04:32:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #Chinese-Web-en
04:32:43 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-irc
04:33:02 <nigel> Meeting: Joint Chinese IG and TTWG meeting
04:33:10 <nigel> Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-irc
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04:34:52 <Michael_Li> Michael_Li has joined #chinese-web-en
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04:36:41 <xiaoqian> zhiqiang: [going through the agenda]
04:36:46 <xiaoqian> scribe: xiaoqian
04:37:05 <xiaoqian> topic: Bullet Chatting (joint session with TTWG)
04:37:06 <gkatsev> gkatsev has joined #chinese-web-en
04:37:39 <xiaoqian> Song: co-editor of the proposal, another editor is from Bilibili
04:37:47 <xiaoqian> ... we also invited the experts from Niconico
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04:38:45 <xiaoqian> ... 1. difference from between subtitle and bulletchatting
04:39:28 <xiaoqian> ... subtitle is usually coming from words of the actors
04:39:40 <xiaoqian> ... or description about a certain scene
04:40:04 <xiaoqian> ... bulletchatting is more about the comment incentive by the content of the video
04:40:26 <xiaoqian> ... to express the emotion of the audience in real time
04:40:42 <xiaoqian> ... to share the feeling about the same scene of the video
04:41:14 <xiaoqian> ... users can send out the bullet chat at the same time as they watch the video
04:41:37 <xiaoqian> ... subtitle is usually displayed in 1-3 lines
04:41:48 <xiaoqian> ... the display area is fixed in the video
04:42:26 <xiaoqian> ... bullet chat can show up in any row of the video area
04:42:43 <xiaoqian> ... and it's usually moving from one side to another side
04:43:22 <xiaoqian> nigel: regarding the performance, what's the difference between the two?
04:43:39 <xiaoqian> ... especially the text overlap
04:43:57 <xiaoqian> ... it's not technical limit, more editorially
04:44:24 <xiaoqian> ... the present mode
04:44:29 <nigel> s/performance/presentation
04:44:40 <xfq> xfq has joined #chinese-web-en
04:44:46 <xiaoqian> ... subtitle is usually static
04:44:51 <nigel> s/... the present mode/Song: the present mode
04:45:24 <atai> atai has joined #Chinese-Web-en
04:45:31 <xiaoqian> ... bullet chat can interact with the users
04:45:41 <xiaoqian> ... more dynamic
04:46:04 <xiaoqian> ... text direction
04:46:27 <xiaoqian> ... TTML aims to define a format for subtitle
04:46:56 <xiaoqian> ... it describe the show-time, the display style, the position and the content
04:47:36 <xiaoqian> ... while bullet chat, is to help implement bullet chat in the Web
04:48:47 <xiaoqian> ... we would like to have it as an HTML element, it'd be nice if it can help define the attributes and events about the style, the position, time, and content
04:49:50 <xiaoqian> xfq: it tries to describe the attributes and events to help implement those use cases that are not covered by TTML
04:51:15 <xiaoqian> atai: from the current statics, which spec are you targeting when you analysis the gap? the HTML spec?
04:51:28 <Bert> Bert has joined #chinese-web-en
04:51:43 <xiaoqian> ... what kind of applications do you think will be the major vendor for this API or element?
04:52:09 <xiaoqian> Song: not sure yet, need more conversations with the other companies
04:52:37 <xiaoqian> ... but there are hundreds Webapps companies working on bullet chat in China and Japan
04:53:09 <xiaoqian> ... with very different implementation
04:53:21 <xiaoqian> ... we may not be about to cover all the use cases
04:53:46 <xiaoqian> ... would like to design an API or element which can be extensive
04:53:56 <xiaoqian> ... f.ex., the AI masking cases
04:54:31 <xiaoqian> atai: whether HTML element is necessary may be a different question
04:54:35 <xiaoqian> Song: agree
04:54:52 <xiaoqian> Glen: so it can also be a JS library
04:55:09 <xiaoqian> ... a lib including the queue objects
04:55:18 <xiaoqian> ... have you considered that option?
