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06:23:46 <tantek> RRSAgent, make logs public
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07:33:34 <wseltzer> Meeting: For a More Capable Web—Project Fugu
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07:34:44 <Thomas_the_fish> Feel free to ask questions in the IRC!
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07:34:53 <diervo_> anssik just voluteered xD
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07:35:27 <boaz> present+
07:35:34 <JohnJansen> present+
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07:35:59 <anssik> tom: Google, Intel, Microsoft part of the Project Fugu effort
07:36:28 <anssik> ... we can do stuff on the web today, but we're missing building blocks to build "Tokyo" on the Web
07:37:00 <tantek> RRSAgent, make logs public
07:37:09 <anssik> ... users want features and they flock to alternatives, e.g. super app-platforms WeChat, Cordova
07:37:34 <anssik> ... another example: Slack app based on Electron
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07:37:54 <anssik> [slide showing a number of APIs available to web apps today]
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07:38:37 <anssik> ... mission statement: Enable web apps to do anything native apps can, by exposing the capabilities of native platforms to the web platform, while maintaining user security, privacy, trust, and other core tenets of the web.
07:38:52 <flaki> present+
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07:39:03 <jeff> present+
07:39:05 <anssik> ... go to goo.gle/project-fugu to learn more
07:39:42 <anssik> ... we have a white paper available at bit.ly/powerful-apis
07:40:06 <anssik> tom: all the work happens in the open, including design discussions
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07:40:25 <anssik> ... the process we use from idea to a new API is as follows:
07:41:25 <anssik> ... identify need > write explainer > solicit feedback > formalize spec  > ship it
07:41:51 <anssik> ... at formalize spec step we launch an Origin Trial in Chrome to give people ability to test these ideas with real users
07:42:08 <anssik> ... we don't want to end up in a situation we ended up with vendor-prefixes
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07:42:40 <anssik> ... we iterate before shipping, improve the design based on feedback from real users and developers
07:43:14 <anssik> current features in progress and under consideration are at bit.ly/fugu-bugs
07:43:27 <anssik> ... Recently Shipped or Origin Trial APIs
07:43:43 <torgo> q?
07:43:48 <anssik> ... you can find information on Origin Trials of these capabilities at developers.chrome.com/origintrials
07:44:06 <anssik> tom: Image support for the Async Clipboard API
07:44:27 <anssik> [showing demo of the Async Clipboard API]
07:44:36 <torgo> q+ to emphasize the need for more interoperability with other browsers and other engines (as highlighted by the results of the MDN developer needs survey presented this morning).
07:44:40 <anssik> tom: File sharing support for the Web Share API
07:44:53 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
07:44:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
07:45:23 <anssik> RRSAgent, make logs public
07:45:52 <anssik> tom: File receiving support for the Web Share Target API
07:46:04 <anssik> ... Badging API
07:46:14 <anssik> ... Contact Picker API
07:46:47 <anssik> [demo of Contacts Picker API]
07:47:02 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
07:47:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
07:47:30 <anssik> Present+ A_ton_of_people
07:47:35 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
07:47:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
07:47:53 <anssik> tom: Periodic Background Sync
07:48:24 <anssik> ... these were APIs that have shipped or are in Origin Trial today
07:48:55 <anssik> ... we have more explorative APIs in works
07:49:06 <anssik> ... Barcode Detection API
07:49:14 <anssik> ... Native File System API
07:49:56 <anssik> tom: Next Steps
07:50:54 <anssik> ... SMS, Local Fonts Access, Notifications Triggers
07:51:22 <anssik> ... just a small number of features showcased today here, for the full list see  goo.gle/fugu-api-tracker
07:52:02 <anssik> ... more resources available for you to learn more
07:52:13 <anssik> ... Web Capabilities page: goo.gle/capabilities
07:52:26 <anssik> ... Fugu Capability process: goo.gle/fugu-process
07:52:56 <torgo> q?
07:53:03 <anssik> [Showing a tweet that shows some Fugu <3]
07:53:04 <wseltzer> q+
07:53:05 <anssik> q?
