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23:02:14 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
23:02:14 <ivan> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
23:02:14 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group F2F in Fukuoka — First day
23:02:14 <ivan> Date: 2019-09-16
23:02:14 <ivan> Agenda: http://tinyurl.com/y366u6u8
23:02:15 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-09-19: http://tinyurl.com/y366u6u8
23:02:16 <ivan> Regrets+
23:02:16 <ivan> Chair: wendy, garth
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23:23:51 <wendyreid> Meeting: Publishing Working Group F2F Day 1
23:23:58 <wendyreid> Chair: Wendy
23:24:18 <wendyreid> Date: 2019-09-16
23:24:28 <wendyreid> Agenda: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q8PUjzMY04peuYZdTkA6A0BBoFea_BSK4ygJlphkzh8/edit
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23:41:34 <CharlesL> present+
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23:41:45 <laudrain> present+
23:42:05 <romain> present+ Romain Deltour, DAISY
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23:42:20 <romain> present?
23:42:31 <toshiakikoike> presetn+
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23:44:36 <romain> zakim, who's here?
23:44:36 <Zakim> Present: CharlesL, laudrain, Romain, Deltour, DAISY, wendyreid, JunGamo, laurent, JuanCorona, gpellegrino
23:44:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see duga, gpellegrino, laurent, Yanni, toshiakikoike, laudrain, CharlesL, JunGamo, marisa, JuanCorona, romain, George, Avneesh, wendyreid, ivan, RRSAgent, Zakim, mattg,
23:44:38 <Zakim> ... plinss_, Travis, bigbluehat, astearns, jyasskin
23:44:57 <duga> present+
23:45:01 <George> present+
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23:45:05 <JuanCorona> muting/unmuting for now to prevent feedback
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23:48:29 <Rachel> present+
23:49:41 <marisa> scribe+ marisa
23:50:07 <Rachel> zakim, who is here?
23:50:07 <Zakim> Present: CharlesL, laudrain, Romain, Deltour, DAISY, wendyreid, JunGamo, laurent, JuanCorona, gpellegrino, duga, George, Yanni, Rachel
23:50:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see Rachel, MKitahara, dauwhe, duga, gpellegrino, laurent, Yanni, toshiakikoike, laudrain, CharlesL, JunGamo, marisa, JuanCorona, romain, George, Avneesh, wendyreid, ivan,
23:50:09 <Zakim> ... RRSAgent, Zakim, mattg, plinss_, Travis, bigbluehat, astearns, jyasskin
23:50:11 <Avneesh> present+
23:50:21 <mattg> present+
23:50:41 <Rachel> present+ marisa
23:51:10 <marisa> agenda+ plan for this f2f
23:51:28 <marisa> wareid: going to CR for audiobooks, pub-manifest, sync media update
23:51:37 <marisa> s/wareid/wendyreid
23:51:46 <marisa> ...meeting with aria and mathML groups too
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23:52:53 <Rachel> present+ bigbluehat
23:53:12 <Rachel> present+ dauwhe
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23:54:21 <marisa> laurent: at dev meetup tonight, we'll demonstrate comics on readium at 6pm. location TBA.
23:54:47 <marisa> topic: lightweight packaging format
23:54:59 <laurent> https://w3c.github.io/lpf/
23:55:58 <marisa> laurent: draft note is available. shows how to put the pieces together and transmit them. small spec with specific use cases. main use cases explained in the doc.
23:56:08 <Rachel> present+ ayukiyoshida
23:56:17 <Rachel> present+ ryokuroda
23:56:18 <marisa> ... provide the finalized packaged publication from the publisher to the conversion house. useful for audio books going between the publisher and audio studio
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23:56:38 <marisa> ... can also be used to download packaged publication from the distribution point to the user agent
23:57:12 <marisa> ... the spec goes over some very simple terminology, originating from epub 3.2 or web pub document
23:57:17 <laudrain> W3C Developer Meetup – Argos D, 1F, 18:00 – 20:30
23:57:20 <marisa> ... based on zip
23:57:31 <marisa> ... viewed as an iso standard
23:58:00 <marisa> ... we defined a file and dir structure for what ppl have to put inside the zip. it's totally compatible with the packaging of the pub manifest.
23:58:39 <marisa> ... we have specified a standard name for the manifest ('publication.json'). an html entry page, if present, has to be called 'index.html'
23:59:06 <marisa> ... manifest could be embedded inside primary entry page. only one of manifest or entry page are mandatory.
23:59:12 <marisa> ... these two core files must not be encrypted
23:59:29 <marisa> ... the zip also contains all the resources of the publication, and they may live in any internal folder of the zip
23:59:45 <marisa> ... resources may be compressed
00:00:13 <marisa> ... note that streaming compressed audio files is more complex and we recommend to not compress them
00:00:46 <marisa> ... there is an algorithm to extract the manifest from this file, taken from web pub document and simplified
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00:01:10 <dauwhe> q+
00:01:11 <marisa> ... UA conformance section: UA must be capable of exploiting the archive format and opening and processing the manifest
00:01:27 <marisa> ... placeholder for examples
00:02:24 <marisa> ... the file extension is .lpf and the mime type is application/lpf+zip
00:03:08 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:03:10 <marisa> ... right now, each bookseller has its own requirements for how creators should submit their content. this should solve this problem.
00:03:12 <romain> q+
00:04:08 <marisa> dauwhe: UA conformance section - can these statements naturally lead to tests? epub spec is not successful in this regard.
00:04:25 <marisa> ... to support LPF, all you have to do is be able to access the files i the zip and present them to the next step in the processing chain
00:04:30 <romain> +1, "is capable of exploiting the archive format and file structure" sound too vague to be testable?
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00:04:53 <marisa> ... is this only a subset of a web publicatio user agent
00:05:07 <marisa> laurent: if you are a UA capable of supporting web pub, you don't need to open a zip
00:05:16 <marisa> s/publicatio/publication
00:05:25 <skk> skk has joined #pwg
00:05:36 <marisa> ... e.g. readium can open a zip and extract the manifest and expose the different resources as an internal web pub
00:05:57 <Rachel> present+ Daihei
00:05:59 <marisa> ... the two first steps may not be among the capabilities of a web pub UA
00:06:18 <marisa> ... bullet points could be more precise in referring to the previous sections in the same document
00:06:20 <Rachel> present+ ReinaldoFerraz
00:06:24 <marisa> dauwhe: current structure is hard to write tests for
00:07:08 <laudrain> q?
00:07:20 <wendyreid> ack romain
00:07:24 <dauwhe> q+ for a second question
00:07:34 <marisa> romain: is it backwards compatible with the packing spec in epub?
00:07:38 <marisa> laurent: yes totally compatible
00:07:41 <laudrain> q+
00:07:57 <marisa> ... we could have zip with an epub and then add the manifest. then you'll have an LPF.
00:08:10 <marisa> .. it would have to have the mime type file at the start
00:08:39 <marisa> romain: this packaging format may not work for all kinds of pubs - e.g. resources might be remote
00:08:51 <marisa> ... is there a way to document which part of the target publications do not work?
00:09:23 <marisa> laurent: this is not a way to "freeze" a publication. it's a way to make an epub-lite and expose it on the web later. no link to https.
00:09:27 <Makoto__> Makoto__ has joined #pwg
00:09:42 <marisa> ... if we want to fetch resources via hyperlink, you can still put the ? in there
00:09:53 <Makoto__> +q
00:10:06 <marisa> ... it's intended to be used before the publication is visible on the web, i don't see the point
00:10:16 <marisa> romain: it says LPF is used to exchange in-progress publications
00:10:44 <marisa> ... web pub is given as an example of a publication, but not all web publications can be packaged with LPF. there's a venn diagram here.
00:10:51 <marisa> laurent: yes true
00:11:04 <marisa> ... does not cover the need to take any web pub and freeze it
00:11:17 <marisa> romain: this could be stated more clearly
00:11:25 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:11:25 <Zakim> dauwhe, you wanted to discuss a second question
00:11:43 <marisa> dauwhe: there's a statement: "a package must include all resources within the bounds of the publication... "
00:12:03 <marisa> ... i wonder if we should add a note addressing for example are we explicitly forbidding things like web fonts
00:12:30 <Makoto__> -q
00:12:30 <marisa> ... is there some way to clarify that, like epub, there are certain exceptions for what can go in the package in general
00:12:49 <duga> q+
00:12:51 <marisa> ... epub tends to provide more explicit lists of what types of things should be in the package
00:13:03 <wendyreid> ack laudrain
00:13:03 <marisa> laurent: we should review the epub spec and extract some wording from there
00:13:17 <marisa> laudrain: +1 to dauwhe re testing
00:13:40 <romain> Resources Location in EPUB: https://www.w3.org/publishing/epub32/epub-spec.html#sec-resource-locations
00:13:41 <marisa> ... testing must be very clear and this doc must be testable.
00:13:51 <marisa> ... epub 3.2 work can help here
00:13:55 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:13:57 <Makoto__> Here I would like to say that I'm sympathetic to Dave about non-testable requirements.  IMHO, non-testable requirements are nothing but dreams.
00:14:18 <marisa> duga: to go back to the web font topic, we initially said everything has to be in the package, and then we started making exceptions
00:14:34 <marisa> ... this was not planned nor architecturally sound. it was an escape route from the corner we'd backed ourselves into.
