a great Q
17:14:20 <dauwhe> ... having done market research before
17:14:26 <dauwhe> ... I"m a fan of full transparency
17:14:55 <dauwhe> ... it's important the data is stored somewhere in case someone wants to do a deep dive
17:14:57 <liisamk> q+
17:15:04 <dauwhe> ... I'm glad Wendy and Mateus are working on it
17:15:31 <dauwhe> liisamk: I compiled all the raw data into the report; we can share taht
17:15:38 <dauwhe> ... I stack-ranked the bar charts
17:15:47 <tzviya> q+ to ask about PII
17:15:48 <wolfgang> s/taht/that/
17:15:52 <dauwhe> ... didn't put in percentages, but that might be helpful
17:16:07 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:16:07 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask about PII
17:16:21 <dauwhe> tzviya: we do need to strip out some personal info in that doc
17:16:30 <dauwhe> karen: is it anonymous?
17:16:34 <dauwhe> tzviya: not yet
17:16:52 <dauwhe> wendyreid: there are a couple fields that could be identified--IP address and email addresses
17:17:14 <dauwhe> liisamk: I'll go check but I don't think I had personal info?
17:17:28 <wolfgang> s/couple fields/couple of fields/
17:17:32 <George> Zakim: q+
17:17:39 <dauwhe> liisamk: we have a direction
17:17:45 <liisamk> ack George
17:17:56 <dauwhe> George: there are some things that concern me in the raw data, people saying things that aren't true
17:18:04 <dauwhe> ... do we filter those things out?
17:18:12 <dauwhe> ... a lot of personal opinions stated as fact
17:18:28 <Ralph> [a teaching opportunity! ]
17:18:31 <dauwhe> ... if we have any conclusions about what our takeaways are from this
17:18:39 <dauwhe> ... I do think this points us in certain directions
17:18:48 <dauwhe> ... these are important conclusions
17:18:53 <dauwhe> liisamk: good point, George
17:19:05 <dauwhe> ... we probably need to share what we think the key takeaways are
17:19:29 <dauwhe> ... there are a number of people who self-identified as being interested in further conversations
17:19:33 <dauwhe> ... so the BG should reach out
17:19:38 <dauwhe> ... how might we do that?
17:20:00 <dauwhe> Karen: can you repeat?
17:20:04 <Cristina> q+
17:20:15 <dauwhe> liisamk: 30 people said they'd be willing to have further conversations, and provided email
17:20:23 <dauwhe> ... we need to enable those conversations?
17:20:28 <tzviya> q+
17:20:32 <dauwhe> ... do we do interviews? workshops?
17:20:48 <dauwhe> ... how do we let those people express themselves?
17:20:50 <liisamk> ack liisamk
17:20:53 <liisamk> ack Cristina
17:21:08 <dauwhe> Cristina: are these people we already know, or are they new people?
17:21:17 <dauwhe> ... we would treat those differently
17:21:25 <laudrain> q+
17:21:28 <dauwhe> ... maybe we don't have relationships with them at all
17:21:47 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:22:06 <dauwhe> tzviya: once we have the summary from W&M, we might share with the BG as well as the people who asked to be informed
17:22:15 <dauwhe> ... now that you have that info, what do you plan to do?
17:22:25 <dauwhe> ... as we talk about our next steps, sharing that info would be important
17:22:34 <wolfgang> s/W&M/Wendy and Mateus/
17:22:39 <dauwhe> ... if we do x, y, z because of the survey, we should let people know
17:22:54 <dauwhe> ... maybe ask them to join CG
17:23:19 <dauwhe> laudrain: could we have the list? are these people european?
17:23:32 <dauwhe> ... we could try to have more local contact
17:23:37 <wolfgang> s/european/European/
17:23:40 <dauwhe> liisamk: we need to be careful about sharing lists
17:24:08 <dauwhe> ... there's a separate list of people who wanted further conversation
17:24:13 <dauwhe> ... do we know them?
17:24:29 <dauwhe> ... we need to figure that out first
17:24:39 <dauwhe> Karen: to build on that
17:24:40 <liisamk> ack laudrain
17:24:40 <laudrain> q
17:24:59 <dauwhe> ... I can also compare to former TPI and IDPF list and our big contacts list to see if we've talked to them before
17:25:17 <dauwhe> liisamk: let's do that
17:25:21 <liisamk> ack karen
17:25:24 <liisamk> ack Ralph
17:25:30 <dauwhe> Ralph: in addition to Karen's comment, and Cristina's comment about personal outreach
17:25:52 <dauwhe> ... from personal contacts we might discover themes, and invite some to one of these meetings to discuss
17:26:00 <dauwhe> q?