04:55:47 <xiaoqian> Song: some of the companies may be implementing with JS lib
04:56:32 <xiaoqian> ... but it must be with some limits so they are asking for an extra standardised API
04:57:19 <xiaoqian> Glen: A JS lib can be a good starting point if it gets consensus from the other players
04:58:21 <xiaoqian> Song: our co editor and my engineers team really hope to standardise the bullet chat
04:58:48 <xiaoqian> ... but from the discussion this week, we also see the potential to reuse the current technologies
05:00:12 <xiaoqian> Song: we would like to have an element which describes the control for show area, time, delay, styling
05:00:52 <xiaoqian> @@: if I understand correctly, there is also requirements that are not covered by the VTT and TTML
05:01:15 <xiaoqian> Nigel: animation?
05:01:33 <gkatsev> s/@@/Eric_Carlson/
05:01:44 <xiaoqian> Glen: we have animation, but we would love to hear more requirements for bullet chat
05:01:57 <xiaoqian> ... if both solution are too heavy way
05:02:17 <xiaoqian> ... you can consider a light way of implementation
05:02:51 <xiaoqian> Lin: current limitation is more on performance as they are using CSS and JS
05:03:12 <xiaoqian> ... so they would like to have an API to ease the implementation
05:03:39 <xiaoqian> ... requirements including animation, speed control, font-style
05:03:49 <xiaoqian> ... it's more about how to make things easier
05:04:07 <xiaoqian> atai: thank you for the introduction over the week
05:04:26 <xiaoqian> ... it seems you already have the technology to solve the problem
05:04:42 <xiaoqian> ... what you want now is introperability
05:05:05 <xiaoqian> ... if your application is trying to solve the same problem as VTT and TTML?
05:05:58 <xiaoqian> ... it will be successful to bring the an new format if it can help the implementation easier
05:06:15 <xiaoqian> Glen: it will be helpful to show some demo
05:07:18 <xiaoqian> Song: the problem now is I don't think any developers is using the VTT and TTML to implement it
05:09:02 <xiaoqian> ... next question is about the layout to display  the text
05:09:48 <xiaoqian> ... our point of view is how to display the bullet chat with markup
05:10:17 <xiaoqian> ... what is really needed is the element to represent the bullet chat
05:11:16 <xiaoqian> nigel: when you send the bullet chat, do you send everything to the client? or just the content?
05:12:24 <xiaoqian> xfq: I think there is lots of possibilities in the implementation from different companies
05:12:57 <xiaoqian> Michael_Li: the rendering calculation is done in the client side
05:13:17 <xiaoqian> ... so we need to send all the necessary things
05:13:33 <xiaoqian> ... but we also see potential to improve this implementation
05:14:30 <xiaoqian> nigel: that seems to be an important things to agree on
05:15:18 <nigel> rrsagent, make logs public
05:15:24 <nigel> rrsagent, pointer
05:15:24 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-irc#T05-15-24
05:15:49 <xiaoqian> Song: bilibili also mentioned the key to extent the bullet chat on top of any existing technologies is live transportation
05:16:10 <xiaoqian> ... as one of the important use case is live streaming or live events
05:16:17 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
05:16:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html nigel
05:16:27 <xiaoqian> ... so we need to log the elements in real time
05:17:20 <xiaoqian> ... for the on-demand playback, if User A is watching at 10', and User is watching at 5', both of them can send a comment at the same time
05:17:53 <xiaoqian> ... the system needs to accept the comment and generate the bullet chat in real time
05:18:08 <xiaoqian> ... so when User B arrives at 10'
05:18:22 <xiaoqian> ... he can see User A's comment for 10'
05:19:10 <xiaoqian> [demos from Niconico]
05:19:57 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, make minutes