00:15:03 <marisa> ... go back to beginning: does everything has to go in the package? is a better approach than just poking holes and making exceptions
00:15:26 <marisa> s/does everything has/does everything have
00:15:27 <laudrain> q?
00:15:47 <CharlesL> q+
00:15:49 <marisa> wendyreid: if the resource has changed, it's the fault of our relationship with the web
00:16:03 <marisa> ... it's ok to ref the web with the caveat that what you referenced may not be what you expected
00:16:14 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
00:16:40 <dauwhe> q+
00:16:43 <marisa> CharlesL:  can lightweight packaging format be used offline? e.g. on a USB stick in an offline environment?
00:17:01 <marisa> ... are we poking holes and creating a requirement to be online?
00:17:16 <marisa> wendyreid: getting dangerously close to best practice territory
00:17:24 <marisa> ... responsibility lies with content creator
00:17:41 <mattg> q+
00:17:48 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:18:02 <marisa> dauwhe: in the case of fonts, the web knows what to do if you can't find a font
00:18:22 <wendyreid> ack marisa
00:18:26 <wendyreid> ack mattg
00:18:42 <marisa> mattg: a lot of this are prob things that we should discuss in regards to audiobooks
00:18:59 <marisa> ... this spec may not be where we solve these questions
00:19:14 <George> q+
00:19:17 <George> Because testing is so important, is it possible to incorporate the tests into the spec instead of having testing being derived after the fact?
00:19:19 <romain> q+
00:19:22 <marisa> wendyreid: many audiobooks do reference resources on the web due to sheer size and streaming feature
00:19:28 <wendyreid> ack George
00:19:57 <marisa> George: i'm wondering about dauwhe's testing questions - can we figure out which tests we would be looking at as the spec develops, rather than writing the spec first and coming up with tests later?
00:20:00 <wendyreid> ack romain
00:20:12 <marisa> romain: +1 to mattg re not solving these things in this particular spec
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00:20:40 <marisa> ... idea to have a manifest property that indicates whether it is packagable or not. might be awkward though.
00:20:45 <laurent> q+
00:20:49 <wendyreid> ack laurent
00:20:52 <marisa> ... i think we should loosen the current restriction
00:21:12 <marisa> laurent: we can loosen the spec - we specify that URLs in reading order must be relative
00:21:19 <Makoto__> I would like to drop User Agent Conformance.
00:21:33 <marisa> ... we can say if we see an absolute URL, we won't require it to be in the package
00:21:55 <Makoto__> +q
00:22:02 <wendyreid> ack Makoto__
00:22:10 <marisa> Makoto__: i've been involved in OPC (open xml package format)
00:22:26 <marisa> ... conformance requirements in applications are difficult and dangerous to specify
00:22:32 <marisa> ... we should only provide data conformance
00:22:59 <marisa> ... if we are going to spend a lot of time creating test cases and methodology, we should stay away from UA conformance. it's a waste of time.
00:23:03 <dauwhe> q=
00:23:06 <dauwhe> q+
00:23:17 <marisa> ... at least 3 formats have tried this and failed
00:23:22 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:23:26 <marisa> dauwhe: +1 to this idea
00:23:59 <marisa> ... it seems impossible to test, and i'm not sure what testing gives us in this case. if the application cannot process this format, then it is not conformant.
00:24:18 <marisa> ... aka how would you write a bad implementation of this spec - what would it do wrong
00:24:27 <marisa> laurent: if you don't get the manifest in any situation...
00:24:36 <marisa> dauwhe: then you can't do any further processing and you're stuck
00:24:53 <romain> q+
00:24:56 <marisa> ... if you want to work with this data - we've described the format in enough data, so have at it, devs
00:25:17 <marisa> laurent: the UA conformance here is paraphrasing the description of the format in other sections. not so useful.
00:25:34 <wendyreid> ack romain
00:25:48 <marisa> romain: one thing we can test is obtaining the manifest, because there is an algo fo rit
00:25:49 <mattg> q+
00:26:02 <wendyreid> ack mattg
00:26:13 <marisa> mattg: not to make light of testing, if it's just a note, there's no TR process
00:26:18 <marisa> s/fo rit/for it
00:26:26 <CharlesL> q+
00:26:30 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
00:26:35 <Makoto__> Then, the shorter, the better.
00:28:26 <laudrain> q+
00:28:28 <marisa> wendyreid: i will write a proposal to remove UA conformance section
00:29:08 <marisa> laudrain: i wonder if there will be an AudioBookCheck (a la epubcheck) - then we will need some conformance verification for the audiobook spec *and* the packaging spec
00:29:08 <CharlesL> ack laudrain
00:29:20 <marisa> ... some tests would have to be written
00:29:21 <romain> q+
00:29:32 <wendyreid> ack romain
00:29:45 <marisa> romain: there are two things here - UA conformance and content conformance. we're talking about eliminating the former, not the latter.
00:29:58 <dauwhe> q+
00:30:34 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:30:51 <marisa> dauwhe: packaging part should be simple and difficult to screw up
00:31:41 <wendyreid> Proposed: Remove the User Agent Conformance section from LPF.
00:31:49 <Rachel> +1
00:31:50 <wendyreid> +1
00:31:50 <marisa> ... web world less interested in validating things; rather, let's define what happens when things go wrong
00:31:53 <marisa> +1
00:31:57 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:31:58 <JunGamo> +1
00:32:01 <duga> +1
00:32:03 <Makoto__> +1
00:32:04 <dauwhe> +1
00:32:04 <mattg> +1
00:32:05 <gpellegrino> +1
00:32:07 <laurent> 0
00:32:09 <bigbluehat> +1
00:32:15 <romain> +1
00:32:17 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Remove the User Agent Conformance section from LPF.
00:32:18 <JuanCorona> +1
00:32:20 <CharlesL> 0
00:32:34 <laudrain> +1
00:32:49 <marisa> wendyreid: laurent, are there any open issues or questions you need answers for?
00:33:08 <marisa> laurent: no, just waiting for the finalization of ? document to get a link to it
00:33:36 <marisa> topic: horizontal reviews
00:33:37 <laurent> s/?/the Publication Manfifest /
00:33:52 <laurent> s/Manfifest/Manifest/
00:33:52 <dauwhe> do we want to switch scribes yet?
00:33:53 <Makoto__> Deflate only?  ZIP allows more efficient ones.
00:34:10 <marisa> wendyreid: ping joining us. also i18n and a11y reviews happening.
00:34:16 <laurent> deflate only, in order to stay simple.
00:34:17 <marisa> ... i18n mostly complete (thanks ivan! )
00:34:42 <Rachel> s/do we want to switch scribes yet?/ /
00:35:20 <marisa> wendyreid: the only outstanding question is the potential for multilingual text in the manifest
00:35:38 <mattg> q+
00:35:44 <marisa> ... ivan_'s resolution is that we prob require html markup to do so
00:36:16 <wendyreid> ack marisa
00:36:19 <wendyreid> ack mattg
00:36:51 <marisa> mattg: one open issue under discussion w. addison and richard is whether or not valid/well-formed lang tags are required in all the places where we reference PCP 47
00:37:01 <marisa> ... a well-formed one only has to conform to the ???
00:37:10 <marisa> ... a valid one also has to have registered subtags
00:37:46 <Makoto__> Check against the BNF.  That's enough, I would say.
00:37:49 <marisa> ... the issue i had initially with it is that if it's well-formed then you can use whatever you want, so long as it is 2-8 chars (e.g. looks roughly like a lang tag)
00:38:12 <dauwhe> q+
00:38:19 <marisa> ... i18n group says well-formedness is what matters, not so much validity
00:38:42 <Makoto__> +q
00:38:44 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:38:59 <marisa> dauwhe: i think well-formedness is fine. restricting authors without a really good reason is a bad idea.
00:39:24 <wendyreid> ack marisa
00:39:28 <wendyreid> ack Makoto__
00:39:29 <marisa> Makoto__: +1 to dauwhe
00:39:50 <marisa> ... ppl don't specify strange language tags. they use standard ones. if they choose otherwise, ok, but it's not common.
00:40:03 <mattg> q+
00:40:07 <CharlesL> q+
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00:40:30 <wendyreid> ack mattg
00:40:58 <marisa> mattg: i tend to agree that well-formedness is fine. should we say that the first part of the language tag should be valid, or do we not care at all?
00:41:14 <Makoto__> +q
00:41:17 <marisa> q+
00:41:23 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
00:41:40 <marisa> CharlesL: do checkers need to be aware?
00:41:49 <wendyreid> ack Makoto__
00:42:07 <dauwhe> q+
00:42:07 <marisa> Makoto__: tts engine supports limited set of language tags, even if a tag is well-formed, there's no guarantee that it's supported
00:42:16 <marisa> marisa: we are getting into best practice territory
00:42:19 <wendyreid> ack marisa
00:42:39 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:42:41 <marisa> dauwhe: +1 marisa
00:43:35 <marisa> bigbluehat: do we need a resolution on the BCP-47 question?
00:43:49 <marisa> wendyreid: no, we can just leave it be, go write your book in klingon
00:44:05 <r12a> hi Wendy, this is Richard Ishida (r12a).  The internationalisation WG would like to talk with  the pub-manifest folks about the rewrites of the language sections in that spec some time this week (wer're here all week).  Is there at time that would be useful for your group to meet together ?
