15:34:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
15:34:49 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/01/10-pbgsc-irc
15:34:51 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:34:52 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
15:34:58 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Chairs’ Telco
15:34:58 <ivan> Chair:  tzviya, liisa
15:34:58 <ivan> Date: 2020-01-10
15:34:58 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Chairs’ Telco
15:34:58 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2020Jan/0013.html
15:35:30 <ivan> chair: liisa
15:49:42 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbgsc
15:59:28 <Luc> Luc has joined #pbgsc
15:59:42 <wendyreid> present+
15:59:54 <dauwhe> present+
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16:00:44 <tzviya> present+
16:00:51 <liisamk> present+
16:01:24 <Luc> Present+ laudrain
16:01:49 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
16:02:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
16:02:22 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pbgsc
16:02:26 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:03:58 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #pbgsc
16:04:04 <Ralph> present+
16:05:20 <Avneesh> present+
16:05:36 <dauwhe> liisamk: let's get started
16:05:37 <jeff> jeff has joined #pbgsc
16:05:41 <jeff> present+
16:05:45 <dauwhe> Topic: amazon
16:05:54 <dauwhe> ... I've been working with them on bugs
16:06:00 <dauwhe> ... so have regular talks
16:06:07 <dauwhe> ... so they asked about w3c
16:06:36 <dauwhe> ... we want to be involved but don't have a lot of time
16:06:46 <dauwhe> ... the BG might be interesting
16:06:51 <dauwhe> ... with the survey
16:06:56 <dauwhe> ... so they were excited about that
16:07:08 <dauwhe> ... what content isn't supported etc
16:07:16 <dauwhe> ... they do want to understand more about that
16:07:36 <dauwhe> ... they can also lurk
16:07:56 <dauwhe> ... or reach out individually
16:08:08 <tzviya> q+
16:08:28 <dauwhe> ... they don't want it to look back if they have to pull back for other projects
16:08:33 <dauwhe> s/back/bad/
16:08:44 <jeff> q+
16:09:00 <liisamk> ack tzviya
16:09:06 <dauwhe> tzviya: that happens all the time, it's totally normal for involvement to ebb and flow
16:09:26 <dauwhe> ... some large companies have been involved, and then not. They might come back.
16:09:48 <dauwhe> ... we have the test suite for audiobooks right now. That might be interesting to them.
16:10:39 <wendyreid> q+
16:10:40 <Avneesh> I heard the same, audio team is at a distance from Kindle
16:11:04 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:11:17 <dauwhe> jeff: as a member of w3c, amazon has the ability to show up wherever they want
16:11:27 <dauwhe> ... so the Q is, can they show up unnoticed?
16:11:34 <dauwhe> ... we have a status for that, observer status
16:11:42 <dauwhe> ... it's most important for a WG
16:11:52 <dauwhe> ... we want to make sure they aren't contributing ideas
16:12:06 <dauwhe> ... if they are not members they haven't made IPR committments
16:12:19 <dauwhe> ... the chairs can invite people as observers
16:12:27 <dauwhe> ... they are not participants
16:12:46 <dauwhe> ... having observers in a bg is less dicey because of no IPR issues
16:12:55 <dauwhe> ... CGs do have the IPR issue
16:13:00 <liisamk> ack wendyreid
16:13:19 <dauwhe> wendyreid: the discussion I've had with amazon about kindle vs audible is that they are very far apart
16:13:41 <dauwhe> ... should we point amazon at test suite, and mention pub manifest?
16:13:55 <dauwhe> ... they were interested in feedback
16:14:09 <liisamk> q+
16:14:10 <dauwhe> ... and how other reading systems get feedback from publishers
16:14:28 <Luc> Luc has joined #pbgsc
16:14:35 <dauwhe> ... is it worth mentioning epub as rec track to them? and saying that the tests are something we want to do? And getting more interop?
