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15:35:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:35:04 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
15:35:22 <ivan> Meeting: DID Working Group Telco
15:35:22 <ivan> Chair: burn
15:35:22 <ivan> Date: 2020-01-06
15:35:22 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-did-wg/2020Jan/0001.html
15:35:22 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2020-01-06: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-did-wg/2020Jan/0001.html
15:35:23 <ivan> Regrets+ dezell, TallTed
15:51:52 <burn> burn has joined #did
15:52:27 <burn> burn has changed the topic to: 7 January 2020 DID WG Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-did-wg/2020Jan/0001.html
15:53:54 <burn> present+
15:56:27 <ivan> present+
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16:03:11 <manu> scribe: manu
16:03:15 <rhiaro> regrets+
16:03:43 <burn> scribe+ Justin_R
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16:03:57 <Justin_R> burn: you put the nick and then what they said
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16:04:01 <drummond> present+
16:04:07 <Orie> present+
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16:04:08 <Justin_R> ... if you do dot dot dot space and no colon it means whatever the last nick
16:04:23 <dmitriz> present+
16:04:29 <Justin_R> present+
16:04:29 <ken> present+
16:04:41 <ivan> scribe+ manu
16:04:55 <burn> Topic: Agenda Review, Introductions, Re-introductions
16:05:02 <yancy> present+
16:05:20 <Justin_R> burn: after annoncements we'll be scheduling upcoming extra calls, then focus on non-recommendation-track documents
16:05:30 <selfissued> selfissued has joined #did
16:05:43 <Justin_R> ... use cases document, rubric document, and any other non-rec documents the group might be interested in
16:05:54 <selfissued> present+
16:05:58 <Justin_R> ... if we have time, cover pull requests and issues
16:06:05 <manu> q+ to note VCWG vote?
16:06:09 <agropper> agropper has joined #did
16:06:18 <burn> Topic: Announcements: Get your issues in; sign up for f2f; Boat tour update; Apr   f2f in CA?
16:06:20 <dlongley> q?
16:06:29 <agropper> present+
16:06:34 <joel> joel has joined #did
16:06:40 <joel> present+
16:06:52 <burn> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11haGLiY3AYi8uxIQcfndAixmtXjymNTTFbDQWRYkKrQ/edit#gid=0
16:06:54 <selfissued> q+
16:07:09 <Justin_R> ... get issues in before f2f, sign up for f2f meeting
16:07:38 <burn> ack manu
16:07:38 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note VCWG vote?
16:07:56 <Justin_R> manu: quick ping to vote for VCWG maintenence rechartering, ends in 48h
16:08:00 <burn> ack selfissued
16:08:27 <sumita> sumita has joined #did
16:08:41 <Justin_R> selfissued: clarification for issues, should we file a new issue for matrix parameters or continue discussion?
16:09:03 <Justin_R> burn: chairs are aware of that question, matrix params will be part of that; separate issue will be cleaner but we'll get to it
16:09:19 <Justin_R> burn: boat tour
16:10:14 <Justin_R> ivan: boat tour is scheduled, details are boring, 1.5h tour on private boat, about 10-11eur, paid in advance will need to be paid back in AMS
16:10:53 <JoeAndrieu> are all attendees to F2F considered going on the boat?
16:10:59 <Justin_R> ... final number required 2wk before day (th); made offer on 20ppl, please sign up
16:11:08 <Justin_R> burn: is there a tab for the boat tour?
16:11:23 <JoeAndrieu> or just add it as a column
16:11:24 <Justin_R> ivan: there is no separate tour, just everyone attending, maybe add a new tab
16:11:29 <Justin_R> burn: yes we should add a new tab
16:11:47 <jonathan_holt> present+ jonathan_holt
16:12:05 <Justin_R> burn: we'll send a separate email about the boat tour, please fill in boat column on attendees page
16:12:24 <Justin_R> ivan: we start at 3, we'll be dropped at 4:30 in center
16:13:06 <Justin_R> burn: we encourage everyone to go, it's social time but informal discussion time is valuable
16:13:28 <Justin_R> ivan: we start at 4, dropped at 5:30
16:13:53 <burn> q?
16:14:10 <dbuc> *prepares flask for covert boat drinking*
16:14:31 <Justin_R> burn: a non-announcement announcement -- chairs asked if people were interested in f2f in conjunction with meeting in May, no interest
16:14:32 <JoeAndrieu> what day is the tour?