17:26:13 <dauwhe> Topic: PBGSCF2F
17:26:33 <dauwhe> liisamk: we talked about survey, what we were seeing, identifying there is still work to do on epub
17:26:40 <dauwhe> ... and a need for backlist compatibility
17:27:09 <dauwhe> ... so we started to work on a charter for an EPUB 3 Working Group, chaired by dauwhe and wendyreid
17:27:22 <dauwhe> ... and we talked about the CG as important for incubating ideas
17:27:28 <dauwhe> ... what else? what questions?
17:27:37 <tzviya> q+
17:27:44 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:27:57 <dauwhe> tzviya: we did a lot of assessing about how the publishing activity has worked from the start
17:28:09 <dauwhe> ... and recognized that it has not always gone smoothly
17:28:17 <dauwhe> ... and we're open to thoughts on that
17:28:25 <dauwhe> ... I was surprised about how well the meeting went
17:28:41 <dauwhe> ... we came away with a desire to make this successful
17:28:55 <dauwhe> ... we need a place for the community voice
17:29:05 <dauwhe> ... and leadership from all over
17:29:18 <dauwhe> ... we need to document all the business and technical cases
17:29:35 <dauwhe> ... we need better definitions than "aligning with the web"
17:29:40 <dauwhe> ... and need to be more specific
17:29:49 <liisamk> ack Ralph
17:29:52 <dauwhe> Ralph: well said, liisamk and tzviya
17:29:59 <dauwhe> ... and thanks to the host, Wiley
17:30:11 <dauwhe> ... liisamk, you mentioned the WG charter
17:30:25 <dauwhe> ... what kind of time frame do we think such a charter might be available for public comment
17:30:36 <ivan> q+
17:30:44 <dauwhe> q+
17:30:53 <dauwhe> ... there was a desire to be careful
17:31:00 <dauwhe> ack iv
17:31:12 <dauwhe> ivan: Can you get Karen first?
17:31:56 <dauwhe> Karen: one of the feedbacks... because I have multiple regions, recently back from Australia, Brazil, Canada
17:32:03 <Ralph> s/be careful/communicate clearly
17:32:08 <dauwhe> ... there's not enough interaction with those regions
17:32:13 <dauwhe> ... they feel like they're ignored
17:32:18 <dauwhe> ... even by their parent companies
17:32:34 <dauwhe> ... so there's a need for more international input
17:32:35 <Ralph> [Karen, did you remind them to complete the survey? !]
17:32:43 <dauwhe> ivan: to come back to Ralph's question
17:33:01 <dauwhe> ... from a content point of view, the work is well underway
17:33:08 <dauwhe> ... it could go public
17:33:21 <dauwhe> ... but the whole issue about EPUB going to REC, it won't be easy
17:33:42 <dauwhe> ... what would make me more comfortable, but with some public communication in the form of a blog
17:33:57 <dauwhe> ... that on a very high level gives a summary of a week ago, and how we reached that conclusion
17:34:03 <dauwhe> ... I think that should go out first
17:34:13 <dauwhe> ... not the technical text of the charter
17:34:43 <dauwhe> ... but we should go ahead, but with this blog post first
17:34:45 <dauwhe> q?
17:34:55 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
17:35:06 <Ralph> Dave: there's already a lot of work on the charter from the CG
17:35:19 <Ralph> ... deliberately designed to be adaptable to a WG charter
17:35:50 <Ralph> ... there's still work to be done, especially figuring out how to digest the information from the survey
17:35:59 <Ralph> ... take stuff from the survey that's appropriate for a Rec-Track EPUB3
17:36:10 <Ralph> ... that make be our most technically challenging task for the charter
17:36:23 <Ralph> ... agree with Ivan that we need to clearly express our reasoning and goals
17:36:24 <tzviya> q+
17:36:47 <Ralph> ... I am willing to draft a blog for the community on why we want to take EPUB to Rec
17:36:48 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:36:52 <dauwhe> tzviya: I can help Dave
17:37:05 <dauwhe> liisamk: I can help as well
17:37:21 <liisamk> ack Ralph
17:37:21 <dauwhe> Ralph: great, thanks Dave and Tzviya and Liisa
17:37:43 <dauwhe> ... it would help to... we have the community here... but there's also a wider community
17:38:21 <dauwhe> ... I would encourage us to start socializing this in the wider community now, so we can incorporate feedback from the larger community in the charter
17:38:28 <dauwhe> ... publish early, publish often
17:38:30 <Cristina> q+
17:38:57 <dauwhe> ... we should express why we think this is the right direction, and point to a draft
17:39:04 <dauwhe> ... and then encourage comments on the draft
17:39:20 <ivan> q+
17:39:20 <liisamk> ack Cristina
17:39:26 <liisamk> q+
17:39:32 <dauwhe> Cristina: the goal of the blog post is to get people involved--to create motivation and inclusion
17:39:49 <dauwhe> ... we want the community to be involved
17:39:57 <dauwhe> ivan: that, but not only that
17:39:59 <liisamk> q-
17:40:01 <laudrain> q+
17:40:04 <liisamk> ack ivan
17:40:12 <dauwhe> ... the charter text is deliberately a relatively terse text, concise
17:40:24 <dauwhe> ... so it needs some sort of a background explanation
17:40:32 <dauwhe> ... to avoid people misunderstanding the charter
17:40:39 <tzviya> q+
17:40:42 <Ralph> [that background explainer can be the blog post that Dave is starting, right?!]
