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14:46:37 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
14:46:37 <ivan> Meeting: DID Working Group Telco
14:46:37 <ivan> Chair: burn
14:46:37 <ivan> Date: 2019-10-15
14:46:37 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-did-wg/2019Oct/0008.html
14:46:37 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-10-15:https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-did-wg/2019Oct/0008.html
14:56:36 <brent> brent has joined #did
14:56:58 <brent> present+
14:57:04 <ivan> chair: brent
14:57:08 <ivan> present+
14:58:33 <ivan> present+ jfishback
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15:00:30 <manu> present+
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15:00:50 <phila> present+
15:01:29 <ivan> present+ orie
15:01:33 <phila> q+
15:01:41 <ivan> present+ TallTed
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15:02:32 <ivan> present+ dmitriz
15:02:40 <phila> q-
15:02:41 <markus_sabadello> present+
15:02:41 <brent> scribe+ ken
15:02:41 <ken> scribe: ken
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15:02:53 <ivan> present+ ken
15:03:01 <ahripak> present+
15:03:04 <ken> phila: F2f?
15:03:18 <ken> brent: We can discuss what we have so far.
15:03:25 <ivan> present+ markus_sabadello
15:03:26 <rhiaro> present+
15:03:36 <Justin_R> present+
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15:03:44 <ken> ... Agenda items?
15:03:48 <Orie> present+
15:04:02 <ivan> present+ ahripak
15:04:03 <ken> ... Accept previous meeting minutes.
15:04:16 <SamSmith> SamSmith has joined #did
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15:04:23 <JoeAndrieu> present+
15:04:39 <ken> selfissued: Can we talk about #67?
15:04:47 <gannan> present+
15:04:53 <ivan> present+ SamSmith
15:04:55 <ken> brent: Yes
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15:05:14 <ken> Topic: Introductions
15:05:28 <dmitriz> present+
15:05:31 <ken> Orie: I'm from Transmute
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15:05:36 <yancy> present+
15:05:44 <dezell> dezell has joined #did
15:05:48 <ken> Justin_R: New to this call, Justin Richter
15:05:58 <agropper> present+
15:06:02 <joel> joel has joined #did
15:06:16 <ivan> present+ yancy
15:06:21 <JoeAndrieu> present+
15:06:22 <ken> joel Hartshorn: Will be officially joining the group.
15:06:26 <joel> present+
15:06:54 <ken> Topic: Face to Face
15:06:54 <drummond> drummond has joined #did
15:06:59 <drummond> present+
15:07:06 <ken> brent: Last week of Jan in London.
15:07:16 <drummond> Will the sun be shining?
15:07:21 <ken> ... Arrangements are not finalized yet.
15:08:04 <ken> selfissued: I am trying to find MS space.
15:08:52 <agropper> dialed in from 617
15:09:05 <ken> ... I have not located any yet
15:09:20 <ken> brent: Please use IRC to queue
15:09:46 <manu> +1 to accept previous meetings minutes.
15:09:53 <drummond> +1
15:09:55 <ken> ... Anyone opposed to accepting previous meeting minutes.
15:10:02 <ken> ... Accepted.
15:10:03 <ivan> topic: meeting minutes
15:10:03 <ivan> resolved: last week's minutes accepted
15:10:10 <manu> +1 to take that out of our agenda line up :)
15:10:20 <ivan> Topic: assigned unassigned issues
15:10:41 <brent> q?
15:10:44 <ken> manu: remaining unassigned issues were assigned to drummond and markus
15:10:54 <Orie> no objections
15:10:58 <ken> ... Orie, I assigned your issue to you.
15:11:09 <drummond> @manu: I want to ask you about those editorial issues because I could not find the ones you assigned to me. We can discuss that offline.
15:11:09 <ivan> Topic: issues
15:11:15 <ken> brent: Let's start with #5
15:11:16 <ivan> Subtopic: context hosting
15:11:25 <manu> https://github.com/w3c/did-spec/issues/5
15:11:30 <ivan> q+
15:11:34 <manu> q+ to provide some input on what we did in VCWG.
15:11:37 <ken> ... Opinions?
15:11:39 <brent> ack ivan
15:12:03 <ken> ivan: There are two issues. Where and what URL.
15:12:38 <dezell> present+
15:12:39 <ken> ... The usual place is w3.org/s/...
15:12:42 <brent> q?
15:13:14 <phila> s/\/s\//\/ns\//
15:13:17 <ken> ... I propose we use the same method. The document can be stored elsewhere and have a redirect.