00:44:18 <Avneesh> q+
00:45:01 <wendyreid> Hi r12a we'd love to discuss, let's figure out a time :)
00:45:14 <wendyreid> ack Avneesh
00:46:10 <marisa> avneesh: thurs we will find if there are issues with a11y horizontal review. i have made a suggestion to the html files re issue #13.
00:46:19 <r12a> s/hi Wendy, this is Richard Ishida (r12a).  The internationalisation WG would like to talk with  the pub-manifest folks about the rewrites of the language sections in that spec some time this week (wer're here all week).  Is there at time that would be useful for your group to meet together ?//
00:46:55 <marisa> bigbluehat: zip supports all kinds of compression algos - not just deflate
00:47:28 <marisa> ... we should be clear about what we support. likely that only supporting deflate will frustrate someone. we should be up front about why.
00:48:10 <dauwhe> q+
00:48:23 <marisa> Makoto__: if we use a better algo, it could be 30% smaller. deflate has a big advantage though.
00:48:30 <marisa> laurent: deflate was chosen for epub
00:48:46 <marisa> ... even if zip libraries offer a choice, end user tools usually don't
00:49:09 <marisa> ... we won't deflate binary content. just the text.
00:49:34 <marisa> the 30% size reduction is not worth the complexity
00:49:43 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #pwg
00:49:48 <marisa> s/the 30% size/... the 30% size
00:49:57 <marisa> bigbluehat: why aren't we compressing media files?
00:50:02 <marisa> laurent: we copied that part from epub
00:50:10 <Ralph> present+
00:50:20 <marisa> ... when you want to stream from the zip, deflate makes it complex
00:50:29 <Ralph> [Ralph arrives (pseudo-Ivan), with apologies for being tardy]
00:50:50 <dauwhe> q?
00:51:36 <marisa> bigbluehat: if we make these choices to suit end user tools, then what i produce with an end user tool should give me an LPF
00:51:48 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:51:51 <marisa> laurent: use of deflate is a should
00:52:00 <marisa> dauwhe: policing the zip details didn't help the epub world
00:52:08 <marisa> ... we should let the libraries do what they do
00:52:59 <laudrain> +1 ot Dave
00:53:04 <laudrain> s/ot/to/
00:53:33 <marisa> wendyreid: ping coming at 11 for horizontal review. anything from the ping survey to discuss ahead of time?
00:53:46 <marisa> duga: someone added privacy + security sections. there were one or two comments to maybe delete.
00:54:15 <marisa> ... we have no APIs or protocols
00:54:23 <marisa> ... should be pretty straightforward
00:54:57 <marisa> Ralph: duga is mostly right
00:55:17 <marisa> ... suspect ping will have looked at what metadata we're requiring in the manifest
00:55:18 <marisa> ... we're prob in good shape
00:56:01 <marisa> ... they will want to make sure we're not requiring things that will be misused
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01:42:00 <marisa> wendyreid: a few administrative things
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01:42:05 <wendyreid> ack Ralph
01:42:18 <marisa> Ralph: welcome a new WG member Kaleeg Cainsworth from BrightWing media
01:43:38 <Ralph> s/Cain/Hain
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01:52:28 <marisa> duga: ping questionnaire asks how we handle data, prevent unauth access, if we track ppl, how much user data we expose, how much metadata do we include
01:52:49 <marisa> ... many q's are not applicable to us as we have no APIs or protocols
01:53:16 <marisa> ... anyone who allows access to this data has to be careful re how it's exposed, but that's not a concern for our spec
01:53:38 <marisa> ... we could add a comment in our privacy section that says we could potentially id and track a user who has downloaded files
01:54:32 <marisa> ... we have a very limited set of data that's required, most of it is optional
01:54:42 <marisa> ... we will expose things about authors like their names but that's not extraordinary
01:55:00 <marisa> ... security implications of using json/html/css/jpegs/pngs but we don't have control over that
01:55:22 <marisa> wendyreid: mattg and i added security + privacy considerations to audiobooks and pub-manifest specs
01:56:19 <bigbluehat> q+
01:56:25 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
01:56:41 <marisa> bigbluehat: i don't think author data is a privacy concern per se because it's on web pages and everywhere else - it's public info
01:56:52 <marisa> ... GDPR would not consider it private
01:57:35 <marisa> ... if and when we reintroduce discovery + apis, web publications and audio books could be used for private publications as well, but we're not close to that
01:58:03 <marisa> duga: author name doesn't seem like it's PII but there is concern that any automated system used to create these could share that information and might reveal pennames
01:58:13 <JuanCorona> just got that the meeting ended
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01:58:32 <George> We just lost audio on the dial in
01:59:59 <marisa> duga: what should i do with these answers?
02:00:04 <marisa> wendyreid: log as an issue on pub-manifest
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02:02:33 <marisa> we are joined by Christine Runnegar from Ping
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02:05:28 <Ralph> [Christine Runnegar, representing PING, joins]
02:05:32 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/61
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02:06:15 <marisa> wendyreid: we completed the self-review last week
02:06:34 <marisa> duga: i reviewed pub-manifest and audiobook profile
02:06:49 <marisa> ... we are not defining an API or transmission protocol so there are not so many privacy and security issues
02:07:05 <marisa> ... most of the data in a publication is publicly available anyway
02:07:18 <marisa> ... we're fairly limited in the amt of data that we require in the files but we have a lot of optional info
02:07:54 <marisa> ... we don't allow for any user tracking
02:08:03 <marisa> ... info in our files will have been put there intentionally by the creator
02:08:26 <marisa> ... we use existing formats and protocols - jsonld/css/html - no diff from web as a whole - and we don't change any of the processing models
02:08:48 <bigbluehat> q+ to explain "more secure" than the Web comment
02:09:01 <marisa> ... you could ID users by the files they've downloaded but that's generally true - we don't expose a mechanism to reveal this info
02:09:21 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
02:09:21 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to explain "more secure" than the Web comment
02:09:40 <marisa> bigbluehat: we don't have protocol so there are no concerns that come with HTTP or origins
02:11:31 <marisa> Christine: we would love feedback about what made sense and what didn't
02:12:40 <marisa> ... privacy is not just concerned with what is private and what is public - it is concerned with info shared in one context being used in another context - so public info could still have privacy requirements
02:13:04 <marisa> ... dataset could be annotated with a note, e.g. "this dataset contains personal info"
02:13:45 <marisa> duga: e.g. list of publications that a user has downloaded is extremely sensitive
02:14:20 <marisa> ... could also figure out who you are by what you've read
02:14:31 <marisa> ... however, we don't have a way of exposing this info
02:14:36 <marisa> Christine: agree
02:15:17 <bigbluehat> q+ to ask about context(s)
02:15:57 <marisa> ... i would like to read your analysis of the security + privacy review and take a quick look at the spec, but it sounds like you're prepared
02:16:00 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
02:16:00 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to ask about context(s)
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02:16:27 <marisa> bigbluehat: i like context perspective rather than public/private
02:17:01 <marisa> ... e.g. what if i download someone's voicemails and package it as an audiobook
02:17:15 <marisa> ... no way to tell from the json file what is private or public
02:17:44 <marisa> ... we've relied on other layers to take care of privacy, on top of the data
02:18:12 <marisa> ... the data itself in the json file does not contain any info about privacy/security
02:18:43 <marisa> Christine: generally what we've noticed in ping is that WGs may say that privacy is an implementation concern
02:18:52 <marisa> ... the problem is that there are good and bad implemens
02:19:07 <marisa> ... we shouldn't leave it up to the browsers et al to be the police
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02:19:28 <wendyreid> q+
02:19:36 <wendyreid> ack Ralph
02:19:36 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to ask about "advice to users"
02:19:54 <marisa> Ralph: q for Christine - what is the current advice to implementors
02:20:06 <marisa> ... what's the pref of the community for giving best practice advice
02:20:53 <marisa> Christine: good question, don't want to speak for the community, but my preference would be to be as clear and direct as possible, and all WGs should strive to do the best that they can for privacy, so saying for implementors that you should do it this way to avoid risks
02:21:08 <marisa> ... researchers or govt people can police implementors
02:21:19 <marisa> ... how can you make privacy choices detectable?
02:21:41 <marisa> ... classic case is fingerprinting - no way to easily tell that a server is fingerprinting a user if it's passive
02:21:49 <marisa> ... active fingerprinting is at least detectable
02:21:58 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
02:22:09 <Rachel> ack wendyreid
02:22:16 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/TR/audiobooks/#security-privacy
02:22:21 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/TR/pub-manifest/#security-privacy
02:22:41 <marisa> wendyreid: a content creator can put any info in any of the fields
02:23:22 <marisa> ... was hard to phrase this - we wanted to suggest that if you are going to be including identifiable info (name, url), you should get explicit approval where possible
02:23:49 <marisa> ... weren't sure if that suggestion oversteps our bounds
02:24:05 <marisa> Christine: I'm very happy to ask the Ping group to take a look
02:25:01 <marisa> ... on the point of best practices, the WG may create a separate document
02:25:31 <duga> q+
02:25:32 <marisa> ... other groups have done a group note document that covers what they'd like to see regarding this
02:25:35 <wendyreid> ack duga
02:25:50 <marisa> duga: i don't like this idea that you should get explicit consent - we should not make this decision for people
02:25:54 <bigbluehat> q+ to ask about parsing as the security vector--not content
02:25:54 <marisa> ... that's the role of laws
02:26:31 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
02:26:31 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to ask about parsing as the security vector--not content
02:27:07 <marisa> bigbluehat: security tends to put it on the file format itself. in our situation, is the privacy vector on what you can record in the content
02:27:22 <marisa> ... you can't prevent someone from putting whatever they want in text plain
02:27:49 <marisa> ... are there privacy concerns around extensible formats like json-ld?
