16:03:44 RRSAgent has joined #tt 16:03:44 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/12/05-tt-irc 16:03:50 Zakim has joined #tt 16:03:58 rrsagent, make logs public 16:04:10 zakim, this will be TTML 16:04:10 ok, nigel 16:04:20 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 16:04:41 Present: Atsushi, Gary, Andreas, Nigel 16:04:45 Chair: Nigel, Gary 16:05:05 Regrets: Cyril, Glenn 16:05:11 scribe: nigel 16:05:30 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/81 16:05:40 Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/12/05-tt-irc 16:05:46 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2019/11/21-tt-minutes.html 16:05:47 Topic: This meeting 16:06:48 Nigel: Agenda for today 16:06:56 Gary: I will give an update in the WebVTT section 16:08:02 Nigel: Any other business? 16:08:06 group: no other business 16:08:19 Topic: (Re-)join to timed text WG after charter renewal 16:08:48 Atsushi: Since TTWG Charter renewed with additional deliverables, that means the past participants of TTWG 16:09:01 .. list is reset and everyone needs to rejoin the WG. Actually I also am not sure what is happening. 16:09:19 .. Some may need to leave and rejoin the WG. The list of participants page still lists the old Charter participants. 16:09:38 .. Please check the status page of the WG and check your company is listed. 16:09:50 -> https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/34314/status TTWG Status Page 16:10:04 q+ 16:10:05 Atsushi: You need to join within 45 days of charter renewal. Please don't forget! 16:10:30 Andreas: It's important to send an email out with this information because a lot of members of the group do not join the calls. 16:10:56 Atsushi: Yes, actually I wonder how to write these points. Let me seek some more information and explain what to do 16:11:02 .. if anyone has any troubles. 16:12:11 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/86 Action for Atsushi to send the email 16:12:40 Present+ Pierre 16:13:36 Topic: IMSC 1.2 FPWD Next steps 16:14:02 Nigel: Now we have published IMSC 1.2 FPWD (thank you!), just want to check in about next steps. 16:14:31 .. I think we have one or two spec issues and I need to contact the liaisons as listed in the Charter to request wide review. 16:14:38 .. Is there anything else we need to do? 16:15:25 group: nothing more 16:17:55 Nigel: I'll send something based on previous WR requests, highlighting the main new feature. 16:18:05 Pierre: Happy to review the wording. 16:18:11 Nigel: Thank you, I'll take you up on that. 16:19:10 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/87 Request WR for IMSC 1.2 ttwg#87 16:19:46 Nigel: There are open issues on IMSC 1.2 that have not necessarily been resolved. 16:20:02 Pierre: I think many of those could be closed as not an issue - we may not have the right quorum right now. 16:20:14 .. My recommendation would be to close without action for most of them. 16:20:58 Nigel: I'll add a comment to the issues and note that if more discussion is needed for those remaining open then I 16:21:05 .. will allocate time for them during next week's call. 16:21:11 Pierre: Take issue 493 for instance. 16:21:33 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/493 itts:forcedDisplay should apply to image element in image profile imsc#493 16:21:54 Pierre: I think it is not necessary because all images are in div wrappers and forcedDisplay applies to div, so we can 16:22:08 .. fix as no change, at least for now, or defer to a future version. 16:22:49 Nigel: These are not urgent but I will signal the desire to cover them next week. 16:22:53 Pierre: The other one is 506 16:23:05 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/506 Potential semantic conflict between ttp:profile and ttp:contentProfiles. imsc#506 16:23:19 Pierre: I think where Glenn and I ended up is that this is complicated and it's up to the user and we're talking about 16:23:42 .. corner cases so there's nothing here to do I think. 16:24:09 Nigel: I was concerned from this thread that there may end up being some kind of ambiguity in the TTML2 algorithm 16:24:17 .. that isn't really dealt with. I'm not sure if that's the case. 16:24:34 Pierre: On that point the TTML2 algorithm is very clear. What is not clear is whether or not there is a normative 16:24:43 .. requirement for validators to highlight inconsistencies. 16:24:47 Nigel: Such as? 16:25:11 Pierre: Such as having an effective processor profile that does not support features that are permitted in the effective 16:25:15 .. content profile. 16:25:21 Nigel: Crumbs! 16:25:42 Pierre: The algorithms for getting those effective profiles are completely unambiguous. A smart validator might want 16:26:12 .. to flag inconsistencies, such as the mismatch between processor and content profiles. 16:26:26 .. My conclusion is the algorithm is clear but what is not clear is what if any action a validator should take. 16:26:48 .. For example if you signal a content profile that is inconsistent with the processor profile but the document doesn't 16:27:01 .. include any of the offending features, is that bad? Maybe it's intended. Hard to tell. 16:28:12 Nigel: Right and we don't have any requirement in the spec that says that if contentProfiles is present and says, say, 16:28:35 .. Image profile, then the processorProfiles must minimally include something requiring support for Image profile. 