17:40:45 <dauwhe> ... the charter text is a legal contract, and you need some explanation of the contract
17:40:56 <dauwhe> laudrain: high-level comms is very important
17:40:56 <liisamk> ack laudrain
17:41:24 <dauwhe> ... i would be happy to see in that blog post that some very important decisions have been made around backward compatibility
17:41:31 <dauwhe> ... and that the CG will play a major role
17:41:55 <dauwhe> ... so that the full publishing community will see this as a well-managed process
17:42:06 <dauwhe> ... and there is an intention of preserving the existing base
17:42:10 <dauwhe> tzviya: I agree with Luc
17:42:12 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:42:15 <Ralph> <Ralph> +1 to Luc
17:42:30 <dauwhe> ... we should be talking not just to the existing epub community
17:42:37 <dauwhe> ... but also to the web community
17:42:58 <dauwhe> ... maybe we need an explainer
17:43:20 <dauwhe> q?
17:43:24 <dauwhe> liisamk: anything else?
17:43:54 <dauwhe> Topic: the role of the PBG
17:44:09 <dauwhe> liisamk: with new chairs, we wanted to talk about the PBG works
17:44:23 <dauwhe> ... to determine whether there are business needs that percolate up from the CG
17:44:32 <dauwhe> ... we talked about outreach, education, webinars...
17:44:47 <dauwhe> ... how do we address misinformation?
17:44:52 <dauwhe> ... we talked about guest speakers
17:45:03 <dauwhe> ... we wanted to open that up for other ideas of how the BG would work
17:45:36 <dauwhe> Karen: these are great topics
17:45:42 <dauwhe> ... to Luc's point about communication
17:45:49 <dauwhe> ... there needs to be a more focused collaboration
17:46:01 <dauwhe> ... not only gathering names, but what is the best vehicle?
17:46:10 <dauwhe> ... we have a CRM system for contacts
17:46:10 <Daihei> q+
17:46:18 <dauwhe> ... there needs to be more garden-tending
17:46:25 <dauwhe> ... who are the people? what do they want?
17:46:35 <liisamk> ack Ralph
17:46:42 <dauwhe> Ralph: as I skimmed through the comments I was also surprised by misinformation
17:46:49 <dauwhe> ... there are several classes of them
17:46:58 <dauwhe> ... it might come out in some 1-on-1 calls
17:47:11 <dauwhe> ... some broad info like misunderstanding about a11y of PDF and EPUB
17:47:21 <dauwhe> ... that's an opportunity for more general blog posts
17:47:48 <dauwhe> ... we can use the misinformation as a starting point for education
17:48:08 <dauwhe> ... there's a range of responses
17:48:16 <laudrain> q+
17:48:33 <liisamk> ack Daihei
17:48:47 <dauwhe> Daihei: I feel contradictions between people in the industry and outside of it
17:49:01 <dauwhe> ... many people are happy with the current ecosystem
17:49:14 <dauwhe> ... and they want it maintained
17:49:18 <Ralph> s/responses/responses we can give, from general blog posts to 1:1 conversation
17:49:43 <dauwhe> ... but they want to see more chances of merging with publishing
17:50:09 <dauwhe> ... The PBG can perform a role of being an entry point for those outside of publishing
17:50:27 <dauwhe> ... especially from web-related content people
17:50:30 <George> q+
17:50:45 <dauwhe> laudrain: webinars are a good idea
17:50:46 <liisamk> ack laudrain
17:51:09 <dauwhe> ... how do we make the connection to the people who answered the survey
17:51:19 <dauwhe> ... does the webinar require a w3c account?
17:51:30 <dauwhe> ... how do we reach the largest community possible?
17:51:40 <Ralph> [I see no reason to restrict attendance at a webinar]
17:51:50 <dauwhe> ... and begin to address the misinformation we've seen?