16:14:36 <Justin_R> ... but what about before/after IIW?
16:14:51 <drummond> +1 to a meeting at IIW
16:14:53 <JoeAndrieu> thanks, Ivan
16:15:12 <Justin_R> ... we will make final decisions at f2f, but we'd like a rough idea now; will send out a poll if it's positive
16:15:19 <JoeAndrieu> +1 to a meeting ~IIW
16:15:22 <ivan> -1 (unfortunately I have another trip_
16:15:23 <drummond> +1
16:15:24 <Justin_R> +1 to meeting around IIW but my schedule is tight
16:15:24 <ken> 0
16:15:26 <manu> +1
16:15:27 <dmitriz> +1
16:15:32 <markus_sabadello> +1
16:15:32 <yancy> -1
16:15:34 <joel> 0
16:15:37 <selfissued> q+
16:15:39 <agropper> +1
16:15:47 <identitywoman> +1
16:15:48 <burn> ack selfissued
16:15:53 <dlongley> 0
16:15:53 <phila> phila has joined #did
16:16:00 <Justin_R> selfissued: there's an OIDF meeting the day before IIW, which wouldn't work
16:16:05 <Justin_R> q+
16:16:15 <SamSmith> SamSmith has joined #did
16:16:21 <SamSmith> +1
16:16:37 <burn> q?
16:16:41 <burn> ack Justin_R
16:17:10 <manu> Justin_R: I would like the Chairs to consider a meeting during IIW, short meeting, realize we're not deciding that now.
16:17:38 <manu> burn: It's tricky to have an official meeting during another meeting, but the Chairs will consider it.
16:18:19 <Justin_R> JoeAndrieu: rebooting is scheduled for 3/16-20 in beunos aires argentina  (starting monday night)
16:18:29 <JoeAndrieu> http://rwot10.eventbrite.com
16:18:30 <Justin_R> ... eventbrite is up rwot10.eventbrite.com
16:19:04 <Justin_R> ... first deadline for earlybird papers is the 17th (of Jan?), earlybird tickets by 24th (of Jan?)
16:19:15 <Justin_R> ... apologies for the foreshortened schedule
16:19:22 <ivan> q+
16:19:35 <burn> ack ivan
16:19:40 <JoeAndrieu> yes for Jan 17th/24th
16:19:43 <Justin_R> ivan: is there information on hotels for BA?
16:20:00 <Justin_R> JoeAndrieu: we haven't found a hotel we're endorsing yet, looking for discounts w/o buying a book of rooms
16:20:17 <dbuc> was there going to be spec content discussed on the call? I don't remember exactly what was said at the start of the meeting
16:20:18 <Justin_R> ... we'll find some; address in event is specific, there's a sheraton nearby
16:20:41 <Justin_R> ... you can get a reasonable hotel or airbnb nearby
16:20:50 <burn> Topic: Schedule Pre-F2f Abstract Data Model calls
16:21:16 <burn> https://doodle.com/poll/98zvw5tkgr6hsz3m
16:21:16 <Justin_R> burn: scheduling extra calls, not necessarily limited to data model discussions; there's a doodle poll
16:21:54 <Justin_R> ... next week looks good; reserve these dates (invites will come)
16:22:06 <Justin_R> ... Tuesday 1/14 @ 1PM ET (Boston)
16:22:15 <Justin_R> ... Friday 1/17 @ 1PM ET (Boston)
16:22:37 <Justin_R> ... Wednesday 1/22 @ 1PM ET (Boston), just in case (if needed)
16:23:03 <JoeAndrieu> q+ for Tuesday
16:23:51 <burn> Topic: Use Cases Document status update and plan
16:23:55 <Justin_R> Time zones are hard
16:24:02 <burn> https://w3c.github.io/did-use-cases/
16:24:21 <Justin_R> burn: chairs asked JoeAndrieu and Phil for status on document
16:24:30 <identitywoman> this may be a dumb question but where is the meeting in Amsterdam
16:24:47 <ChristopherA> present+
16:24:48 <Justin_R> JoeAndrieu: asked for input on use cases, goal of 20 or so paragraphs
16:25:08 <Justin_R> JoeAndrieu: we got a bunch of input but need to turn it into PRs, but holidays happened
16:25:17 <burn> Kaliya, see https://www.w3.org/2019/did-wg/Meetings/F2F/2020.01.Amsterdam
16:25:23 <Justin_R> ... goal is to have a draft w/use cases for review @ F2F
16:25:34 <Justin_R> ... goal of 2nd publication following f2f by 3/16
16:25:52 <Justin_R> ... to get before rebooting
16:26:22 <Justin_R> ... other item: people are thinking in terms of waterfall, with requirements first and then development
16:26:33 <Justin_R> ... not the intent, documenting the consensus of the WG to document why we're working on DIDs