16:15:13 <dauwhe> ... they are interested in being a bit more open than in the past
16:15:36 <dauwhe> liisamk: based on what jeff said, we should encourage to get them involved in the BG
16:16:11 <dauwhe> ... we need to be mindful that only in the last few months have the kindle publishing guidelines mentioned epub
16:16:22 <dauwhe> ... but they're always looking at ways to improve the reading experience
16:16:53 <dauwhe> ... and is there is a problem they have that epub advancing itself can help them with?
16:17:05 <jeff> q+
16:17:06 <Luc> q+
16:17:12 <liisamk> ack liisamk
16:17:20 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:17:25 <dauwhe> jeff: we should send them the survey
16:17:30 <dauwhe> liisamk: absolutely
16:17:31 <tzviya> q+
16:17:38 <liisamk> ack Luc
16:18:03 <dauwhe> luc: amazon is interested in a11y, they have put a11y in their new guidelines, and they want to support more of that
16:18:09 <dauwhe> ... and that's one of their motivations
16:18:17 <liisamk> ack tzviya
16:18:35 <dauwhe> tzviya: many of us have relationships with amazon, with different people, which can be fragile
16:18:52 <dauwhe> ... but we should give them choices of which groups and how they participate
16:19:04 <dauwhe> ... we shouldn't be overly cautious. We don't need to protect them.
16:19:14 <dauwhe> q?
16:19:56 <Ralph> [there's not a formal "observer" status on an ongoing basis; chairs may invite guests to selected meetings but that's not expected to be an on-going invitation.  However, Members may certainly subscribe to (or read archives of) mailing lists.]
16:20:12 <wendyreid> q+
16:20:17 <dauwhe> liisamk: I know the IP issues are a concern
16:20:20 <liisamk> ack wendyredi
16:20:28 <liisamk> ack wendyreid
16:20:30 <dauwhe> wendyreid: we can invite them to both meetings in one week
16:20:57 <Luc> q+
16:20:59 <dauwhe> ... the BG meetings show one side of the activity; they should see a WG meeting
16:21:08 <dauwhe> ... or a CG meeting if they end up happening
16:21:17 <dauwhe> ... let's expose them to both sides of the activity
16:21:31 <ivan> q+
16:21:35 <Rachel> present+
16:21:45 <dauwhe> ... the topics, goals, and people are very different
16:22:11 <liisamk> ack Luc
16:22:42 <dauwhe> Luc: the mail we have today is on public steering committee list, and many people can read these mails
16:22:47 <Ralph> [Luc is correct]
16:23:05 <dauwhe> q+
16:23:27 <liisamk> ack Ivan
16:23:30 <dauwhe> ivan: yes, the mailing list is public
16:23:55 <dauwhe> ... if, after our meeting in February, we have any chartering work
16:23:58 <Ralph> [more specifically, the mail archive is public; one subscribes to the list by joining the group]
16:24:13 <dauwhe> ... we have to be very outgoing to get them discussing goals and targets of the charter
16:24:20 <dauwhe> ... they may or may not join the upcoming group
16:24:28 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
16:24:42 <Ralph> Dave: it is a core value of us and W3C to work in public
16:24:45 <wendyreid> dauwhe: I wanted to mention that a core value is for us to work in public
16:24:55 <wendyreid> ... we don't need to protect amazon, but we need to work in public
16:24:59 <wendyreid> scribe+
16:25:25 <dauwhe> liisamk: moving on, I wanted to give a brief update
16:26:16 <dauwhe> ... I think there's a lot of new stuff in InDesign about accessibility, and we should make that more public
16:26:18 <Ralph> s/Dave: it is a core value of us and W3C to work in public//
16:26:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:26:37 <dauwhe> Luc: sorry, I didn't hear what you said clearly
16:26:49 <dauwhe> ... we had contact with ??? about a11y in InDesign
16:27:20 <dauwhe> ... We have talked to Andrew ??? about a11y
16:27:22 <wendyreid> s/???/Andrew Kirkpatrick/
16:27:56 <dauwhe> ... we wrote to him about getting more news, but we haven't had anything new since october
16:27:57 <liisamk> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:28:02 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: in terms of a11y in ID
16:28:08 <dauwhe> ... are they thinking of that in EPUB or PDF?