05:19:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html xiaoqian
05:20:22 <xiaoqian> Michael_Li: demo about the scrolling of content
05:20:44 <xiaoqian> ... users can play art works with bullet chat
05:21:06 <xiaoqian> ... the styling can but sync with the music
05:21:29 <xiaoqian> ... if I slow down the play speeds, the comments also slow down
05:22:17 <xiaoqian> ... you can also do crazy things with unicode letters
05:22:53 <xiaoqian> Eric_Carlson: so you may still need JS to do this kind of effect even you have a file format
05:24:03 <nigel> -> https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm31436903 niconico example
05:24:05 <xfq> description by niconico: https://rentry.co/bgc5h
05:24:26 <xiaoqian> Michael_Li: we would be happy to accept what can be standardised if it's helpful
05:24:38 <xiaoqian> ... not necessary to cover all the use cases
05:25:05 <xiaoqian> Eric_Carlson: so you would like to standardise something that can reduce the JS work
05:25:51 <xiaoqian> ... f.ex., we want to standardised in our work whether it's playing or not, the current time of the element
05:25:52 <naomi> naomi has joined #Chinese-Web-en
05:26:25 <xiaoqian> nigel & plh: it can also be helpful for a11y
05:26:55 <naomi> RRSAgent, make minutes
05:26:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html naomi
05:26:56 <hax> hax has joined #chinese-web-en
05:27:13 <naomi> present+ suzuki, koizuka, Michael_Li
05:27:29 <xiaoqian> nigel: I haven't get a clear idea where the work should happen
05:27:57 <xiaoqian> xfq: it would be helpful to create a communicate channel
05:28:40 <xiaoqian> [another demo about the champion cup of world game]
05:28:54 <xiaoqian> song: there can be different layout of the texts
05:29:22 <nigel> -> https://www.bilibili.com/video/av35199206/?p=3 Bilibili example
05:29:50 <xfq> zhiqiang: maybe we need to set up a regular communication channel to discuss more details in the future
05:30:09 <xfq> xiaoqian: we can create a CG
05:30:24 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
05:30:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html nigel
05:30:41 <xfq> ... invite Chinese IG editors, Japanese companies, timed text people in W3C etc.
05:31:50 <chaals> chaals has joined #chinese-web-en
05:35:19 <nigel> nigel has joined #Chinese-Web-en
05:35:59 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
05:35:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html nigel
05:42:43 <xiaoqian> Bobby: I'm Bobby Tung, from TW, i18n invited expert, working on CLReq
05:43:07 <xiaoqian> ... our last Chinese discussion was 6 yrs ago
05:43:39 <xiaoqian> ... CSS Writing Mode
05:43:58 <xiaoqian> ... moves to CR in this TPAC meeting
05:44:08 <xiaoqian> ... L3
05:44:46 <xiaoqian> ... it started from 2010
05:45:03 <xiaoqian> ... it's very important to CJK and mongolian
05:45:55 <xiaoqian> ... it will be a great help to Japanese, Mongolian, and old books
05:46:13 <xiaoqian> ... [stories about the editors and the spec]
05:47:12 <xiaoqian> ... actually, it comes from the JLReq
05:47:33 <xiaoqian> ... JLReq started from 2007
05:47:55 <xiaoqian> ... Richard contributed a lot the work
05:48:08 <xiaoqian> ... back to 1984-1985
05:48:16 <chaals> chaals has joined #chinese-web-en
05:48:45 <chaals> present+ chaals
05:48:52 <xiaoqian> ... Mac-Aides Pagination-Adobe, want to explore the market in Japan
05:49:12 <Bert> Bert has left #Chinese-Web-en
05:49:25 <xiaoqian> ... the engineers needed help from the publishers on typewriting
05:49:29 <Qingqian_> Qingqian_ has joined #chinese-web-en
05:49:45 <naomi> naomi has joined #Chinese-Web-en
05:49:55 <xiaoqian> ... JIS X from 1993
05:50:38 <xiaoqian> ... so they invited experts from the industry to work on a very detail document for typewritting
05:51:05 <xiaoqian> ... to properly display the Japanese language
05:51:30 <xiaoqian> ... they started from writing mode, Ruby...