15:13:29 <brent> ack manu
15:13:29 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to provide some input on what we did in VCWG.
15:13:35 <manu> https://w3c.github.io/vc-data-model/#example-1-a-simple-example-of-a-verifiable-credential
15:13:39 <ken> manu: We had this discussion in VCWG.
15:13:55 <manu> https://www.w3.org/2018/credentials/v1
15:14:03 <ken> ... We decided to not use ns because of the emotional response.
15:14:22 <ken> ... There is not a redirect.
15:14:33 <ivan> q+
15:14:35 <phila> q+
15:14:37 <rhiaro> q+ to ask if we can please *not* put it on gh pages because content negotiation doesn't work
15:14:38 <dmitriz> q+
15:14:41 <ken> ... During working drafts we redirected to the github updated version.
15:14:45 <brent> q?
15:15:12 <ken> ... The other thing was say in the spec that we will not change the context after the spec is finalized.
15:15:28 <ken> ... This allows caching or hardcoding by developers.
15:15:53 <ken> ... I hope we can use the same approach.
15:15:54 <brent> ack ivan
15:16:13 <manu> q+ to note why we prefer date space.
15:16:23 <manu> q+ to note why we prefer date space (if it's even useful).
15:16:27 <ken> ivan: Whether we use ns or not, I find the date space more difficult personally.
15:16:45 <ken> ... Redirect to github during development is my intention also.
15:17:06 <ken> ... After we go to recommended, it should be fixed.
15:17:30 <mike-lodder> mike-lodder has joined #did
15:17:31 <ken> ... I don't know if we need to discuss versioning right now.
15:17:36 <brent> ack phila
15:17:47 <Orie> meeting crashed for me
15:17:49 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Persistence Peristence policy
15:17:57 <ken> phila: The discusion re: persistant URL is of interest to me.
15:17:57 <manu> s/meeting crashed for me//
15:18:21 <ken> ... The data space may not persist.
15:18:42 <ken> ... Version numbers are problematic.
15:18:42 <mike-lodder> q?
15:18:45 <Justin_R> q+
15:18:54 <brent> ack rhiaro
15:18:54 <Zakim> rhiaro, you wanted to ask if we can please *not* put it on gh pages because content negotiation doesn't work
15:19:14 <ivan> q+
15:19:17 <manu> q+ to note why versioning is important (digital signatures)... doesn't want to spentd too much time there... but it's important.
15:19:23 <ken> rhiaro: I wanted to remind people that having the context on github made actual use difficult.
15:19:27 <brent> ack dmitriz
15:19:41 <Orie> +1 for hosting on github pages
15:19:41 <ken> dmitriz: Can we please host at github with a proper file extension.
15:19:59 <ken> manu: Versioning must be accounted for.
15:20:18 <ken> ... Most problems were with the hosting not the actual developers.
15:20:33 <ken> ... Extensions and Mime types in particular.
15:20:43 <dmitriz> (would like to remind everyone about the writeup / explainer about versioning contexts, over at https://github.com/w3c-ccg/did-spec/pull/272 )
15:20:46 <brent> q?
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15:20:49 <brent> ack manu
15:20:49 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note why we prefer date space. and to note why we prefer date space (if it's even useful). and to note why versioning is important (digital signatures)...
15:20:52 <Zakim> ... doesn't want to spentd too much time there... but it's important.
15:20:57 <ken> ... During development will create a moving target necessarily.
15:21:10 <ken> ... VCWG had the same debates.
15:21:36 <ken> ... Can we summarize where we have consensus?
15:21:46 <ken> brent: Can we wrap up?
15:21:54 <brent> ack Justin_R
15:22:10 <manu> +1 to Justin_R --- yes, this isn't a "purely Linked Data" world we're working in here...
15:22:23 <ken> Justin_R: Some people will see the URLs as just a place for comparing.
15:22:28 <brent> ack ivan
15:22:49 <ken> ivan: Amy confirmed that it can be set up with proper types.
15:22:52 <manu> also -- just to be clear... I'd personally be opposed to /ns/ URL and non-versioned (and we have good reasons for that)... I'll have to see what our corporate position is.
15:23:13 <ken> brent: Let's move discussion to the issue.
15:23:14 <manu> q+ to summarize where I heard consensus.
15:23:22 <brent> ack manu
15:23:22 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to summarize where I heard consensus.
15:23:51 <ken> manu: I think we have consenus around hosting at W3C. Versioning on the github.
15:24:30 <ken> ... No consensus on ns or versioning.