02:28:06 <marisa> ... we can prevent privacy infringing things but then we prevent many valid use cases
02:28:26 <marisa> ... e.g. a pub manifest that points to private data is a valid use case
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02:29:18 <Rachel> bigbluehat: You have to do something to the plain text file
02:29:31 <Rachel> scribe+
02:29:46 <Rachel> christine: I need clarification on the use cases
02:30:16 <Rachel> bigbluehat: audiobooks limits it to audio files but manifests hits a broader number of specs
02:30:40 <Rachel> ...it can be created by hand or through an automated parser
02:32:11 <Rachel> christine: so you're capturing a bunch of information in a format. Anyone can put anything in it, even though it's designed for a publication purpose. I think you're right to draw a distinction. I hear duga in that laws have a role here.
02:32:29 <Rachel> ...I think this has been very helpful for clarification
02:32:35 <CharlesL> q?
02:32:55 <Rachel> ...I will take this analysis and wording back to PING
02:33:08 <Rachel> wendyreid: I am sending all the links etc via email
02:33:54 <Rachel> christine: in general, we want to be helpful - please share them. PING = W3C Privacy Interest Group. We want to improve privacy on the web
02:35:13 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/Privacy/ ᅜPrivacy Activity" (of which PING -- the Privacy Interest Group -- is a part)
02:37:31 <Rachel> Topic: Sync narration
02:37:57 <Rachel> marisa: Can I show off the work I did?
02:41:39 <Rachel> marisa: moving highlight will use CSS pseudoclasses
02:42:05 <Rachel> ...according to daniel CSS4 is not mature enough so w've left room to grow
02:42:22 <Rachel> ... also in room to grow is text selectors
02:42:52 <Rachel> ...also in our list in one text and one audio in a parallel set
02:42:59 <marisa> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/sync-media-pub/master/samples/single-document/index.html
02:44:09 <Rachel> marisa: [demo]
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02:45:30 <Rachel> marisa: the text highlight synched with the audio and escapability allowed leaving the the reading which is important to accessibility
02:46:16 <wendyreid> q?
02:46:34 <Rachel> Makoto: is it possible to skip to different sections?
02:46:55 <Rachel> marisa: that would happen in the TOC which is out of scope for this demo
02:47:37 <Rachel> Makoto: do we need escapability?
02:47:57 <Rachel> marisa: We need it for structural elements
02:48:18 <bigbluehat> prior art from EPUB https://idpf.github.io/epub-vocabs/structure/
02:48:28 <Rachel> ...one of the issues we need to return to is how do we define what needs to be escapable
02:49:23 <CharlesL> q+
02:49:55 <Rachel> ...the demo shows js implementation, playback including escapability and test feasbility
02:50:02 <Rachel> ...we need to pick a mimetype
02:50:09 <Makoto> +q
02:50:16 <Rachel> Ralph: you need approval but its proceedural
02:50:42 <Rachel> marisa: I want an audiobook adjacent format
02:50:56 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
02:51:02 <wendyreid> q+ to talk about duration
02:51:21 <Rachel> CharlesL: in terms of roles in json - could you have a type like table?
02:51:53 <Rachel> marisa: that's an open issue - we haven't defined what vocabulary has to be used
02:52:07 <wendyreid> ack Makoto
02:52:07 <Rachel> ...another is incorporating into audiobooks
02:52:26 <Ralph> -> https://github.com/w3c/sync-media-pub/issues Sync Media issues list
02:52:27 <Rachel> Makoto: is this going to be applicable to any html document?
02:52:34 <Rachel> marisa: I would think so?
02:52:43 <George> q+
02:52:46 <Rachel> Makoto: do we need to coordinate with other groups then?
02:53:12 <Avneesh> q+
02:53:16 <Rachel> Ralph: yes - timed text is a good start
02:54:05 <Rachel> marisa: I shared with them our latest draft but they are interested in going in a different direction (sound effects).
02:54:52 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
02:54:52 <Zakim> wendyreid, you wanted to talk about duration
02:55:32 <Rachel> wendyreid: I will edit the duration and length issue
02:55:38 <wendyreid> ack George
02:56:17 <Rachel> George: recently a discussion came up about alt text and we saw that some UAs allow for alt text to be read aloud
02:57:00 <wendyreid> ack Avneesh
02:57:04 <Rachel> ...we also are seeing skippability, the ability to avoid certain elements or collapse them
02:57:55 <Rachel> Avneesh: we should consider the use case for synch audio for alt text
02:58:47 <Rachel> marisa: this is an important oversight - we shouldn't say text but say element so to clarify that we are pointing to a media element
02:59:19 <Rachel> wendyreid: so if you are including supplemental content, publishers should be encouraged to do so as html
02:59:50 <Rachel> https://github.com/w3c/sync-media-pub/issues Sync Media issues list
03:00:03 <CharlesL> q+
03:00:13 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
03:01:21 <laudrain> q+
03:01:26 <wendyreid> ack laudrain
03:01:27 <Rachel> CharlesL: in terms of personalization - if the source doc is changed how does that impact the rest of the functionality
03:02:11 <Rachel> laudrain: as publishers we like to not have to change the content much - in one of your issues you mention web annotation selectors
03:02:23 <bigbluehat> q+
03:02:26 <Rachel> ...is this something that can be chosen
03:02:27 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
03:02:44 <Rachel> bigbluehat: the current property is called text
03:03:32 <romain> q+ to ask about playback styling
03:04:29 <Rachel> bigbluehat: [says stuff about text pointers]
03:04:36 <Rachel> marisa: please submit a PR
03:05:03 <Rachel> bigbluehat: do your narration fils point to what they're narrating?
03:05:12 <Rachel> marisa: there's an open issue to allow for a url
03:05:37 <wendyreid> ack romain
03:05:37 <Zakim> romain, you wanted to ask about playback styling
03:05:53 <George> q+
03:06:20 <Makoto> +q
03:06:55 <Rachel> romain: the html spec says a new metadata name should not be created if the name is for something expected to have processing requirements.
03:07:07 <Rachel> marisa: I think we were putting this in the manifest
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03:07:16 <wendyreid> ack Ralph
03:07:16 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to ask about re-use of audio files
03:07:17 <Rachel> ... can you open an issue
03:07:42 <Makoto> -q
03:08:07 <laudrain> q+
03:09:08 <Rachel> bigbluehat: with tools like hypothesis they don't let you record audio but you can imagine it being added and creating a more verbose web annotation
03:09:29 <Rachel>  marisa: open an issue?
03:09:53 <Rachel> Ralph: so if someone narrates a spec, which changes...
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03:10:06 <Rachel> bigbluehat: web annotatotions give fall back selectors
03:10:25 <sangwhan> RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:10:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/15-pwg-minutes.html sangwhan
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03:11:41 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
03:12:04 <George> lost you folks again
03:12:08 <Rachel> marisa: I'm concerned that specifying where the anchoring takes place strays into best practices
03:12:26 <bigbluehat> s/[says stuff about text pointers]/if the `text` property were changed to `fragment`, then this could work across various text-based formats such as `text/plain` and `text/csv` (etc). There's also interest from Google's Chrome team in bringing some of the Web Annotation style text selectors to HTML URLs, so there may be opportunity to provide more of those features to this spec too.
03:12:49 <sangwhan> RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:12:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/15-pwg-minutes.html sangwhan
03:13:31 <wendyreid> ack George
03:13:46 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
03:14:11 <Rachel> George: when I'm reading with a screenreader it anounces the element
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03:14:30 <Rachel> ...if I'm escaping, it's helpful to know what I am escaping out of
03:14:51 <Rachel> marisa: we do have an open issue about role vocabulary - namely how strict it should be
03:15:06 <Rachel> ...it's a user agent concern
03:16:07 <Rachel> ...you need the user agents to recognize the roles and terms, etc
03:16:13 <Rachel> ...it's an important issue
03:16:19 <wendyreid> ack laudrain
03:17:08 <Rachel> laudrain: to emphasize the pointer question - the use case of dyslexia to change the presentation of text with colored syllables
03:17:22 <Rachel> ...this has a huge impact on the source text
03:17:49 <Rachel> ...we would like to be able to do this in the same style as synch media
03:18:28 <bigbluehat> q+
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03:19:00 <wendyreid> ack Ralph
03:19:00 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to mention Personlization Semantics work https://www.w3.org/TR/2019/WD-personalization-semantics-1.0-20190711/
03:19:15 <Rachel> Ralph: there is a working group for personalization and accessibilities
03:19:23 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
03:19:38 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
03:19:50 <Rachel> bigbluehat: as of yet I don't know how to do a visualization without messing up the DOM
03:19:59 <Rachel> ...the AOM tries to get there
03:20:14 <Rachel> ...but you don't want to mess with the AOM
03:20:45 <Rachel> ... that working group would be good to connect with on this front though
03:21:01 <Makoto> +q
03:21:14 <Rachel> marisa: it feels like a user agent space concern
03:21:17 <wendyreid> ack Makoto
03:21:44 <Rachel> Makoto: CSS inserts space characters
03:22:27 <Rachel> ... I'm wondering if changing the spacing would impact what is being done
03:22:29 <bigbluehat> q+
03:22:45 <CharlesL> q+
03:22:50 <bigbluehat> q-
03:23:04 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
03:23:09 <Rachel> marisa: it depends on how fine grained the change is... Adding is likely less disruptive than subtracting
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03:23:47 <Rachel> CharlesL: at word level it may get more complicated if you have additional spaces?