05:51:30 <QingAn> QingAn has joined #chinese-web-en
05:51:39 <xiaoqian> xfq: Ruby started from 1998
05:52:07 <xiaoqian> Bobby: 1998, XML was the popular language
05:52:33 <xiaoqian> ... librarian wanted to storage the books digitally
05:53:12 <xiaoqian> ... when it came the HTML5 and CSS3
05:53:45 <xiaoqian> ... in 2014, W3C published the HTML5.0 REC
05:54:11 <xiaoqian> ... dpub-er would like to have a format other than kindle
05:54:45 <xiaoqian> ... publishers have explored lots of possibilities
05:55:14 <xiaoqian> ... then people agreed on solution with the Web technologies
05:55:40 <xiaoqian> ... then we have problem, for the full-width and half-width
05:56:42 <xiaoqian> ... there is some differences in Traditional Chinese and Japanese according to the national standard
05:57:06 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
05:57:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html chaals
05:57:45 <xiaoqian> ... then I realised it's a common problem for the W3C i18n IG, unicode C
05:58:23 <xiaoqian> ... for example, in Japan they changed the name of the year starting from 2019
05:59:24 <xiaoqian> ... there is not document to record the layout differences between the Japanese, TC and SC
05:59:56 <xiaoqian> ... so I wrote down an initial draft of CLReq based on the TC requirements
06:00:34 <xiaoqian> ... we got support from W3C in 2013 to started the CLReq TF
06:00:54 <xiaoqian> ... it's a document with 3 language version
06:01:17 <xiaoqian> ... Yijun knows well about SC and TC
06:01:37 <xiaoqian> ... Eric speaks both Japanese and SC
06:01:52 <xiaoqian> ... Hiding comes from the Singapore community
06:02:23 <xiaoqian> ... fuqiao is also pushing for teleconfs
06:03:10 <chaals> s/Japanese, TC and SC/Japanese, Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese
06:03:27 <xiaoqian> ... one issue is how to avoid hanging punctuation at the beginning of the line
06:04:18 <xiaoqian> ... modern Traditional Chinese in Taiwan is complicated
06:04:55 <xiaoqian> ... some punctuations is acceptable as the starting point in Traditional Chinese
06:05:29 <xiaoqian> ... some experts is keen of the idea to keep every Chinese character in a unique cell
06:05:57 <naomi> naomi has joined #Chinese-Web-en
06:06:08 <xiaoqian> ... Traditional Chinese is actually looser than Japanese in some of these details
06:06:37 <xiaoqian> ... Eric is hosting a Type is beautiful project to identify these kind of features
06:06:50 <xiaoqian> ... another important topic is Ruby
06:07:38 <xiaoqian> ... we usually put a tone on the top of the Romanization
06:08:12 <xiaoqian> ... Xidorn implemented a very unified Ruby in Firefox based on the standard
06:08:49 <xiaoqian> ... while another engineer in Apple implemented Ruby in a very different system
06:09:02 <xiaoqian> ... Eric is collecting requirements on Ruby
06:09:20 <Guest19> Guest19 has joined #chinese-web-en
06:09:32 <xiaoqian> ... we are also exploring the next step of Ruby
06:09:41 <chaals> s/JIS X/JIS X-4051:2004
06:09:48 <atai> -> https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/55 Issue about 360 video
06:09:48 <atai> 
06:10:03 <xiaoqian> ... we hope to collaborate with all of you
06:10:29 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: is there any new requirements in CLReq which is not included in JLRep?
06:10:55 <xiaoqian> Bobby: no, but if you are going to support just Chinese in your system or application
06:11:14 <atai> s|-> https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/55 Issue about 360 video||
06:11:30 <xiaoqian> ... you can implement a looser layout system
06:12:04 <xiaoqian> ... also we want to document the requirements for Chinese
06:13:06 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: anything we can help from the Chinese IG?
06:13:40 <xiaoqian> Bobby: it'd be nice if you can help complete the data in CanIUse about layouts
06:14:54 <xiaoqian> ... please also file bugs to Chromium and Webkit if possible
06:16:24 <xfq> bobby: in the past we can only contact the implementers to feedback on Chinese layout issues
06:16:52 <xfq> ... japan has been pushing electric textbooks recently
06:18:04 <xfq> hax: Chinese reader application developers may also provide input
06:18:13 <xfq> ... like Tencent
06:19:21 <xfq> ... in narrow screens prohibition rules for line start and line end might be different, for example
06:19:30 <xfq> ... currently it's only in some products
06:19:34 <xfq> ... but not in clreq
06:21:06 <xiaoqian> Topic: MiniApp
06:21:30 <xiaoqian> qingqian: would like to give an update of the progress
06:21:39 <xiaoqian> ... explore the possible next step
06:22:07 <xiaoqian> ... if everyone knows the previous discussions, let's skip this part
06:22:42 <xiaoqian> ... we, with the other vendors, have been working on a WhitePaper
06:22:57 <xiaoqian> ... we have received feedback from the Chrome team and the TAG
06:23:19 <xiaoqian> ... breakout presentations this week
06:25:21 <xiaoqian> ... the TAG suggested open the content of MiniApp to allow discovery of the search engine and other systems