16:28:55 Pierre: Yes, we had a long discussion about that. Instead what we say is the list of profiles that the processor must 16:29:02 .. support, and it's up to the author not to do anything stupid. 16:29:18 Nigel: Any evidence about how much of a real world issue this is? 16:29:24 Pierre: Fairly confident it is zero. 16:29:42 .. The spec recommends a particular style of signalling, and if people follow that then they won't run into this issue. 16:29:50 .. The risk is minimal to non-existing. 16:30:02 .. The vast majority of users will just signal one or the other, Text or Image and that's it. 16:30:17 Nigel: Thanks for helping clarify that. 16:30:36 Pierre: Another one in this category is 492 16:30:53 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/492 tts:position should be permitted in image profile imsc#492 16:31:14 Pierre: This is another one where I think we should defer or close as won't fix. 16:31:22 Nigel: Right, makes sense to me. 16:31:41 .. Again, if there were some real driver or demand for this from the user community I would suggest revisiting. 16:32:00 Pierre: Basically every single Image based IMSC document is a bunch of divs with smpteBackground and that's it. 16:32:24 .. I think folks have been happy just using origin and extent and smpte:backgroundImage. 16:32:46 Nigel: Okay let's aim to get a decision and closure on these by the end of next week's meeting. 16:32:50 Pierre: Thanks 16:33:12 Nigel: Anything else on IMSC 1.2? 16:33:17 Pierre: No, thanks for getting it out the door. 16:33:20 Nigel: Seconded. 16:33:24 Topic: WebVTT 16:33:49 -> https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues/464 [IR] entities test is failing webvtt#464 16:33:52 Gary: Pretty short update. We recently received a PR for vtt.js that updates how escaping is done and this means that 16:34:13 .. the HTML entities are now fully escaped properly and show up properly. So the entities test now has enough 16:34:26 .. implementations. Slowly, but we're making progress on completing the outstanding issues on the IR. 16:35:02 Nigel: I see there are lots of open PRs and issue on WebVTT. 16:35:18 Gary: I need to go through those. They've been sitting around and noone has complained so they're good to merge by now. 16:35:34 Nigel: Are any of them substantive? 16:35:37 Gary: I believe so, yes. 16:35:57 Topic: ADPT 16:36:17 Nigel: This is the AD Profiles of TTML2. I just wanted to update the group on two things. 16:36:35 .. First, the repo has been transferred into TTWG. There are a bunch of issues I need to handle editorially, and some 16:36:38 .. pull requests too. 16:37:25 .. I'm planning to spend some concentrated effort on this hopefully in January so we can get to FPWD. 16:38:01 .. Next on my queue after that would be the TTML Live Extensions modules. 16:38:48 Topic: AOB - Profile Designator for IMSC 1.2 Image Profile 16:39:02 Pierre: This is related to an issue Cyril opened, which is that the change in profile designators was not listed in 16:39:09 .. the substantive change section. Issue 508. 16:39:23 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/508 Change in profile designators missing from Substantive Change section imsc#508 16:39:36 Pierre: Cyril is correct that the substantive changes section needs to be updated, that's clear. 16:39:56 .. It's also clear that the Text profile feature designator has to be revved up because some features were added to the 16:40:04 .. text profile. But nothing happened to the Image Profile. 16:40:21 .. I think what probably happened is I revved it up in anticipation of changes to Image Profile but no changes were 16:40:38 .. actually made. So I think we should leave the Image profile designator the same, 1.1, or add some text to say the 16:40:47 .. effective profile designator has not been changed. 16:41:08 .. I can see how revving up with no change would be confusing but equally not revving up would be confusing. 16:41:16 .. We should fix it quickly if we're going to change it. 16:41:31 .. As a data point, if we had the profiles in two separate documents the Image document would not have changed 16:41:43 .. so the profile designator would not have changed. I think that's the technically correct solution. 16:42:50 Nigel: I think there's no reason we can't address this next publication. In the meantime please could you add an 16:43:03 .. editor's note to the profile designators section in the ED that this issue exists? 16:43:25 Pierre: Alright, and I'll create a separate issue for tracking this. 16:43:43 .. The issue will be about whether or not the designators should change given the lack of substantive change to the profile. 16:43:49 Nigel: Makes sense, thank you. 16:44:10 Nigel: Any instant views from the group on this question? 16:44:16 group: [no instant views] 16:44:28 Nigel: That's an interesting question, let's have a think about it. 16:45:57 Pierre: I plan to issue a PR shortly to address imsc#495 and imsc#508. 16:46:01 Nigel: Thanks for the head-up. 16:46:29 Topic: Meeting close 16:46:40 Nigel: We've completed our agenda. Thanks everyone! [adjourns meeting] 16:46:45 rrsagent, make minutes 16:46:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/05-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:50:12 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:50:15 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:50:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/12/05-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:03:50 atai2 has left #tt 18:27:57 Zakim has left #tt