07:53:08 <heycam> q+
07:53:21 <anssik> ack torgo
07:53:21 <Zakim> torgo, you wanted to emphasize the need for more interoperability with other browsers and other engines (as highlighted by the results of the MDN developer needs survey presented
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07:53:25 <Zakim> ... this morning).
07:53:37 <wseltzer> q+ pes
07:53:44 <wseltzer> q- later
07:53:48 <JohnJansen> can someone else scribe?
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07:54:39 <anssik> torgo: Dan co-chair of TAG, I LOVE this work AND we heard this morning in the MDN preso that developer pain point is cross-browser compatibility, we see these APIs coming to TAG
07:55:54 <anssik> ... I'd love to see even more emphasis outreach-y type of activities to get more other browsers onboard, for more convergence
07:56:26 <boaz> q?
07:56:38 <anssik> alex: we're here to talk to you, we do everything in the open and welcome y'all to take part in the work from the very beginning
07:56:40 <jeff> q+
07:56:45 <gsnedders> q+
07:56:50 <anssik> ... if the tracker looks scary, just talk to us and we're happy to help
07:58:13 <anssik> torgo: we looked at SMS Receiver at TAG F2F, other implementers might have different priorities and interest, so there's some gray area where I'd like to see more engagement, actively soliciting and listening other browsers
07:58:42 <anssik> axel: SMS API is going to Origin Trial, so we do not let not yet ready experiments to escape the lab
07:59:10 <anssik> ... diversity of approaches is considered as part of the process, looking at alternatives
07:59:12 <anssik> q?
07:59:58 <anssik> reilly: not a lead on SMS API, but working on Fugu, I found this API interesting since Safari has a different way to do a similar task [with SMS]
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08:00:35 <anssik> ... maybe Safari iOS approach is a better approach, we have had very good discussion with WebKit engineers on this exact issue at this event and continue that discussion
08:00:38 <anssik> q?
08:00:41 <anssik> q?
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08:00:58 <anssik> thomas: we have Fugu syncs so invite Apple, Mozilla, others to join us
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08:01:07 <anssik> ... we want collaboration
08:01:42 <anssik> vincent: I agree with the points made, we had some of the earlier projects with Notifications, and some of our efforts, had interest early e.g. WebBT, WebUSB
08:02:00 <anssik> ... at that time 2014 onwards we put together proposals to gather feedback from community
08:02:02 <anssik> q?
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08:03:45 <heycam> q-
08:03:53 <anssik> [scribe missed that comment...]
08:04:17 <wseltzer> pes: have you thought about two-tiered permissions?
08:04:53 <gsnedders> ... and have a "web page" and a "web application" privilege model?
08:05:01 <anssik> alex: all permission gates use async APIs as to allow UI innovation by browser vendors
08:05:05 <gsnedders> q?
08:05:09 <wseltzer> ack pes
08:06:08 <anssik> ... UX research to be done, to understand trust relationship of users with apps that are "installed" vs. infrequently user sites
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08:06:16 <anssik> q?
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08:07:03 <anssik> john: windows perspective, we work with Shell team to ensure permissions are properly surfaced in Windows adhering to the platform conventions
08:07:27 <anssik> q?
08:07:32 <anssik> ack wseltzer
08:08:43 <anssik> wseltzer: thank you, one of the things that is interesting to me with my W3C Strategy hat on: this is a great collection of capabilities the web could look like in the future
08:08:46 <anssik> q?
08:08:55 <anssik> ack jeff
08:09:21 <anssik> jeff: W3C CEO, maybe variation Wendy's, CGs are for incubation, Rec Track for standardization
08:09:53 <anssik> ... we're getting better at this, timing incubation and formal standardization
08:10:22 <anssik> ... worry is if incubating too long, we do not get the right participation by right people, not just implementers
08:10:30 <anssik> ... we need to make sure they are all in the conversation
08:10:35 <wseltzer> s/in the future/in the future. Would like to hear how we can use the Strategy Funnel, w3.org/Strategy/Funnel to help gather and gauge community interest./
08:10:52 <anssik> ... Rec Track is often a signal for the wider community to get engaged
08:10:56 <wseltzer> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:10:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html wseltzer
08:11:25 <anssik> alex: the reason to do things in incubation is to allow rapid iteration and fail fast as needed
08:12:00 <anssik> ... WGs are hard places for API design work, we're looking for guidance on transition from incubation to formal standardization
08:12:15 <anssik> ... our goal is to get to Rec Track with this
08:13:00 <anssik> ack?