16:28:18 <dauwhe> liisamk: what leonard said was EPUB
16:28:34 <dauwhe> ... it's under the hood
16:28:37 <wendyreid> q+
16:28:40 <dauwhe> luc: it's in epub export
16:28:57 <liisamk> ack wendyreid
16:29:19 <Rachel> +1 wendyreid
16:29:22 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I really want to get to the F2F topic. This doesn't seem like an SC topic but a BG topic?
16:29:39 <dauwhe> liisamk: I want to talk about the survey
16:29:51 <dauwhe> ... is it for just epub or for epub and beyond?
16:29:54 <dauwhe> q+
16:30:04 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
16:30:12 <wendyreid> dauwhe: I think the survey should just be focused on EPUB and its future
16:30:20 <wendyreid> ... we should not be talking about web publications or bundles
16:30:20 <tzviya> q+
16:30:26 <wendyreid> ... we want to know where EPUB should be going
16:30:37 <wendyreid> ... our audience is familiar with EPUB, its limitations
16:30:53 <wendyreid> ... it would be confusing to ask questions about WP or books as first class citizens of the web
16:31:01 <wendyreid> ... we should at least try to focus on EPUB
16:31:05 <dauwhe> tzviya: I agree with dave
16:31:05 <liisamk> ack tzviya
16:31:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Dave
16:31:14 <dauwhe> ... but a lot of answers may inform other things that aren't epub
16:31:23 <dauwhe> ... for example, being able to link from epub to epub
16:31:31 <jeff> q+
16:31:37 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:31:45 <dauwhe> jeff: I also agree that it should be about epub
16:31:57 <dauwhe> ... we shouldn't ask confusing questions about books on the web
16:32:03 <dauwhe> ... but we shouldn't exclude that
16:32:11 <dauwhe> ... like open ended questions about the future of epub
16:32:23 <Avneesh> +1 to Jeff (we should not exclude)
16:32:32 <Daihei> q+
16:32:58 <dauwhe> liisamk: we should frame the overall survey, but make sure sure the questions aren't projecting answers
16:32:59 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:33:08 <dauwhe> Daihei: fundamentally i agree with dave
16:33:14 <dauwhe> ... focus on epub on where it's going
16:33:28 <dauwhe> ... but we should be open to all ideas from industry related people
16:33:35 <dauwhe> ... in december I was in asia and japan
16:33:43 <dauwhe> ... ??? educational publishing
16:33:58 <dauwhe> ... trade publishing is satisfied with epub 3.2
16:34:15 <dauwhe> ... they don't want to confuse the issue
16:34:41 <dauwhe> ... but on the magazine side they need something outside epub
16:35:12 <dauwhe> ... seeing something outside they see that responsive design should be brought into digital publishing
16:35:23 <dauwhe> ... and w3c should be creating standards
16:35:34 <dauwhe> ... so we should listen to what they say
16:35:43 <wendyreid> q+
16:35:51 <dauwhe> ... we should hear from other parts of the publishing industry
16:36:13 <dauwhe> ... there are going to be some new ideas coming into epub and beyond epub
16:36:19 <liisamk> ack wendyreid
16:36:23 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I agree with dave, we should be focused on epub
16:36:34 <dauwhe> ... we can ask about the future
16:36:55 <dauwhe> ... we should be sending it to more parts of the industry to understand what they're missing
16:37:02 <dauwhe> ... responsive design should work in epub
16:37:13 <dauwhe> ... but there are reading system bugs
16:37:29 <Daihei> q+
16:37:31 <dauwhe> ... standards-wise, it is certainly allowed
16:37:41 <dauwhe> ... and we should know where reading systems are failing them
16:38:02 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:38:11 <dauwhe> Daihei: re: responsive design, it's not just text and reflow
16:38:29 <dauwhe> ... we're talking about education, with content with graphics, text, and video
16:38:38 <dauwhe> ... and then respoinsive design in epub 3 doesn't work
16:39:12 <dauwhe> liisamk: we need to come to our f2f with a lot of information already out there
16:39:19 <dauwhe> ... so we can have a more decisive meeting
16:39:33 <dauwhe> ... can we start framing what we need to do before the meeting, and how to accomplish it
16:39:39 <jeff> q+
16:39:43 <dauwhe> ... should we keep going with the emails?