15:24:49 <ken> ... I will summarize in the issue.
15:25:08 <ivan> regrets+ ben
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15:25:25 <kimhd> present+
15:25:45 <ivan> Subtopic: FPWD
15:25:52 <ken> topic: First working draft
15:25:58 <manu> brent - can you explain what a FPWD is?
15:26:09 <phila> q+
15:26:37 <Justin_R> q+ to ask about document structure
15:26:41 <ken> ivan: A First Public Working Draft is the first of a series of drafts at w3.org/...
15:26:44 <TallTed> +1 FPWD at editors' will
15:26:51 <brent> q?
15:26:53 <ken> ... This becomes a reference to the world.
15:27:05 <ken> ... All the drafts will then be accessible.
15:27:13 <ken> ... It starts the IPR process.
15:27:28 <ken> ... Members can review and start any legal process required.
15:27:59 <ken> ... Once this is published we can change our publishing method to quickly publish updates.
15:28:22 <ken> brent: It does not have to reflect consensus.
15:28:50 <markus_sabadello> q+
15:29:01 <brent> ack phila
15:29:02 <manu> I summarized context issue here -- https://github.com/w3c/did-spec/issues/5#issuecomment-542269659
15:29:08 <ken> ivan: It just starts the process. Many changes can occur. This draft is way beyond the normal starting draft.
15:29:52 <ken> phila: In my mind we shouldn't publish a spec working draft until we publish our first use case document.
15:29:54 <brent> ack Justin_R
15:29:54 <Zakim> Justin_R, you wanted to ask about document structure
15:30:10 <manu> q+ to note that ideally we'd publish all docs together... but one of them is ready before the other...
15:30:21 <ken> Justin_R: My qualm is re: document structure. Can we split or add to the document?
15:30:29 <manu> Justin_R, yes, absolutely, we have A LOT of structural flexibility.
15:30:30 <ken> ivan: Yes we can.
15:30:54 <drummond> q+
15:31:04 <ken> Justin_R: Discussion at IIW and DID resolution brought this to my attention.
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15:31:23 <ivan> +1 to markus_sabadello
15:31:26 <dlongley> +1
15:31:29 <Orie> +1
15:31:31 <brent> +1
15:31:33 <manu> +1 to markus_sabadello
15:31:38 <brent> ack markus_sabadello
15:31:51 <drummond> +1
15:31:53 <brent> ack manu
15:31:53 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note that ideally we'd publish all docs together... but one of them is ready before the other...
15:32:02 <ken> markus_sabadello: This first draft would help people know that this is where work is continuing on this topic.
15:32:38 <ken> manu: I agree in principle with Phil, but without firm knowledge of when the other docs will be ready, let's publish the working draft now.
15:32:44 <brent> ack drummond
15:33:14 <ken> drummond: I agree in theory with phil, but I am having trouble referencing the right document.
15:33:41 <brent> q?
15:33:51 <ken> ... In issue #18 regarding resolution should not prevent publishing a working draft.
15:34:19 <manu> +1 to publishing DID Spec FPWD ASAP
15:34:21 <ken> brent: I agree with manu, markus, and drummond. I would really like a working draft now.
15:34:26 <mike-lodder> +1 to publish
15:34:28 <ivan> q+
15:34:30 <ken> ... Anyone opposed?
15:34:38 <SamSmith> +1 to publish
15:34:40 <dlongley> +1 to publish
15:34:43 <ken> +1 to publish
15:34:43 <Orie> +1 to publish
15:34:54 <selfissued> q+
15:34:57 <ken> ivan: We need a formal resolution.
15:35:25 <manu> +1 to using Echidna!
15:35:31 <drummond> +1
15:35:32 <manu> please please please let's use Echidna
15:35:33 <ken> ... Also a formal resolution on tool usage.
15:35:51 <agropper_> +1
15:35:53 <selfissued> There's already a public draft at https://w3c.github.io/did-spec/
15:36:02 <drummond> Understood, Ivan, we appreciate it.
15:36:21 <drummond> Yes, please, make the short name did-spec
15:36:25 <ken> ... And agree that the short name is "DID Specification"
15:36:28 <mike-lodder> as long as we can change it later if needed
15:36:32 <manu> Notes vc-data-model ... alternatives could be dids or did-data-model
15:36:38 <phila> q+ to ask about did-spec
15:36:41 <brent> ack selfissued
15:36:44 <brent> ack ivan
15:36:56 <ken> selfissued: We already have public working draft on github.