03:24:05 <Rachel> marisa: this is agnostic to the level at which you highlight
03:24:51 <wendyreid> q?
03:25:01 <bigbluehat> q+
03:25:05 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
03:25:24 <Rachel> bigbluehat: DOM order is not important in synch media except to the author?
03:25:27 <Makoto> I am summoned by the I18N WG.   Will be back.
03:25:39 <Rachel> marisa: I'm agnostic. footnotes will matter.
03:26:07 <Ralph> i/bigbluehat: You have to do something/scribenick: Rachel
03:26:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/15-pwg-minutes.html Ralph
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03:27:28 <Ralph> i/scribe+ marisa/scribenick: marisa
03:27:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/15-pwg-minutes.html Ralph
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03:29:15 <George> I will catch up in the minutes about the meeting with Amazon Kindle folks.
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04:33:34 <garth> present+ Garth
04:34:30 <dauwhe> present+ Ponyo
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04:34:54 <dauwhe> not yet. We are chair-free
04:35:00 <Avneesh> present+
04:36:47 <Avneesh> all of us are standing without the chair
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04:41:32 <marisa> s/marisa: moving highlight will use CSS pseudoclasses/marisa: moving highlight will not use CSS pseudoclasses
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04:52:33 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
04:52:43 <dauwhe> wendyreid: plans have changed. we're not meeting with Amazon.
04:53:03 <dauwhe> ... I may be able to arrange a small-scale informal meeting on Thursday.
04:53:26 <dauwhe> ... this afternoon I'd like to tackle a few things... some open issues...
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04:54:00 <dauwhe> ... and something that wasn't originally on the agenda. A while ago we had a strategy meeting for the publishing activity at w3c
04:54:17 <dauwhe> ... we can brainstorm about what we want to work in
04:54:25 <dauwhe> s/in/on/
04:54:30 <dauwhe> ... first we'll do open issues
04:54:55 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/62
04:54:59 <dauwhe> Topic: Issue #62
04:55:06 <dauwhe> romain: it's an editorial issue
04:55:25 <dauwhe> ... some standards use a different terminology
04:55:38 <dauwhe> ... we talk about raising a warning when something fails
04:55:48 <dauwhe> ... but other specs use fail/error
04:56:20 <dauwhe> ... so we should adopt the terminology used elsewhere
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04:56:48 <dauwhe> wendyreid: we can talk about it with Matt later
04:56:52 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/60
04:56:55 <dauwhe> Topic: Issue #60
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04:57:22 <dauwhe> romain: there's something about if processing does not finish, the manifest is invalid
04:57:32 <dauwhe> ... and we don't say what we mean by valid
04:57:45 <dauwhe> wendyreid: issue 60 regarding the handling of invalid values
04:57:51 <dauwhe> ... we say to issue warnings
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04:58:28 <dauwhe> ... we should look more closely about what UAs should do in the case of these invalid values
04:58:36 <dauwhe> q+
04:58:41 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
04:59:00 <wendyreid> dauwhe: At the risk of sounding like a broken record, we should make it clear for user agents, and make it testable
04:59:26 <bigbluehat> q+ to note: tests or it isn't a feature
04:59:43 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
04:59:43 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to note: tests or it isn't a feature
04:59:44 <dauwhe> wendyreid: we should be specific... if a URL is invalid is different than if a date is invalid
05:00:11 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: to go through pub process, we need tests
05:00:23 <dauwhe> ... which presumes testable things
05:00:48 <laudrain> q+
05:00:51 <dauwhe> ... so if we're not clear enough we might not get out of CR
05:01:03 <dauwhe> Ralph: we haven't required comprehensive test suites
05:01:07 <dauwhe> ... it's up to the WG
05:01:42 <dauwhe> ... but for vocab, we do want to show that each term is useful, and so it must be used by two implementations
05:01:43 <wendyreid> ack laudrain
05:01:52 <dauwhe> laudrain: this brings back the q about audiobook check
05:02:04 <dauwhe> ... we have to figure out what to do with invalid values
05:02:07 <dauwhe> q+
05:02:22 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
05:02:54 <wendyreid> dauwhe: All the people I know working for reading systems deal with invalid EPUBs every day. I'm concerned about dealing with validation.
05:03:05 <dauwhe> wendyreid: as one of the RS people, I deal with bad EPUBs every minute
05:03:16 <dauwhe> ... we create behaviours for certain common errors
05:03:20 <ivan_> ivan_ has joined #pwg
05:03:25 <dauwhe> ... we can deal with RSC-011 :)
05:03:25 <bigbluehat> q+ to ask about issue 60 specifically
05:03:54 <dauwhe> ... certain errors like mimetype or missing files are critical failures, but we had to decide based on experience
05:04:33 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
05:04:33 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to ask about issue 60 specifically
05:04:36 <dauwhe> ... technically we should not deal with a book with the RSC-011 but we feel we need to
05:04:56 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: issue 60 isn't about testing, it's about things like forcing defaults or failing on processing
05:05:07 <dauwhe> ... we talk about internal representations
05:05:25 <dauwhe> ... are we now dealing with APIs and such?
05:05:49 <dauwhe> wendyreid: we have to steer towards a data format
05:05:57 <dauwhe> ... and we still have a section on processing
05:06:16 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: if we're json-LD, and we already have processing defined--it should choke on an invalid date
05:06:24 <dauwhe> wendyreid: we could refer to JSON-LD
05:07:13 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/51
05:07:15 <dauwhe> Topic: Area 51
05:07:25 <dauwhe> ... additional values for RPD
05:07:37 <dauwhe> wendyreid: do we need more values?
05:07:41 <dauwhe> q+
05:07:44 <laurent> q+
05:08:06 <dauwhe> laurent: we have a framework, we have a property, we can extend when we want
05:08:23 <dauwhe> ... we know a future step will introduce visual narratives, but we don't need it yet
05:08:28 <wendyreid> ack laurent
05:08:34 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
05:08:49 <wendyreid> dauwhe: In the future we should not discuss this without visual aids
05:09:02 <dauwhe> wendyreid: laurent is right; we can defer to a manga profile
05:09:08 <wendyreid> ack Ralph
05:09:29 <dauwhe> Ralph: this may be one place where the spec says we reserve all other values of this property for further work
05:09:42 <dauwhe> ... so implementations don't crash on values that may come along
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05:10:56 <wendyreid> Proposed: Defer #51 in favour of the future BDCoMa Profile, but Publication Manifest should state that we reserve other values for future work.
05:11:04 <wendyreid> +1
05:11:15 <dauwhe> +1
05:11:17 <CharlesL> +1
05:11:34 <romain> +1
05:11:34 <duga> +1
05:11:36 <Rachel> +1
05:11:42 <JuanCorona> 0
05:11:49 <gpellegrino> 0
05:12:10 <garth> +1
05:12:34 <bigbluehat> +1
05:12:40 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Defer #51 in favour of the future BDCoMa Profile, but Publication Manifest should state that we reserve other values for future work.
05:13:12 <dauwhe> Topic: Issue #12
05:13:13 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/12
05:13:19 <dauwhe> wendyreid: this is my favorite issue!
05:13:25 <dauwhe> ... what if there's a null base URL?
05:13:51 <bigbluehat> q+
05:13:59 <dauwhe> ... in light of recent changes to the specification, we have gotten rid of the canonicalization model algorithm
05:14:17 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
05:14:24 <dauwhe> ... so maybe this is a non-issue
05:14:38 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: we don't know where these json files are used
05:14:43 <dauwhe> ... we don't have an origin now
05:14:57 <dauwhe> ... if LPF would be to go to REC, we might have to figure out how the base url is calculated
05:15:24 <dauwhe> ... but until this JSON file is related to some HTML document that can express a base URL, we don't need to say anything
05:15:30 <dauwhe> ... it's blank/null by default
05:15:57 <dauwhe> ... there are other concerns, but this issue is not an issue
05:16:54 <wendyreid> Proposed: Close Issue #12, the canonicalization algorithm has been removed, origin is no longer a concern for Publication Manifest
05:16:57 <bigbluehat> q+
05:17:04 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
05:17:05 <dauwhe> bigbluehat:  before we vote
05:17:19 <dauwhe> ... the canonicalization thing has not been removed but renamed
05:17:24 <dauwhe> ... maybe leave that bit out
05:17:36 <dauwhe> ... just say it's a json data document thingy. might not be at a URL
05:18:02 <dauwhe> Ralph: do you want to capture bigbluehat's thought that this will be a concern in the future when the manifest is part of the web
05:18:16 <wendyreid> Proposed: Close Issue #12, the canonicalization algorithm has been changed, origin is no longer a concern for Publication Manifest, but should be considered for specifications concerning discovery
05:18:28 <bigbluehat> +1
05:18:30 <Ralph> s/part of the web/is included in some future transfer protocol(s)
05:18:37 <wendyreid> +1
05:18:56 <laurent> +1
05:19:01 <gpellegrino> +1
05:19:05 <JuanCorona> +1
05:19:12 <dauwhe> +1 with an error of 1
05:19:20 <duga> +1
05:19:24 <toshiakikoike> +1
05:19:27 <CharlesL> +1
05:19:37 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Close Issue #12, the canonicalization algorithm has been changed, origin is no longer a concern for Publication Manifest, but should be considered for specifications concerning discovery
05:20:01 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I think this one can be closed
05:20:05 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/9
05:20:15 <dauwhe> Topic: Issue number nine number nine number nine...