16:26:55 <Justin_R> ... one thing evident is that as technical issues solidify people realize use cases that haven't been written down are driving their discussions
16:27:08 <Justin_R> ... use cases to be developed in parallel
16:27:26 <Justin_R> ... expect revisions if consensus changes after deadlines
16:28:00 <Justin_R> phila: apologies for not having been able to spend longer on it; weekly editor meetings to work on the document
16:28:07 <Justin_R> ... consensus of what the problem statement is
16:28:22 <Justin_R> ... recoginizing years of work in the community
16:28:29 <Justin_R> ... starting with a blank sheet is silly
16:29:06 <Justin_R> burn: we look forward to having a document to discuss at the f2f
16:29:09 <burn> Topic: Rubric Document plan
16:29:38 <manu> present+
16:29:48 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:29:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/07-did-minutes.html manu
16:29:52 <burn> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rYdWiwawWmLOWtHRvT0GzYcdewW_OS9M2mAkENLFdtY/edit?pli=1#heading=h.kmwybusdx6vb
16:29:53 <Justin_R> burn: this is one of our deliverables; we discussed how to start at TPAC
16:30:21 <Justin_R> ... work had been incubated in google document; chairs looked @ minutes from TPAC and there's not yet a decisions to move document into a repo
16:30:44 <Justin_R> ... we were waiting for more wrap-up work before moving it over
16:31:16 <Justin_R> JoeAndrieu: conversation @ TPAC came out from quandy of "what is decentralized enough" and are there requirements for calling something a DID method?
16:31:40 <Justin_R> ... rubric proposes evaluation technique to tease out what matters to evaluator about a method
16:31:54 <Justin_R> ... idea was to present a framework for evaluating did methods re: decentralization
16:32:02 <Justin_R> ... to avoid defining "Decentralization"
16:32:04 <bigbluehat> present+ Benjamin_Young
16:32:39 <Justin_R> ... since TPAC (and conversations at IIW and RWOT in Prague), been formatting and editing what's there (not adding new content) to hand over to the WG
16:33:20 <Justin_R> ... current status: structure is good, need to continue reformatting
16:33:27 <Justin_R> ... groups criteria into 5 categories
16:33:52 <Justin_R> ... initially just a set of questions, realized that bunch were governance; feedback from Scott David (UW)
16:34:23 <Justin_R> ... then realized some things aren't about governance
16:34:37 <Justin_R> ... currently nothing on enforcement
16:34:49 <Justin_R> ... didn't want to add new content even though a category is there
16:35:24 <Justin_R> ... in decentralized systems, enforcement gets baked close to operation; eg proof of work in ledgers
16:35:34 <Justin_R> ... will need significant work to tease that out
16:36:12 <Justin_R> ... Daniel Hardman put in a lot of work; many criteria that are useful aren't about decentralization
16:36:35 <Justin_R> ... these important things aren't included in the rubric document; suggest rubric for security and for privacy
16:36:53 <sumita> present+
16:37:07 <Justin_R> ... decentralization is not the only thing we should be considering
16:37:09 <sumita> q+
16:37:22 <burn> ack JoeAndrieu
16:37:22 <Zakim> JoeAndrieu, you wanted to discuss Tuesday
16:37:44 <Justin_R> ... should be ready by F2F, whether a final google doc or a PDF from rebooting
16:37:51 <burn> ack sumita
16:38:15 <burn> q+ to ask about separate rubrics or same doc
16:38:16 <Justin_R> sumita: would love to help with security and privacy; if you have literature on that, please email
16:38:51 <Justin_R> JoeAndrieu: the only thing written about that is why we're doing a rubric so just read the existing one; we kept a lot of proposed criteria that were cut into an appendix
16:38:57 <burn> ack burn
16:38:57 <Zakim> burn, you wanted to ask about separate rubrics or same doc
16:39:37 <Justin_R> ... chairs, consider additional rubrics as part of WG output?