06:25:43 <xiaoqian> ... and to collaborate with the other W3C APIs and groups
06:26:27 <xiaoqian> ... in the AC meeting, Judy presented it again to the AC Reps
06:26:48 <xiaoqian> ... TAG provided a formal review comments to MiniApp
06:27:26 <angel> https://www.w3.org/community/miniapps/
06:27:34 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: in the Breakout session, they also suggest us to interoperate with the current APIs, f.ex., the manifest
06:28:13 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: let's focus on the workable items for the next step
06:28:29 <xiaoqian> ... for those things we agree to standardise
06:28:45 <xiaoqian> ... 1. those features needed only by MiniApps
06:29:02 <xiaoqian> ... we can start incubating the proposals
06:29:45 <xiaoqian> ... 2. the existing Web APIs, but with different interface in MiniApps
06:30:04 <xiaoqian> ... we shall submit requirements to W3C
06:30:27 <xiaoqian> ... one issue maybe the MiniApp vendors will think W3C groups are too slow
06:30:54 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: we can take a subset from the existing APIs, f.ex., Manifest
06:30:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html xfq
06:31:17 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: we should be open-minded on this
06:31:34 <xiaoqian> ... as the vendors also need to consider business requirements
06:31:57 <xueyuan> xueyuan has joined #chinese-web-en
06:32:04 <xiaoqian> ... I'm proposing everyone to look at the Manifest API
06:32:16 <xfq> present+ Angel, Anqing, LiLin, Zhiqiang, Qingqian, Xueyuan, Fuqiao, Chunming_, wanming, hax, Bowen, lizheming, yuyin, shouqun, chaals, QingAn
06:32:39 <xfq> present+ xiaoqian
06:32:45 <xiaoqian> ... to see if we can use it as a solution of MiniApp
06:32:56 <xiaoqian> ... another idea is the Web Packaging
06:32:57 <xfq> present+ Yajun_Chen
06:33:15 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: what do you mean by packaging?
06:33:40 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: the structure of the files, how to compress it
06:33:49 <xfq> present+ Eric_Carlson
06:34:14 <xiaoqian> ... I think the current format isn't very dev-friendly
06:34:39 <xfq> present+ bobby
06:34:53 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: so we need to define the format and how to export the package
06:35:37 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: let's also figure out how to collaborate on these APIs
06:36:00 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: Package, Manifest, URI... I think these are important starting points
06:36:12 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: we need someone to take actions
06:36:43 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: I'm also hoping we can open source the implementations
06:37:16 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: TAG commented URI is necessary if MiniApp wants to run on the Web
06:37:55 <xiaoqian> ... as the Web relies on origin
06:38:27 <xiaoqian> ... can we reach consensus on a few important proposal today?
06:39:12 <xiaoqian> Hax:  most vendors also have it, but it's not open to the developers
06:39:31 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: most of them have a private protocol
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06:40:01 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: most of the MiniApps of Baidu works on the browser
06:40:34 <xiaoqian> ... f.ex., domain is smartapp/
06:40:43 <xiaoqian> ... but it's not the ideal implementation
06:41:11 <xiaoqian> ... technically it can be shared to other platform, but with bugs
06:41:41 <xiaoqian> ... we want to use runtime to convert it to a unified URI
06:41:54 <xiaoqian> ... so it can discovered by the Web
06:42:13 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: it will be tricky if we want the apps to be validated
06:42:54 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: we can create a runtime to approve the MiniApps on a white list
06:43:24 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: would like to discuss the detail of URI
06:43:44 <xiaoqian> ... every vendor requires MiniApps to be validated
06:44:37 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: 1. we need a URI for each MiniApp; 2. user can only access those MiniApps validated by the vendor
06:44:47 <xiaoqian> ... this is not conflict
06:44:51 <angel> rrsagent, draft minutes
06:44:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html angel
06:44:59 <angel> rrsagent, make log public
06:45:07 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: most users don't usually visit a MiniApp with URI
06:45:29 <xiaoqian> ... what's the point of having a URI?
06:45:40 <xiaoqian> chumming: to share a MiniApp?
06:45:48 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: makes sense
06:47:09 <xiaoqian> ... f.ex., if an application have published a feature for different MiniApp for different platform, it's going to be using the same URI or a different one?
06:47:14 <atai> atai has left #Chinese-Web-en
06:47:41 <xiaoqian> hax: same domain name with different URIs?