16:39:51 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:40:01 <dauwhe> jeff: +1 to tzviya for starting the conversation
16:40:16 <dauwhe> ... for a successful meeting we need well-defined questions that we want to get answered in the meeting
16:40:25 <dauwhe> ... they could be structure questions, business questions
16:40:26 <tzviya> q+
16:40:34 <dauwhe> ... after the meeting we should have a plan, energy, etc
16:40:46 <dauwhe> ... tzviya and liisamk volunteered to chair
16:41:17 <dauwhe> ... in a couple of weeks the chairs should be able to write a crisp list of what we want to get done in the next year
16:41:28 <dauwhe> ... what gets chartered, what gets done, what outreach, what conferences
16:41:44 <dauwhe> ... and then we can make specific committments in the meeting
16:41:46 <liisamk> ack tzviya
16:41:50 <dauwhe> tzviya: I agree with that
16:42:01 <liisamk> q+
16:42:06 <dauwhe> ... in advance we need to look what has worked well and what has not worked well in the pub activity
16:42:19 <dauwhe> ... we need to look at the division of labor
16:42:29 <dauwhe> ... what should be done in the BG vs WG
16:42:42 <dauwhe> ... and the BG chair may be changing
16:43:01 <dauwhe> ... Avneesh keeps reminding me that we're mushing together goals and structure
16:43:15 <dauwhe> ... we need to figure out goals and then find a structure to achieve the goals
16:43:32 <dauwhe> ... so we need to be able to say what we need
16:43:49 <dauwhe> ... so we start writing a list of what I'd like to see in epub or some other standard
16:44:13 <dauwhe> liisamk: I can give us three assignments
16:44:30 <dauwhe> ... 1. keep converstation going about where we are and what we need to do
16:44:48 <dauwhe> ... 2. have a doc for aspirations and goals for our organizations, and where we want the community to go
16:45:14 <dauwhe> ... and what the sets of chairs think is working and what isn't working for the various groups
16:45:21 <Avneesh> q+
16:45:26 <dauwhe> ack lii
16:45:27 <liisamk> ack liisamk
16:45:34 <liisamk> ack Avneesh
16:45:42 <dauwhe> Avneesh: I am comning from different angle
16:45:58 <dauwhe> ... when I start on strategy, I begin with motivations
16:46:08 <dauwhe> ... the survey is important, but it may not be completed yet
16:46:43 <jeff> q+ to disagree with Avneesh
16:46:54 <dauwhe> ... one motivation is a11y and i18n
16:47:06 <dauwhe> ... and we need to support IDPF community and make sure they are happy
16:47:24 <dauwhe> ... we described that IDPF provided an ecosystem with readium, epubcheck, etc.
16:47:31 <dauwhe> ... how is that sustainable in w3c?
16:48:10 <Luc> +1000 to Avneesh
16:48:10 <dauwhe> ... some people would say they contributed to epubcheck, so why should they also pay for w3c membership?
16:48:18 <wendyreid> +1 avneesh
16:48:20 <tzviya> +1 to Avneesh
16:48:23 <dauwhe> ... from the drivers we can come up with the objectives
16:48:30 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:48:30 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to disagree with Avneesh
16:49:06 <wendyreid> q+
16:49:06 <dauwhe> jeff: Avneesh said that w3c needs revenue, but I don't see that as a driver. We need to support the publishing community.
16:49:15 <liisamk> ack wendyreid
16:49:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> I think Avneesh was referring to funding for epubcheck etc.