05:20:26 <dauwhe> (wordplay not worthy of being minuted)
05:20:38 <dauwhe> wendyreid: this is step 11 of the canonicalization algo
05:20:43 <dauwhe> ... there's not a base any more
05:20:50 <dauwhe> ... that step is gone
05:20:54 <dauwhe> ... so I think we can close
05:21:11 <dauwhe> laurent: I agree with the resolution
05:21:18 <dauwhe> ... it's also true for LPF
05:21:37 <dauwhe> ... which is about something in a zip and says nothing about how it can be exposed on the web where it needs a URL
05:21:52 <wendyreid> Proposed: Close Issue #9, recent changes to the specification around the canonicalization algorithm mean there is no longer a base.
05:22:01 <dauwhe> +9
05:22:02 <garth> +1
05:22:02 <wendyreid> +1
05:22:03 <CharlesL> +1
05:22:10 <laurent> +1
05:22:11 <romain> +1
05:22:16 <bigbluehat> +1
05:22:19 <duga> +1
05:22:24 <toshiakikoike> +1
05:22:37 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Close Issue #9, recent changes to the specification around the canonicalization algorithm mean there is no longer a base.
05:23:33 <dauwhe> wendyreid: two issues in audiobooks
05:23:41 <dauwhe> ... one of them will spawn a new issue in pub manifest
05:23:55 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/audiobooks/issues/12
05:23:59 <dauwhe> Topic: Issue #12 in audiobooks
05:24:11 <dauwhe> wendyreid: there was a suggestion to include 3 things
05:24:16 <dauwhe> ... abridged value
05:24:18 <dauwhe> ... preview
05:24:24 <dauwhe> ... how to include a preview
05:24:31 <dauwhe> ... and the last one, which will get a new issu
05:24:34 <dauwhe> ... e
05:24:44 <dauwhe> ... the isFamilyFriendly flag
05:24:49 <garth> q?
05:25:04 <dauwhe> ... schema doesn't have a MPAA-type rating
05:25:19 <dauwhe> ... there isn't a standard
05:25:35 <dauwhe> ... the retailers tend to decide
05:25:44 <dauwhe> ... kobo ask publishers to identify, and then verify
05:25:50 <dauwhe> ... it depends on jurisdiction
05:25:56 <dauwhe> ... i think the flag is worth having
05:26:11 <dauwhe> ... it's a terrible name, but schema doesn't have a better one
05:27:03 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I'd like to close this issue, and then move the isFamilyFriendly to pub manifest
05:27:42 <wendyreid> Proposed: Close Audiobooks Issue #12, abridged and preview have been added to the specification, and isFamilyFriendly be moved to Publication Manifest
05:27:54 <duga> +1
05:27:55 <CharlesL> +1
05:27:56 <Rachel> q+
05:27:56 <wendyreid> +1
05:27:56 <romain> +1
05:28:22 <wendyreid> ack Rachel
05:28:22 <dauwhe> Rachel: when we say move to publication manifest, we're really just saying that we're going to open an issue
05:28:28 <dauwhe> wendyreid: yes, just opening an issue
05:28:38 <garth> +1 (but don’t think we should do such a thing in pbu manifest, as I think it’s intractable)
05:29:08 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Close Audiobooks Issue #12, abridged and preview have been added to the specification, and isFamilyFriendly be moved to Publication Manifest
05:29:08 <Rachel> +1
05:29:17 <dauwhe> Plus one
05:29:39 <dauwhe> Topic: Issue #22 in audiobooks
05:29:39 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/audiobooks/issues/22
05:29:40 <Ralph> ["be moved to" as in "raised as an issue for discussion in"]
05:29:57 <bigbluehat> q+
05:30:06 <dauwhe> wendyreid: there's a mention of origin in the privacy and security section of audiobook
05:30:27 <dauwhe> ... (quoting from spec about where resources should be same-origin)
05:30:28 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
05:30:40 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: given what we just said about pub manifest
05:30:51 <dauwhe> ... mentioning it here is confusing
05:31:00 <dauwhe> ... we should take it out, or talk about how to handle a manifest
05:31:08 <dauwhe> ... so we should just delete the line
05:31:34 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I'm happy to delete
05:31:59 <wendyreid> Proposed: Close Audiobooks Issue #22, remove the line from the specification and defer to more qualified groups.
05:32:02 <bigbluehat> q+
05:32:08 <bigbluehat> +1
05:32:10 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
05:32:11 <CharlesL> +1
05:32:14 <wendyreid> +1
05:32:17 <duga> +1
05:32:20 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: i want to add that there's something we could call out
05:32:26 <dauwhe> ... that's the use of base in @context
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05:32:41 <dauwhe> ... you can say there's a base of all the URLs in the JSON
05:32:50 <dauwhe> ... we could have a section that explains how to do that
05:33:09 <dauwhe> ... the advantage of @base in context is that your resource list uses fewer bytes
05:33:34 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Close Audiobooks Issue #22, remove the line from the specification and defer to more qualified groups.
05:33:59 <wendyreid> Action: wendyreid to edit Audiobooks standard to remove line about the origin.
05:34:22 <dauwhe> wendyreid: do want to discuss sync media
05:34:28 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #pwg
05:34:32 <Makoto> https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Hilton+Fukuoka+Sea+Hawk,+%EF%BC%92%E4%B8%81%E7%9B%AE-%EF%BC%92-%EF%BC%93+%E5%9C%B0%E8%A1%8C%E6%B5%9C+%E4%B8%AD%E5%A4%AE%E5%8C%BA+Fukuoka,+%E7%A6%8F%E5%B2%A1%E7%9C%8C/''/@33.5877455,130.3494776,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x35419252ad90b435:0x3bb689fc8164a932!2m2!1d130.3597275!2d33.5945018!1m5!1m1!1s0x354193a481c0dac3:0xb341cf51ede86847!2m2!1d130.357555!2d33.581152!3e2
05:34:41 <dauwhe> Topic: Fragmentions
05:34:45 <bigbluehat> q+
05:34:55 <dauwhe> marisa: a way to non-desctructively reference text in an html doc
05:35:15 <Makoto> The above URL shows the location of the restaurant for our dinner.
05:35:32 <duga> scribe+
05:35:36 <Makoto> 24 minutes by foot from here.
05:36:20 <duga> marisa: Can talk DOM events
05:36:39 <duga> ... Are these standard events?
05:36:51 <CharlesL> q?
05:36:53 <duga> romain: Yes, there are some standard ones
05:37:05 <duga> ... it is easy to polyfill
05:37:07 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
05:37:15 <duga> bigbluehat: Back to fragmention thing
05:37:30 <duga> ... related to the Google thing mentioned earlier
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05:37:54 <duga> ... fragmention is only JS, will never be in a standard
05:38:15 <duga> ... The other one is designed to be a broken URL
05:38:28 <duga> marisa: Wants bigbluehat and Tantek in the same room to duke it out
05:38:41 <duga> ... Personally, neutral on the options
05:39:10 <duga> bigbluehat: If you keep with single string fragment identifier, only a few are refertenceable from a spec
05:39:41 <duga> ... For HTML probably want the Chrome thing
05:39:47 <Makoto> <dinner>The current list of participants shows 17 attendees.</dinner>
05:40:01 <duga> ... Will only show up in the scrollto section, may have spec ramifications
05:40:10 <duga> marisa: Double has anchors is the previous style
05:40:17 <duga> s/has/hash/
05:40:34 <duga> bigbluehat: Big things is want somethign you can reference
05:40:48 <duga> marisa: I am just a note, I will never be a bill
05:40:54 <duga> s/bill/rec/
05:41:06 <wendyreid> q?
05:41:14 <Makoto> <dinner>If you forgot to add yourself to the list, contact me right now.   Otherwise, even if you go there, you will have no food.
05:41:32 <duga> marisa: Are there and standard DOM events that would apply
05:41:41 <romain> known interfaces based on Event https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Event#Introduction
05:41:43 <duga> ... then our own special ones like onCanEscape
05:41:54 <duga> ... what are the standard playback DOM events
05:41:58 <duga> ... ?
05:42:05 <JuanCorona> q+
05:42:09 <duga> romain: Posted a link
05:42:32 <duga> JuanCorona: What about a media event?
05:42:34 <wendyreid> ack JuanCorona
05:42:44 <duga> ... are you looking for anything that sounds remotely like it?
05:42:51 <duga> marisa: Just don't want to reinvent
05:43:09 <duga> JuanCorona: What are the events for an audio or video element?