06:48:00 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: similar to open a file in the OS
06:49:02 <xiaoqian> Bowen: will it be possible MiniApp are only kept in a platform?
06:49:20 <xiaoqian> Qingqian & Zhiqiang: it's not practical
06:49:34 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: it may be possible with Web Packaging
06:50:00 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: signature is necessary for every MiniApp
06:50:35 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: signature after a unified URI?
06:50:45 <Roy_> Roy_ has joined #chinese-web-en
06:50:55 <xiaoqian> ... who will be rule maker for the signature?
06:51:03 <xiaoqian> ... now it's decided by the platform
06:51:27 <xiaoqian> hax: it'd be nice to have a unified signature
06:52:03 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: so URI is common requirement for us
06:52:09 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: agree
06:53:19 <xiaoqian> ... we are willing to lead the effer
06:54:51 <xiaoqian> action: Qingqian to talk to other vendors to standardise URI of MiniApp
06:55:08 <xiaoqian> ... next, Manifest
06:55:24 <xiaoqian> action: Zhiqiang to lead the researching of Minifest
06:55:38 <xiaoqian> ... next, packaging
06:56:07 <xiaoqian> action: Alibaba to lead the work on packaging
06:56:22 <xiaoqian> ... next, widget
06:56:46 <xiaoqian> action: Xiaomi to explore the standardising work on Widget
06:57:07 <xiaoqian> ... individual APIs
06:57:29 <xiaoqian> ... every vendor should submit their own requirements to W3C
06:57:57 <xiaoqian> action: fuqiao to help coordinate the single API proposals
06:58:06 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/community/miniapps/
06:58:11 <xiaoqian> ... Chaals helped us to create a CG
06:58:39 <xiaoqian> ... shall we have co-chairs for the CG?
06:59:04 <xiaoqian> [angel explain difference between CG and IG]
06:59:45 <xiaoqian> angel: CG can help us communicate with a boarder community
06:59:56 <chaals> s/boarder/broader
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07:00:49 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: I think another important proposal is lifecycle
07:00:50 <xfq> present+ yigu
07:01:16 <xiaoqian> ... it defines the minimal requirements to run a MiniApp
07:01:55 <xiaoqian> Angel: please incubate all the proposals in the CG first
07:02:25 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: let's figure the minimal features of a MiniApp first
07:02:46 <xiaoqian> qingqian: agree, and to extend other features in the future
07:03:11 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: correct, packaging, manifest, lifecycle, basic APIs
07:03:47 <xiaoqian> Anqi: if something is within a scope of an existing WG, lets have the work there
07:04:07 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: can we open-source those minimal features?
07:04:17 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: +1 from Baidu
07:04:51 <xiaoqian> QuickApp vendors: we haven't reach the point yet, but will try
07:05:59 <xiaoqian> qingqian: signature is a sub-feature of packaging, but with a lot of business consideration
07:06:23 <xiaoqian> ... let's explore the possibilities to standardise it
07:07:08 <xiaoqian> Juejia: good discussion today!
07:07:32 <xiaoqian> Angel: work mode of the CG
07:07:49 <xiaoqian> ... monthly call of the CG
07:08:20 <xiaoqian> ... each TFs can have its own communication channel
07:08:42 <xiaoqian> chaals: present your proposal to the WICG once it's ready
07:08:56 <xiaoqian> ... get broader review from them
07:09:33 <chaals> [No need for it to be ready, just that you agree to work on something, and then they can give you a repo. Or you can use your own repository e.g. in miniapps CG]
07:09:52 <xiaoqian> Angel: we shall aimed at a WG to publish the minimal features for patent policy
07:11:18 <xiaoqian> ... update every 12 months
07:11:32 <xiaoqian> ... when we have finish the first version of each MiniApp features
07:12:07 <xiaoqian> Juejia: we would like work with the Web and W3C
07:12:37 <xiaoqian> ... leader of each TF should keep this in mind
07:12:47 <xiaoqian> Angel: agree
07:14:20 <xiaoqian> resolution: Reuse the MiniApp-whitepaper repo, rename to MiniApp
07:15:57 <xiaoqian> resolution: we should keep using the name MiniApp
07:16:55 <xiaoqian> chunming: mission of the CG or WG?
07:17:42 <xiaoqian> ... to have a standardised display or interaction of application on the Native Apps and the Web?