16:39:46 <Justin_R> burn: (joe is thinking about second document)
16:39:57 <Justin_R> ... WG approval needed to publish non-normative document
16:40:13 <Justin_R> ... start writing something, group can look at it and decide whether we want to publish it (as a note)
16:40:32 <sumita> no, sorry
16:40:42 <Justin_R> JoeAndrieu: putting a draft together at RWOT?
16:40:51 <Justin_R> ... still might be worth it
16:40:58 <Justin_R> ... we should just start writing
16:41:22 <Justin_R> ... security and privacy should be separate work items
16:41:32 <Justin_R> burn: we have existing rubric as a charter item, we should focus on that for now
16:41:37 <Justin_R> ... make sure we continue progressing that
16:42:01 <Justin_R> ... happy new year!
16:42:30 <ivan> Topic: introductions
16:42:33 <Justin_R> ... first time on the call?
16:42:59 <Justin_R> [Wayne Chang?]: active in DIF, chair of claims and credentials
16:43:17 <Justin_R> ... looking at taxonomies for different groups; best practices for DIDs
16:43:26 <Justin_R> ... have DID and VC parser implementations
16:43:30 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:43:30 <Zakim> Present: burn, ivan, identitywoman, dlongley, Tom_S___USAA_, chriswinc, markus_sabadello, Irene__Jolocom_, JoeAndrieu, drummond, Orie, dmitriz, Justin_R, ken, yancy, selfissued,
16:43:34 <Zakim> ... agropper, joel, jonathan_holt, phila, ChristopherA, manu, Benjamin_Young, sumita
16:43:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see SamSmith, phila, sumita, joel, selfissued, dmitriz, Orie, drummond, ken, Justin_R, dbuc, Irene__Jolocom_, JoeAndrieu, bigbluehat, rhiaro, hadleybeeman, Travis,
16:43:34 <Zakim> ... jfishback, ChristopherA, dlehn, dlongley, manu, yancy, deiu, tzviya, burn, Tom_S___USAA_, identitywoman, markus_sabadello, chriswinc, jonathan_holt, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan
16:43:47 <ivan> present+ wayne
16:45:06 <Justin_R> Irene: been on since December, still learning
16:45:33 <Justin_R> [Pamela Dingle]: director of identity standards @ MS, has attended before
16:45:34 <Irene__Jolocom_> Irene Adamski
16:46:00 <Justin_R> identitywoman: work for wireline part-time, decentralized network blockchain thing
16:46:05 <Justin_R> ... official rep to W3C
16:46:12 <Justin_R> ... to solve this challenge
16:46:18 <dbuc> "Decentralized network blockchain thing" - aren't we all :)
16:46:27 <Justin_R> @dbuc nope :P
16:46:30 <burn> Topic: Other non-Rec Track documents (Primers?, Others?)
16:46:36 <dbuc> You're just jelly
16:46:42 <Justin_R> @dbuc still, no
16:46:53 <manu> s/"Decentralized network blockchain thing" - aren't we all :)//
16:46:55 <burn> https://github.com/WebOfTrustInfo/rwot10-buenosaires/tree/master/topics-and-advance-readings
16:46:58 <manu> s/@dbuc nope :P//
16:47:06 <manu> s/You're just jelly//
16:47:14 <manu> s/@dbuc still, no//
16:47:20 <JoeAndrieu> q+
16:47:46 <Justin_R> burn: question: should we have a primer? could be very short for people who don't want to read the whole spec
16:47:55 <Justin_R> q+ on primer
16:48:02 <burn> q?
16:48:04 <burn> ack JoeAndrieu
16:48:27 <Justin_R> JoeAndrieu: we're talking about 2 different documents, long and short version
16:48:41 <Justin_R> ... RWOT put together a bunch of primers for people who want to get up to speed and dive in
16:48:55 <Justin_R> ... slightly different mandate for a WG primer
16:49:05 <manu> q+ to note that it might not be a different mandate... see them as the same thing.
16:49:13 <Justin_R> ... should the WG publish its own primer?
16:49:31 <Justin_R> burn: was not asking for help of RWOT primer, WG would come up with its own
16:49:32 <burn> ack Justin_R
16:49:32 <Zakim> Justin_R, you wanted to comment on primer
16:49:59 <manu> Justin_R: Is any material that is a Primer more suited for an abstract on the standards docs? As opposed to a formalized document.