15:37:15 <manu> -1 to wait on "resolving issues"... FPWDs don't need group consensus.
15:37:18 <ivan> q+
15:37:24 <ken> ... Until we resolve some fundemental issues, we should publish a working draft.
15:37:25 <drummond> Nice one, rhiaro
15:37:29 <Justin_R> +1 to mike's point
15:37:29 <brent> ack phila
15:37:29 <Zakim> phila, you wanted to ask about did-spec
15:37:34 <ken> ... Consensus is implied.
15:37:44 <brent> ack ivan
15:37:48 <mike-lodder> there might be multiple specs
15:37:57 <ken> phila: Why "DID spec" instead of
15:38:05 <ken> ... "DID"
15:38:21 <ken> ivan: First working draft does not imply consensus.
15:38:29 <drummond> To Phil: first reason is to distinguish between the spec and when you are talking about a DID (as a identifier or a scheme)
15:38:32 <ken> ... There are several recent examples.
15:38:42 <brent> q?
15:38:54 <manu> +1, FPWD does not imply group consensus...
15:39:17 <ken> selfissued: In other groups I was in, we didn't do that until some fundamentals were settled.
15:39:34 <ken> brent: #67
15:40:02 <ivan> Subtopic: Key representation, #67
15:40:29 <ivan> -> https://github.com/w3c/did-spec/issues/67 Issue #67
15:40:31 <TallTed> previous: https://github.com/w3c/did-spec/issues/68
15:40:31 <TallTed> now: https://github.com/w3c/did-spec/issues/67
15:40:45 <ken> selfissued: As one of the assignees, I have taken the view that key types that the json web key is already a standard.
15:40:48 <manu> q+ to note that we don't have enough examples, nor requirements being discussed in the issue, lets get those in, and schedule time for discussion next week.
15:40:57 <ivan> regrets+ burn
15:41:17 <ken> ... There are other fundamental issues being raised. Keys in the DIDs are being used to check signatures.
15:41:48 <brent> ack manu
15:41:48 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note that we don't have enough examples, nor requirements being discussed in the issue, lets get those in, and schedule time for discussion next week.
15:41:53 <ken> ... These are used by applications, so we should cater to the appliations. It seems that having only one way to do it would increase interop.
15:42:07 <ken> manu: I think we should put in a couple of examples.
15:42:28 <ken> ... We have requirements that are hinted at, but are not being written down.
15:42:57 <ken> ... Other views need to be clearly articulated in the issue discussions.
15:43:29 <markus_sabadello> q+
15:43:30 <selfissued> q+
15:43:44 <ken> ... Please add your views to the conversation.
15:44:06 <mike-lodder> agreed
15:44:12 <ken> ... We need a full hour to discuss this.
15:44:12 <brent> ack markus_sabadello
15:44:45 <ken> markus_sabadello: There needs to be more discussion about this. There is the linked data signature. There is multibase.
15:44:48 <mike-lodder> I'm concerned we are trying to force an encoding when we should allow the encoding in value
15:44:56 <mike-lodder> +1 markus_sabadello
15:45:09 <manu> I agree with mike-lodder
15:45:14 <brent> ack selfissued
15:45:18 <manu> (based on the requirements we've heard)
15:45:18 <ken> ... In DID resolution, an idea that an option could be passed to the resolver to request keys in a particular format.
15:45:39 <dlongley> q+
15:46:03 <markus_sabadello> q+
15:46:03 <ken> selfissued: Dave wrote in the issue, that the keys are used by the DID resolver not an application level thing.
15:46:06 <dmitriz> q+ to respond
15:46:11 <dmitriz> q-
15:46:15 <markus_sabadello> q-
15:46:18 <brent> ack dlongley
15:46:37 <ken> dlongley: The keys may not be verified by the resolver. Some keys can be bound to an application.
15:46:39 <ivan> present+ mike-lodder
15:46:50 <markus_sabadello> +1 to dlongley, keys in a DID Document may or may not be used by a method and the resolver.
15:46:58 <ken> ... Some keys can be used by the resolver, others by applications.
15:47:07 <ivan> Topic: PR-s
15:47:18 <manu> https://github.com/w3c/did-spec/pull/71
15:47:23 <ken> manu: From easy to most difficult.
15:47:40 <ken> ... This is a language clarification PR.
15:47:57 <ken> ... In a few days I will merge it, unless there are objections.
15:48:15 <ken> ... The other PRs all have discussion.