07:18:11 <xiaoqian> ... clearly document the scope
07:18:39 <xiaoqian> Angel: MiniApp should be an extension of the Web Apps
07:19:44 <xiaoqian> Chunming: lets try not to over emphasis the difference of MiniApp to the Web App
07:20:58 <xiaoqian> Chaals: tell them, you want to standardise Web App in a package
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07:21:38 <xiaoqian> ... MiniApp is a PACKAGE!
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07:26:59 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, make minutes
07:26:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html xiaoqian
07:32:03 <xiaoqian> xiaoqian: next question, shall we publish documents in English or in Chinese?
07:32:32 <xiaoqian> resolution: Proposals should be published in English
07:33:25 <xiaoqian> Angel: we also need to create a mailing list
07:33:50 <xiaoqian> Wanming: APIs needs two independent implementation
07:34:17 <xiaoqian> ... can we have MiniApp vendors as implementation as well?
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07:35:37 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: we only need implementation from 2 MiniApp vendors
07:35:46 <xiaoqian> others: agree
07:36:02 <xiaoqian> Xiaoqian: how do you define independent?
07:36:15 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: we are using different render engine
07:37:10 <xiaoqian> chaals: for implementation, what you need to show, it's to show it's widely accepted
07:37:34 <xiaoqian> ... if you have a device API, and there is another API in W3C
07:37:40 <xiaoqian> ... you have to a problem
07:37:48 <chaals> [we have mailing list public-miniapps@w3.org archived at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-miniapps/ ]
07:37:54 <xiaoqian> s/have to a/have a
07:38:44 <chaals> … because if most of the web is going to use another API for the same thing, then you don't meet the conditions, and need to explain why we should have two different APIs. Eaier to make sure the other API meets your needs, usually
07:38:47 <xiaoqian> Wanming: we would like to work with the MiniApp community
07:39:01 <chaals> s/Eaier/Easier
07:39:14 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: would you consider runtime implementation for MiniApp?
07:39:26 <xiaoqian> Wanming: as only there is any need for Desktop
07:40:08 <xiaoqian> Xiaoqian: decision policy?
07:40:21 <xiaoqian> Angel: we are a small group
07:40:53 <xiaoqian> ... I proposal major consensus, no formal objections
07:41:06 <xiaoqian> s/I proposal/I proposed
07:41:24 <xiaoqian> ... majority = more than 2/3
07:43:32 <xiaoqian> ... vote from at least 2/3 vendors, and representative from developers
07:44:09 <xiaoqian> ... number of representative from developers = 1/3 of the number of vendors
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07:46:21 <xiaoqian> Chunming: I propose we only need consensus from vendors
07:49:10 <xiaoqian> everyone: no, we need input from the developers
07:49:55 <xiaoqian> Angel: proposed: 2/3 vendors + reasonable amount of developers
07:51:06 <xiaoqian> resolution: decide when a proposal is ready to ship to WG - 2/3 vendors + reasonable amount of developers
07:51:44 <xiaoqian> action: Angel to draft a charter of the CG
07:52:48 <xiaoqian> Anqing: vendors include browser vendors
07:53:19 <xiaoqian> angel: we don't need to consider FO because it's just a CG proposal
08:02:31 <xiaoqian> resolution: 2 co-chairs at the creation of the CG, and we can add chair when we are clear about the tasks
08:03:24 <xiaoqian> action: Angel will propose a draft charter by 1 Oct and ask for review
08:03:54 <xiaoqian> resolution: first teleconference in Mid Oct
08:04:51 <xiaoqian> Angel: timeline for each TF?
08:05:00 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: too early to decide
08:05:13 <xiaoqian> chaals: teleconf in English or in Chinese?
08:05:27 <xiaoqian> Angel: one round in Chinese, one round in English
08:05:49 <xiaoqian> Qingqian: let's run it for a while and improve as time pass by
08:06:01 <chaals> +1 to Qingqian
08:06:10 <xiaoqian> Angel: we spent 3 months on the WhitePaper
08:07:04 <xiaoqian> resolution: stop working on the WhitePaper, create a FaQ wiki in the repo instead
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08:08:12 <xiaoqian> action: Chaals to find the TAG review comments
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08:14:17 <xiaoqian> https://www.w3.org/community/miniapps/
08:14:40 <xiaoqian> Join the MiniApps CG! ^^
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08:14:59 <xfq> https://w3c.github.io/mini-app-white-paper/comparison.html
08:15:14 <xiaoqian> Hax: can we keep updating the comparison document?