17:51:59 <liisamk> ack George
17:52:03 <dauwhe> George: DAISY has a zoom account with 500 seats
17:52:15 <dauwhe> ... we've done webinars in the US on higher ed about EPUB that have been very effective
17:52:28 <dauwhe> ... we would be happy to use that Zoom account for webinars
17:52:44 <dauwhe> ... but we don't charge people; it should be free and open and available after
17:52:46 <Ralph> <ralph> +1 to George; free and open webinar(s)
17:53:01 <dauwhe> ... I did one webinar... rumble in publishing jungle, PDF vs EPUB and it was fun and instructive
17:53:07 <wolfgang> +1 to George - brilliant idea :)
17:53:08 <laudrain> q+
17:53:21 <wendyreid> +1
17:53:22 <dauwhe> ... it's a marketing campaign promoting good info about the publishing standards
17:53:34 <dauwhe> ... it's a lot of work but then it's evergreen
17:53:37 <laudrain> +1
17:53:52 <liisamk> ack laudrain
17:54:06 <dauwhe> laudrain: EDRLab is organizing stuff for members; we can also share through them
17:54:32 <dauwhe> liisamk: if you have other ideas for PBG, let us know.
17:54:39 <dauwhe> ... two other items on the agenda
17:54:54 <dauwhe> Topic: Bug GitHub
17:55:13 <dauwhe> liisamk: I have a hundred bugs on reading systems that I would offer to get started
17:55:33 <dauwhe> Topic: The role of audio and video
17:55:46 <dauwhe> liisamk: the least supported part of EPUB is audio and video embedding
17:55:52 <dauwhe> ... which would be useful for education etc
17:56:04 <dauwhe> George: totally agree
17:56:11 <dauwhe> liisamk: accessible audio and video
17:56:13 <dauwhe> laudrain: of course
17:56:16 <dauwhe> George: of course
17:56:27 <dauwhe> Karen: I like both topics, especially the 2nd
17:56:34 <dauwhe> ... I talked about a11y in Australia
17:56:43 <liisamk> q+
17:56:54 <dauwhe> ... I was surprised that a lot of people were not aware of the accessibility of EPUB
17:57:02 <dauwhe> ... integrating audio and video is huge
17:57:03 <JulieBlair>  +1 for accessible audio and video
17:57:18 <dauwhe> ... and the idea of having guest speakers present? that might be a good area.
17:57:33 <dauwhe> liisamk: this topic occurred to me because of amazon
17:57:47 <dauwhe> ... they were asking about enhanced typesetting for enhanced ebooks
17:57:58 <dauwhe> ... we havven't made a lot of these books lately
17:58:14 <dauwhe> ... at the start it was gratuitous use of tech
17:58:14 <wolfgang> s/havven't/haven't/
17:58:21 <dauwhe> ... we could maybe do it better now?
17:58:31 <dauwhe> Ralph: back on previous topic
17:58:36 <liisamk> ack Ralph
17:58:36 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to ask George to mail us a pointer to Rumble in the Publishing Jungle
17:58:40 <dauwhe> ... since George mentioned rumble in jungle
17:58:43 <liisamk> ack liisamk
17:58:45 <Cristina> q+
17:58:46 <dauwhe> ... I found announcement but not recording
17:58:56 <dauwhe> George: it was in a paid webinar which I won't do again
17:59:21 <Ralph> [-> https://www.ahead.org/events/event-description?CalendarEventKey=05e4648a-2132-4411-a68d-3d4a2e1193fc&Home=%2Fevents%2Fcalendar "announcement of WEBINAR: The Rumble in the Publishing Jungle: PDF and EPUB duke it out!" ]
17:59:36 <dauwhe> Ralph: there's a member-only list
17:59:46 <dauwhe> liisamk: we are at the hour
17:59:53 <liisamk> ack Cristina
18:00:09 <dauwhe> Cristina: thinking about audio and video, it would be useful for educational material
18:00:23 <dauwhe> liisamk: we have upcoming meetings
18:00:39 <dauwhe> liisamk: we should try to have some aus/SA calls
18:00:41 <dauwhe> liisamk: thanks
18:00:43 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
18:00:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, dauwhe, liisamk, tzviya, Cristina, laudrain, wolfgang, ivan, wendyreid, George, Karen, Daihei, Julie, BillK, JulieBlair,
18:00:46 <Zakim> ... Bill_Kasdorf
18:00:46 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:00:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/03/03-pbg-minutes.html Zakim
18:00:48 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:00:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
18:01:27 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
18:01:27 <RRSAgent> I see no action items