16:49:27 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I agree with Avneesh; he's been so helpful to us in creating proper strategy
16:49:45 <dauwhe> ... we do need to get the survey out are dependant on us having a little back of feedback
16:50:00 <dauwhe> ... but if we can get it out in the next week or two we'll have a healthy amount of feedback
16:50:11 <dauwhe> ... we already know what some of the motivations and feedback we'll get
16:50:18 <dauwhe> ... we know what drives us crazy
16:50:37 <dauwhe> ... and we should remember that, and also learn what we don't know about
16:50:48 <Daihei> q+
16:50:54 <dauwhe> ... how do we maintain membership in our groups and give them a good experience
16:51:09 <dauwhe> ... we are responsible that we are providing a service to those who join
16:51:21 <liisamk> ack Daihei
16:51:39 <dauwhe> Daihei: in terms of business community needs, japan is first and one of largest in use of epub
16:51:53 <dauwhe> ... Asia is a very large market
16:52:02 <dauwhe> ... but I'm the only one on the SC
16:52:32 <dauwhe> ... I will make sure that we get survey feedback, and that issues from asia are on F2F agenda
16:52:43 <dauwhe> ... and combined into interest in w3c from asia
16:52:56 <dauwhe> liisamk: trying to wrap up this agenda item
16:53:14 <dauwhe> ... it sounds like avneesh wants us to add motivations for the strategy
16:53:40 <dauwhe> ... so I would like us to set a goal of working on the three documents, and also get a draft of the survey ready in the next two weeks
16:53:48 <tzviya> q+
16:53:51 <Daihei> +1 to Liisa
16:53:56 <Luc> +1
16:53:59 <liisamk> ack tzviya
16:54:02 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'd like to integrate the motivations into the other docs
16:54:05 <dauwhe> liisamk: agreeed
16:54:14 <dauwhe> tzviya: liisamk, I think that's our job as chairs
16:54:28 <dauwhe> Topic: F2F planning
16:54:43 <dauwhe> liisamk: you had questions about the a11y presentation at lunch. Is that OK?
16:54:52 <Luc> q+
16:54:53 <dauwhe> tzviya: is it oK with everyone?
16:54:56 <dauwhe> everyone: yes
16:55:13 <dauwhe> liisamk: can you propose the hours for the day
16:55:20 <wendyreid> +!
16:55:21 <Luc> q-
16:55:22 <dauwhe> tzviya: I was assuming 9 to 5
16:55:22 <wendyreid> +1
16:55:26 <Daihei> Okay
16:55:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> I would have to leave early to get a flight home if I come, which I'm considering doing
16:55:35 <dauwhe> ... we will have a remote dial-in option
16:55:42 <Luc> Thanks for remote
16:55:49 <dauwhe> ... there will be lunch from Wiley
16:56:09 <dauwhe> tzviya: in terms of location/logistics
16:56:12 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/wiki/AB/2019-01-HOB
16:56:18 <dauwhe> ... wiley hosted an ab meeting last year
16:56:25 <dauwhe> ... that link has logistic info
16:56:34 <dauwhe> ... we are close to public transport
16:56:47 <dauwhe> ... I don't think anyone needs a visa, if you do contact me for a letter of invitation
16:57:02 <dauwhe> ... there will be coffee, but I'm not sure about breakfast
16:57:14 <dauwhe> ... liisamk, we should have a call to work out some logistics
16:57:24 <dauwhe> ... any other questions about Hoboken?
16:57:25 <dauwhe> q?
16:57:26 <tzviya> q?
16:57:41 <dauwhe> liisamk: anything else to discuss?
16:57:54 <dauwhe> tzviya: if you have dietary restrictions please contact me
16:58:43 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'm going to add a list of attendees
16:58:51 <dauwhe> ivan: where should we put our names?
16:58:51 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12mOkAVcopnEA_-H1t_TQ0ocUKzgqeA1u-zcArPdsTss/edit?usp=sharing
16:58:57 <dauwhe> tzviya: in the draft agenda
17:00:04 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #pbgsc
17:00:30 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
17:00:30 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, dauwhe, tzviya, liisamk, laudrain, Bill_Kasdorf, Ralph, Avneesh, jeff, Rachel, !
17:00:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:00:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/10-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
17:00:35 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:00:39 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
17:00:49 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
17:00:49 <RRSAgent> I see no action items