08:15:28 <xiaoqian> Wanming: sure, but need support from the vendors
08:15:41 <xiaoqian> Hax: great, it's a great help to the developers
08:18:14 <xiaoqian> Wanming: we can add data of  those proposals and specs Alex proposed
08:18:34 <xiaoqian> Angel: feedback for TPAC 2019?
08:19:20 <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: we made good progress on 3D Element
08:20:06 <xiaoqian> Xiaoqian: we should create a new CG for bullet chat
08:20:25 <chaals> i/Angel: feedback/Topic: TPAC 2019 Feedback
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08:21:16 <xiaoqian> Angel: are you satisfy with the progress as we are in the second year of Chinese IG?
08:21:49 <xiaoqian> ... my own thinking is it's very important to communicate with the other members before the session
08:22:14 <xiaoqian> ... to reduce objection and doubt from the foreign companies
08:23:03 <xfq> scribenick: xfq
08:23:05 <xfq> angel: talk with the relavant people before the meeting is also helpful
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08:24:04 <xfq> chunming: re breakout session
08:24:04 <xfq> ... we need to be careful about the wording "this is unique requirement from China"
08:24:04 <xfq> ... it can be used in other parts of the world too
08:24:44 <xfq> ... we can also talk about our proposal (next step) during our breakout sessions
08:25:49 <xfq> zhiqiang: there were lots of discussions in the HTML 3D element breakout session
08:26:16 <xfq> xiaoqian: potential next Chinese IG F2F topic: AR/VR
08:26:47 <xfq> ... propose early next year, after Spring Festival
08:27:14 <xfq> ... would be better to hold it before AC 2020
08:27:44 <xfq> s/be better to/be good to/
08:28:39 <xfq> xiaoqian: face tracking scenarios
08:29:11 <xiaoqian> s/xiaoqian: face/qingqian: face
08:29:25 <chaals> q+ to suggest taking face tracking to privacy interest group early…
08:29:41 <xfq> bobby: any interest in CSS from Chinese companies
08:29:41 <xfq> ... I think attending CSSWG meetings is a good opportunity for learning
08:30:02 <xfq> chaals: you should talk face tracking with PING
08:30:49 <xfq> ... it has privacy implications
08:31:10 <xfq> ... talk to PING about what can be done, and what can not
08:32:23 <xfq> hax: re CSSWG
08:32:24 <xfq> ... 360 has people interested in (and following) work in CSSWG
08:33:29 <xfq> ... although most people use libraries and frameworks
08:33:29 <xfq> ... there are people *working on* those libraries and frameworks, and need to learn new CSS features
08:34:31 <xfq> xiaoqian: some people thinks our white paper as standards
08:34:31 <xfq> ... do we need to clarify?
08:36:24 <xfq> bobby: some journalists do not know our work
08:36:24 <xfq> ... and wrote articles with somewhat hostility
08:37:08 <xfq> angel: maybe we can write blog posts
08:38:20 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
08:38:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html xfq
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08:40:00 <xfq> angel: this is the first F2F for us in TPAC
08:40:39 <xfq> ... hope we produce more stuff next year
08:40:40 <xfq> ... maybe a longer F2F
08:40:40 <xfq> ... thanks for all of your hard work!
08:41:06 <xfq> ... there wasn't many Chinese people in TPAC a few years ago
08:41:58 <xfq> ... in the future there may not be a need for a Chinese IG
08:41:58 <xfq> ... we can work in W3C working groups when the Chinese community is mature enough
08:42:34 <xfq> ... also thanks a lot for support internationally
08:42:37 <xfq> ... including people attending this meeting
08:43:21 <xfq> bobby: LG worked on Android Wear a few years ago
08:43:21 <xfq> ... proposed CSS Round Display
08:43:48 <xfq> ... it's can be used in iPhone X now
08:44:12 <xfq> ... hope we can incubate similar technical proposals
08:44:49 <xfq> s/incubate similar technical proposals/incubate our technical proposals in a similar way/
08:45:05 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
08:45:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/20-Chinese-Web-en-minutes.html xfq
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