08:13:02 <slightlyoff> q?
08:13:03 <anssik> q?
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08:13:17 <wseltzer> ack gs
08:13:20 <anssik> ack gsnedders
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08:13:28 <rmondello> q?
08:13:32 <rmondello> q+
08:14:14 <anssik> gsnedders: interop in MDN survey as a key pain point, question becomes whether vendors with less resources should focus on fixing interop issues or new features
08:15:27 <anssik> alex: we do specs that have design docs and allow interop implementations
08:15:28 <anssik> q?`
08:15:30 <anssik> q?
08:15:42 <anssik> ack rmondello
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08:16:00 <anssik> rmondello: Rick from Apple, I want to thank Dan for a request for ourreach
08:16:27 <anssik> ... re SMS, we've had productive design discussions around that feature
08:16:42 <anssik> ... looking at values behind approaches, UX
08:17:16 <anssik> ... the framing of an SMS feature vs. credential/password-type feature, encourage folks to get together and hash this really out
08:17:17 <anssik> q?
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08:18:21 <anssik> heycam: many of these APIs are interfaces to device-level, testing story is interesting, need Web Driver extensions
08:18:48 <anssik> reilly: I've made noise in w-p-t, we've trying to build Web Driver extensions for these features
08:19:09 <anssik> ... that is 1-way mechanism so interested in evolving Web Driver protocol to better support device-related API testing
08:20:21 <gsnedders> s/we do specs that/eventually not implementing stuff becomes an interop issue if enough browsers ship it and websites use it, and we do specs that/
08:20:30 <anssik> john: lead of PWA capabilities for Edge, we meet tomorrow with Web Driver group and want to discuss this with folks and are open to suggestions, we've had long discussions during the week
08:20:55 <torgo> q?
08:20:58 <torgo> q+
08:21:20 <anssik> james: if we believe in multi-vendor web, we can't really improve the web faster than we reach consensus
08:21:45 <anssik> q?
08:22:34 <anssik> vincent: example, canvas2d has been extremely valuable addition to the web, it was led by a single vendor and other came along, in the end we had success
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08:23:14 <anssik> ... we can use a similar model in this context, we have Pointer Lock, Fullscreen in similar situation, 5-year gap between implementations still success
08:23:17 <anssik> q?
08:23:42 <anssik> james: canvas2d was one API, in scope of this project there are 10s of APIs
08:23:46 <anssik> ack torgo
08:23:47 <anssik> q?
08:24:23 <anssik> torgo: one of the promises of the web to the user is, it is more ethical, TAG has documented principles for more ethical web
08:25:12 <anssik> ... discussing with people involved with Fugu, impressed with thinking around mitigations to expose possibly dangerous APIs in a secure, privacy-preserving manner
08:26:03 <rmondello> To clarity the notes around what I said earlier: We've (Safari/WebKit) has communicated that we think the "SMS" framing is either unideal or harmful, rather than a credential, authentication, and one-time-password framing, and have concerns around the message template format. We're hopeful that these differences can be overcome.
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08:26:18 <anssik> tom: thanks you all for joining us, let's keep on moving this effort forward together!
08:26:29 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
08:26:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
08:27:00 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
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08:27:36 <anssik> Present+ Thomas_Steiner
08:27:52 <anssik> Present+ John_Jansen
08:31:12 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
08:31:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
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08:32:13 <tomayac> The slides from the breakout session are available at https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1QPuoAWsk1BQfkg73x7IExvxi3VjIU9DGE0uIylprfWk/edit?usp=sharing.
08:35:19 <anssik> -> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1QPuoAWsk1BQfkg73x7IExvxi3VjIU9DGE0uIylprfWk/ For a More Capable Web—Project Fugu (presentation slides)
08:35:21 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
08:35:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
08:36:28 <anssik> s/Present+ John_Jansen//
08:36:30 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
08:36:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-minutes.html anssik
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09:03:50 <tantek> RRSAgent, pointer?
09:03:50 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/18-capable-web-irc#T09-03-50
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