16:50:06 <burn> q+ to respond to justin
16:50:09 <manu> Justin_R: There are other ways to communicate that type of material.
16:50:10 <burn> ack manu
16:50:10 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note that it might not be a different mandate... see them as the same thing.
16:50:26 <Justin_R> manu: +1 to justin, if we do have a few things that do a great job they should be in the abstract/intro
16:50:54 <Justin_R> ... don't know if I agree that what we're trying to do with RWOT is that different; nuance might be important; ideally we're introducing people to basic concept
16:51:04 <Justin_R> ... I'd imagine we don't want two different documents at the end
16:51:22 <Justin_R> ... primer should be able to be boiled down into intro; when you have multiple docs, it's not as effective
16:51:31 <Justin_R> ... as opposed to point everyone to same entry document
16:51:38 <Justin_R> +1 to "entry document" concept
16:51:45 <burn> ack burn
16:51:45 <Zakim> burn, you wanted to respond to justin
16:51:53 <Justin_R> ... does not assume deep technical knowledge
16:52:20 <Justin_R> burn: I've been in that position before; strong believer in readable specs, including information for non-technical people or non-detailed technical people
16:52:37 <Justin_R> ... what's partially sold me on a separate primer is the fact that the introduction is unlikely to have an example of the syntax
16:53:05 <Justin_R> ... RWOT primer does a great job of this; shows DID, DID document, points to spec for details
16:53:21 <burn> q?
16:53:25 <Justin_R> ... ^-- not as chair
16:53:28 <JoeAndrieu> q+
16:53:30 <sumita> +1
16:53:30 <drummond> q+
16:53:31 <phila> +1 to burn
16:53:32 <burn> ack JoeAndrieu
16:53:37 <markus_sabadello> q+
16:53:47 <Justin_R> JoeAndrieu: fully agree, if we have a concise intro it should be in the spec
16:54:03 <Justin_R> ... but main reason is where the moral authority lies; RWOT vs. WG could be different
16:54:22 <Justin_R> ... context might be different between two communities and engagement in the communities
16:54:25 <burn> ack drummond
16:54:27 <Justin_R> ... both don't have to be solved in the same chunk of work
16:54:44 <Justin_R> drummond: strong supporter of having a really clear primer that is less technical than the spec
16:55:30 <Justin_R> ... subject of DIDs seems simple but is relatively deep; been working on other materials to explain it
16:55:35 <burn> ack markus_sabadello
16:55:46 <Justin_R> ... much of that could go in a deeper primer
16:56:02 <Justin_R> markus_sabadello: topic of HTTP Range 14 [??] problem for DIDs
16:56:15 <Justin_R> ... whether the DID identifies a real-world subject or a DID document
16:56:25 <Justin_R> ... sometimes it's both, sometiems it's one or the other for cleanliness
16:56:31 <Justin_R> ... might seem academic but it impacts topics
16:56:39 <Justin_R> ... impacts whether DID is URL or URI
16:56:44 <Justin_R> ... impacts resolution
16:56:46 <Justin_R> ... impacts metadata
16:57:03 <Justin_R> ... spent time a year ago dicussing this trying to explain this topic, could be a note that we work on
16:57:34 <Justin_R> burn: chairs just wanted ideas for what's appropriate as notes for a group
16:57:40 <Justin_R> ... but someone needs to write something
16:57:49 <markus_sabadello> Google doc written last year ago about httpRange-14 and DIDs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gSUP9DEp7IO8jyNDsVnC-7Ed6PjbMRxl89nGYUoWoeI/ (could potentially become a WG Note)
16:57:59 <Justin_R> ... would be non-standards track document
16:58:19 <Justin_R> ... not official but at least prepared by people who should know
16:58:47 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:58:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/07-did-minutes.html ivan
16:58:50 <Justin_R> ... chairs will follow up with call details
16:58:57 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
16:58:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been burn, ivan, identitywoman, dlongley, Tom_S___USAA_, chriswinc, markus_sabadello, Irene__Jolocom_, JoeAndrieu, drummond, Orie, dmitriz,
16:59:00 <Zakim> ... Justin_R, ken, yancy, selfissued, agropper, joel, jonathan_holt, phila, ChristopherA, manu, Benjamin_Young, sumita, wayne
16:59:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:59:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/07-did-minutes.html Zakim
16:59:02 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:59:02 <ken> ken has left #did
16:59:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #did
16:59:16 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:59:16 <RRSAgent> I see no action items