05:43:10 <Ralph> -> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/Events/Media_events "Media events" [MDN] -- might be relevant
05:43:16 <romain> q?
05:43:26 <duga> romain: I don't we need start or stop events
05:43:39 <duga> ... Mostly created for the playback moving thing
05:43:54 <duga> ... so there would be an event for when the element changes
05:43:57 <JuanCorona> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/HTMLMediaElement/play_event
05:45:02 <duga> ... Playback of page showing highlight moving, and could add a magnification to show the currently spoken text
05:45:10 <duga> marisa: Could add that to the demo
05:45:20 <duga> ... In what part of the spec do we define DOM events?
05:45:36 <duga> ... A lot of it could beyond playback (eg page change events)
05:45:57 <Makoto> <dinner>JuanCorona, I suppose that you are not coming.</dinner>
05:46:21 <duga> dauwhe: Did Brady talk about this years ago?
05:46:28 <duga> duga: Not exactly, that was layout
05:47:08 <duga> marisa: We define an event, polyfill it, an enabled page would detect that and do something cool
05:48:45 <marisa> https://github.com/w3c/sync-media-pub/issues/15
05:49:02 <duga> marisa: Any takers for issue 15?
05:49:41 <duga> ... Where do you make the association?
05:49:44 <bigbluehat> q+
05:50:16 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
05:50:44 <duga> ... We  don't know how a pub manifest will be processed
05:50:49 <duga> bigbluehat: Would leave it out
05:51:00 <duga> marisa: No, needs to be in pub manifest for audiobooks
05:51:05 <duga> bigbluehat: Oh
05:51:31 <bigbluehat> q+ to ask marisa to expand on the audiobook thing
05:51:35 <duga> marisa: HTML pub manifest doesn't really exist yet
05:51:46 <duga> ... So it is really hard to solve, and we keep going in circles
05:51:59 <duga> bigbluehat: Sync media is html only?
05:52:05 <duga> marisa: No, can be an mp3
05:52:33 <duga> bigbluehat: The demo was text centric, in audiobooks it is opposite
05:52:49 <duga> marisa: Yeah, but the user experience could still be indentical
05:53:32 <duga> bigbluehat: Can you get the same result using the TOC with sync media?
05:53:46 <duga> marisa: No, don't want sync media on TOC
05:53:57 <duga> general agreement
05:54:22 <bigbluehat> q-
05:54:27 <duga> bigbluehat: Index file that comes with audiobooks is just a landing page, right?
05:54:38 <duga> marisa: Could be, would have to check
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05:55:02 <Makoto> <dinner>Will Ivan attend the dinner?  Is he here in Fukuoka?</dinner>
05:55:22 <duga> marisa: Do we require it in the html head always for consistency? Or leave it optional?
05:55:38 <duga> ... Don't know, don't feel strongly, but need to decide
05:55:48 <Makoto> <dinner>Wendy, thanks.</dinner>
05:55:48 <duga> ... moving on ...
05:55:55 <duga> ... Format the explainer
05:56:12 <duga> ... Needs to look like an explainer. Could use some editing help.
05:56:24 <marisa> https://github.com/w3c/sync-media-pub/issues/13
05:56:25 <duga> Rachel: I can help
05:56:59 <duga> marisa: Next issue, 13
05:57:09 <duga> ... Want to leave this not sctrict
05:57:27 <duga> s/sctrict/strict/
05:57:47 <duga> ... Doesn't even have to be the word role
05:58:04 <duga> bigbluehat: Are you referencing an existing vocab?
05:58:11 <duga> marisa: No, that is a minefield
05:58:20 <duga> ... Maybe using "role" itself is dangerous
05:58:50 <romain> q+
05:58:57 <duga> ... Any complicated structure you might want to escape, or anything you might want to skip
05:59:06 <wendyreid> ack romain
05:59:09 <duga> ... skipability might be ignore page numbers
05:59:21 <laudrain> q+
05:59:26 <duga> romain: The issue of not having a finite list, it enters the UX realm
05:59:35 <duga> ... Need translations etc
05:59:37 <dauwhe> q+
05:59:49 <duga> ... if it is set, then the UA knows what roles to expose
06:00:25 <duga> marisa: In epub, finding the right set of terms was hard, eg how extensible should they be?
06:00:35 <duga> ... Like language tags, don't be too rigid
06:00:37 <wendyreid> ack laudrain
06:00:56 <duga> laudrain: What about the term skippable?
06:01:07 <duga> marisa: But how will they know what I am skipping?
06:01:21 <duga> ... eg need to say skip page numbers, but not footnotes
06:01:28 <duga> ... for escaping it is easy
06:01:38 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
06:01:50 <duga> dauwhe: It is also a little about how you are presenting the audio to the user
06:02:01 <duga> ... There was an abandoned attempt in CSS to do that
06:02:45 <duga> marisa: Please join the list!
06:02:58 <duga> q+
06:03:08 <wendyreid> ack duga
06:03:34 <wendyreid> duga: You need to know why its skippable, can you give it a reason instead of a role
06:03:49 <wendyreid> marisa: You'd run into translation problems, but the term doesn't need to have meaning outside of the scope
06:04:11 <duga> laudrain: Reminds me of discussion around "purpose"
06:04:38 <bigbluehat> q+
06:04:41 <duga> CharlesL: Purpose could be reused
06:04:53 <duga> laudrain: Where is the discussion on that?
06:05:03 <duga> CharlesL: Have gone sideways from there
06:05:22 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
06:05:25 <bigbluehat> https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/#motivation-and-purpose
06:05:41 <duga> bigbluehat: Web annotations has purpose and motivations already
06:05:54 <duga> ... "this is why I am pointing at something"
06:06:36 <duga> ... synced media could say "these are the terms we are using"
06:06:44 <duga> marisa: Yeah, that's what we need to figure out
06:06:59 <marisa> https://github.com/w3c/sync-media-pub/issues/12
06:07:03 <duga> bigbluehat: Could steal from the existing work
06:07:04 <Rachel> dauwhe: it was so... subtle
06:07:17 <Rachel> s/dauwhe: it was so... subtle//
06:07:26 <duga> wendyreid: Let's break
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06:52:17 <CharlesL> scribe+
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06:54:01 <CharlesL> Wendy: strategy meeting, what to work on, ideas, talk business, communities etc. on what the future would hold.  Charter expires next year… we can create a new charter and do new things.  could be brought to us from others but we can suggest new ideas for future work.
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06:54:37 <CharlesL> … ideas for next strategy meeting, so what should we include
06:54:51 <bigbluehat> q+
06:54:54 <CharlesL> … could be big ideas
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06:54:56 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
06:55:28 <dauwhe> q+
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06:56:41 <CharlesL> BY: open to ideas around web components that could become publications, iframe needs, reinvented transclusion element  (toast / switch) web components show them off get developer demand then put them into HTML maybe…
06:57:18 <wendyreid> s/BY/bigbluehat
06:57:38 <CharlesL> … could get stuck in JS.  early experiments 2 years ago single HTML document and transcluding them singularly styled included.  Virtual scroll (web component / standard web component potentially)
06:58:04 <CharlesL> …, I would like to revisit this, maybe polyfils can also be valid implementation.
06:58:11 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
06:58:31 <Rachel> q+
06:58:37 <bigbluehat> q+
06:58:42 <JuanCorona> q+
06:59:05 <wendyreid> ack RRSAgent
06:59:08 <CharlesL> Dave: incubation / experimentation this group may not be the place to do this.  this group to take existing proving things and bring them to the finish.
06:59:09 <wendyreid> ack Rachel
06:59:29 <dauwhe> s/Dave:/dauwhe:/
06:59:35 <romain_> q+
07:00:14 <CharlesL> Rachel: roadmaps to the future this work should be distributed. escalate items from CG to WG
07:00:43 <Avneesh> q+
07:00:54 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
07:03:13 <wendyreid> ack JuanCorona
07:03:14 <CharlesL> BigBlueHat: how to liaison these efforts , would be nice to write a proper spec, but we are not the implementers. what are the large needs when the browsers come into the room that we have a good collective set of deliverables that we need.
07:04:00 <CharlesL> JunGamo: Likes Marisa's work, will the WG support this work like we saw with the sync media demo
07:04:59 <JunGamo> s/JunGamo:/JuanCorona:/
07:05:15 <CharlesL> wendyreid: there is a SyncMedia CG is also is related in the publication manifest and audiobooks.  publishing CG EPUB3 CG there is room for that.
07:06:09 <CharlesL> … depends on how vocal and very specific requirement for us, and the WG has to handle bigger issue of how we handle bringing books to the web.
07:06:12 <wendyreid> ack romain
07:06:21 <Rachel> q+
07:06:53 <CharlesL> romain: can Publishing WG can do horizontal reviews in a publishing context.  dont have a spec for this but a lot of groups are interest in us Web Components, CSS etc.
07:06:57 <wendyreid> ack Avneesh
07:07:32 <CharlesL> Avneesh: Where do we want to go, these are all ways of getting there but what is the ultimate goal.  Do we have any strong business cases.
07:07:36 <wendyreid> ack Rachel
07:07:40 <laudrain> q+
07:08:20 <CharlesL> Rachel: we need to consider epub3.2 needs to move from Final specification to a Rec Track which would move from CG to WG.