15:48:17 <manu> https://github.com/w3c/did-spec/pull/66
15:48:38 <ivan> Subtopic: Make "id" optional for services and public keys. #66
15:49:18 <ken> markus_sabadello: This PR is about making identifiers optional. Currently they are required. There is discussion about ids.
15:49:55 <ken> ... This is about making did optional so you can have service endpoints without dids being assigned.
15:50:13 <ken> ... This gives did methods more flexibility.
15:50:18 <dlongley> selfissued: in short, a DID Document may express many different keys for many different intended purposes, only some subset may be used to establish control over modifying the DID Document itself
15:50:21 <dlongley> (and would therefore be consumed in some fashion by the DID network/ledger according to the DID method)
15:50:41 <ken> manu: In some discussions, Mike suggested we use kid.
15:51:11 <ken> markus_sabadello: I think that discussion is orthoganal to this discussion.
15:51:23 <ivan> s/orthoganal/orthogonal/
15:51:24 <ken> manu: Does anyone object to making them optional?
15:51:44 <drummond> No objection
15:51:49 <Orie> No objection
15:51:54 <dmitriz> q+
15:52:10 <brent> ack dmitriz
15:52:16 <ken> dmitriz: I have a clarifying question.
15:52:47 <markus_sabadello> q+
15:52:49 <ken> ... For service endpoints, if type is optional and id is optional, we could end up with neither.
15:52:56 <brent> ack markus_sabadello
15:53:01 <ken> ... I think we need one or the other at least.
15:53:20 <ken> markus_sabadello: With this PR we are not proposing optional type.
15:53:29 <ken> manu: Do you still object?
15:53:33 <ken> dmitriz: No.
15:53:56 <ken> manu: We will move forward on merging this PR after minor cleanup.
15:54:11 <ken> manu: We have three categories of PRs.
15:54:21 <ivan> Subtopic: other PR_s
15:54:21 <ken> ... Removing parameters.
15:54:29 <ken> ... Matrix parameters.
15:54:36 <ken> ... Public key formats.
15:55:19 <ken> s/Removing parameters/Removing properties/
15:55:44 <ken> manu: There are three PRs on removing properties.
15:56:05 <ken> ... The arguments to keep them are: Someone may use them.
15:56:07 <ivan> q+
15:56:19 <dmitriz> link to companion issue that summarizes the arguments: https://github.com/w3c/did-spec/issues/65
15:56:26 <markus_sabadello> q+
15:56:40 <ken> ... To counter, just because the are not in the DID spec, does not mean that someone can use them.
15:56:49 <brent> ack ivan
15:57:23 <ken> ivan: dmitriz preempted me. The commonalities should be discussed in general first.
15:57:27 <brent> ack markus_sabadello
15:57:42 <ken> markus_sabadello: I agree that #65 is a great summary.
15:58:01 <TallTed> +1 defer these PRs until resolution of https://github.com/w3c/did-spec/issues/65
15:58:14 <ken> ... Whether the did doc should contain metadata about itself vs about the subject.
15:58:35 <ken> ... The group consensus has been to conflate so far.
15:58:45 <ivan> q+
15:58:49 <drummond> +1 to resolve issue #65 first
15:58:58 <ken> manu: Until ##65 is discussed we will not merge the three issues.
15:59:14 <ken> ivan: Next weeks meeting is not at this time.
15:59:30 <TallTed> 6pm Boston/New York
15:59:39 <ken> selfissued: When is the next meeting?
15:59:51 <ken> brent: 6:00pm EDT.
16:00:12 <ken> ivan: The Webex codes are also different.
16:00:20 <TallTed> member-only post with times/links - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-did-wg/2019Sep/0006.html
16:00:31 <ken> ivan: In two weeks is also different.
16:00:53 <ken> brent: Look at the agenda for times and links.
16:00:58 <drummond> Thanks for the reminder, Ivan.
16:00:59 <manu> thanks all! :)
16:01:02 <Orie> thanks!
16:01:05 <drummond> Thanks Ken!
16:01:10 <ken> brent: End of meeting.
16:01:17 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/10/15-did-minutes.html ivan
16:01:18 <ivan> zakim, bye
16:01:18 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:01:18 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:01:18 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been brent, ivan, jfishback, selfissued, manu, dlongley, phila, orie, TallTed, dmitriz, markus_sabadello, ken, ahripak, rhiaro,
16:01:18 <Zakim> Zakim has left #did
16:01:21 <Zakim> ... Justin_R, JoeAndrieu, gannan, SamSmith, yancy, agropper, joel, drummond, dezell, kimhd, mike-lodder