07:08:21 <wendyreid> ack laudrain
07:08:34 <duga> +1 Rachel
07:09:36 <wendyreid> q+
07:10:31 <CharlesL> laudrain: we need new standards to do more types of publications.   I am against having EPUB as a recomendation;
07:11:40 <dauwhe> q+
07:11:53 <kaleeg> q+
07:12:14 <Rachel> q+
07:12:44 <CharlesL> … CPU on reading devices are getting faster better etc. but we can infuse new capabilities for the web, use incubation in community groups to foster this experimentation etc. and see what we can take further in the WG.
07:13:09 <duga> q+
07:13:11 <JuanCorona> +1 laudrain, on large DOM ideas
07:14:16 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
07:14:16 <CharlesL> … new standards personalization for renderings new ways to display info without changing it.  new work on JSONLD an metadata.  standard packaging format CSS issues still for rendering content.  we need to have more effort in publishing companies EDRLab to enable more work in CSS rendering for publications.  Horizontal Accessibility etc.
07:14:54 <CharlesL> wendyreid: ProRectrack for EPUB3.2. incubation is important (web publications we didn't have incubation and proof that it would work.)
07:16:24 <CharlesL> … which is why we didn't have this incubation and is why we decided to go in the direction we did.  But with EPUB we have 20 years of incubation and know what we will get.  We can then go to these issues to other groups if we are moving this to publication. for CSS, packaging etc.
07:17:53 <CharlesL> … we know what the problems are and what the business needs and they are not ready to move away from EPUB.  I think we can move EPUB to rec, track and can web publishing, scholarly publishing, newspapers etc we can work with them.
07:17:56 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
07:18:47 <CharlesL> dauwhe: EPUB and large documents we don't require chunking but went that way due to limitations of a sony reader at the time.
07:19:27 <wendyreid> ack kaleeg
07:19:29 <CharlesL> … abstain from EPUB rec track.
07:22:37 <CharlesL> kaleeg: I have been making EPUBs for over 20 years. Publishing WG is critical for me to look for W3C specs. Humanity in this world, I think we have the opportunity to take the publication (web;book sites) to take their own place in the world and a different kind of publishing model
07:23:13 <romain> q?
07:23:18 <CharlesL> … we have the opportunity to create our own space and new publishing model
07:23:40 <CharlesL> … we can reach out and expand in populations across the planet.
07:23:43 <wendyreid> ack Rachel
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07:25:15 <CharlesL> Rachel: Dave mention that he splits books into separate files but we must split them because large textbooks has to be split or they can't be loaded on these reading systems.
07:25:35 <wendyreid> ack duga
07:26:27 <dauwhe> q+
07:27:01 <CharlesL> duga: you can't change the world by writing a spec, but if no one asks for it it won't matter ,but people are asking for an EPUB spec.
07:27:03 <kaleeg> Q+
07:27:21 <wendyreid> q+
07:27:26 <Makoto_> +q
07:27:28 <wendyreid> ack RRSAgent
07:27:29 <CharlesL> … I don't want to work on things unless there are more than 2 parties that are interested.
07:27:30 <wendyreid> ack Ralph
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07:29:24 <CharlesL> Ralph: EPUB3 recommendation: better EPUB/PDF if there is enough interest we can do both.  we shouldn't obsess over it. for web to get better that Dave and others to force CSS to improve and the quickest way to do this for EPUB3.3 (rec track) or we should do something further reaching.
07:29:52 <CharlesL> … we should be doing more horizontal review this group has more experience and continue telling CSS to do that.
07:30:01 <Makoto_> <dinner>We have to leave here around 19:30.</dinner>
07:30:28 <CharlesL> … it will be a lot of work as Dave points out,
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07:30:48 <Makoto_> <dinner>If we are late, our seats might be cancelled.</dinner>
07:30:55 <CharlesL> … lets figure out Ebooks work on the web. whats better than PDF, but we have to do better.
07:31:10 <Rachel> i/Rachel: Dave mention that he splits books into separate files but we must split them because large textbooks has to be split or they can't be loaded on these reading systems./ This future that you describe sounds exciting and the incubation that will take place in the community groups sounds as though it will be fun to participate in but what is the standard that we use with user agents, browsers, and others now? We have a carefully incubated and
07:31:10 <Rachel> negotiated for consensus document that is ready to go to forward to the PWG and benefit a broader audience./
07:31:14 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
07:31:17 <CharlesL> … lets use the talents to get that.  not to the exclusion of EPUB3
07:32:07 <wendyreid> ack kaleeg
07:32:08 <CharlesL> dauwhe: there are lots of things we can do we can make EPUB better, its a 3 million dollar industry.  10 years from now there will be a lot of EPUB still around.
07:32:11 <CharlesL> kaleeg:
07:33:36 <CharlesL> … EPUB specs not changing the world, it changed my world a w3c spec in that I have seen the w3c spec/reports specs like decloration and when I read some specs reports and the publishing WG and I saw the possibility of an EPUB  could be a a 10 billion dollar industry.
07:34:26 <CharlesL> … new future is possible and new directions ahead our world changing every year a new million people gain access to the web.
07:34:48 <Avneesh> q+
07:34:49 <CharlesL> … w3c has that guiding light.
07:34:54 <dauwhe> ack wen
07:35:21 <Ralph> s/obsess over it./obsess over whether which to do as if we must choose only one thing to work on.
07:36:21 <CharlesL> wendyreid: we have the capacity / knowledge we can bring EPUB to recomendation… and there is a growing number of folks publishing on the web main stream publishing with massive (fanFiction) communities already doing this
07:36:21 <bigbluehat> RRSAgent, make minutes
07:36:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/15-pwg-minutes.html bigbluehat
07:36:42 <CharlesL> …  having trouble tagging their content, apply metadata
07:37:01 <bigbluehat> q?
07:37:15 <CharlesL> … we know how self publishers do it, why are they doing it on the web, and not using EPUB.
07:37:19 <laurent> q+
07:37:47 <CharlesL> … we need to reach out to this community, publishing we mean trade books but thats not the only publishing we are talking about.
07:37:50 <wendyreid> ack Makoto_
07:38:58 <CharlesL> Makoto_: proceedure: we are deviating the w3c process. stearing committee when IDPF was absolved in W3C. we need some changes, either we give up or we ask w3c team/committee.
07:39:16 <CharlesL> 3.2 as a w3c rec is not possible without changes to the process.
07:39:49 <laudrain> s/stearing/steering/
07:39:49 <CharlesL> … we can not remove these backward compatability.
07:40:18 <CharlesL> … we are expecting a new charter if Browser vendors are involved and part of the steering committee.
07:40:30 <dauwhe> q?
07:40:33 <dauwhe> q+
07:40:34 <wendyreid> ack Avneesh
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07:41:25 <CharlesL> Avneesh: 2/3 steps after this would be great.  energy on this group is low.  we need a strong business case. or exciting reason to move fwd.  maybe within the w3c
07:42:19 <CharlesL> … explore within w3c maybe see web publishing working or a strong vision to get our members excited.  we need to do something different.
07:42:19 <wendyreid> ack laurent
07:43:04 <CharlesL> laudrain: EPUB3 as a rec.  do we expect more publications as a result in these communities which are not currently using EPUB now?
07:43:52 <CharlesL> … better document maybe interoperability , technical difficulties due to CSS etc.
07:44:05 <Rachel> q+
07:44:09 <romain> q+
07:44:13 <laudrain> CharlesL : it is Laurent speaking !
07:44:50 <Rachel> s/laudrain: EPUB3 as a rec.  do we expect more publications as a result in these communities which are not currently using EPUB now?/laurent: EPUB3 as a rec.  do we expect more publications as a result in these communities which are not currently using EPUB now?
07:44:51 <dauwhe> s/laudrain:/laurent:/
07:45:03 <Makoto_> +q
07:45:10 <Rachel> s/CharlesL : it is Laurent speaking !//
07:45:35 <CharlesL> wendyreid: EPUB stronger epub light reader how can we open EPUB in a browser. better closer to the web,improving html for rendering, css there is potential there.
07:46:25 <CharlesL> … a billion dollar industry lets make it easier for them more understandable for reading systems, closer to the web.
07:46:27 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
07:47:19 <Makoto_> Three cheers to Dave
07:47:25 <CharlesL> dauwhe: as editor of EPUB right now I want to rewrite every word especially with Reading system conformance its difficult for everyone involved… I will do this regardless of rectrack.
07:47:52 <laudrain> q?
07:48:49 <romain> q-
07:49:00 <CharlesL> … there are a lot of problems on how things are organized, how we are going to work on it and what we are going to work on and the relationship between steering and WG and business group and the WG this has created difficulties between the WG/CG and BG.  need clearer responsibilities and much of this is outside process there are gaps in these.
07:49:01 <romain> (dauwhe just covered what q+'ed for: a full rewrite w/b needed, it doesn't necessarily have to happen in a WG)
07:49:26 <CharlesL> wendyreid: should not talk about process stuff for us
07:49:37 <wendyreid> ack Ralph
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07:50:57 <CharlesL> Ralph: Marisa and Dave talked about that this is a feature, this community is trying to push web technology that hasn't been pushed this way before.  experiment to enhance web technologies.
07:51:12 <dauwhe> s/Marisa/Makoto/
07:52:00 <CharlesL> … w3c needs more direction from the business models and direct more of the technical work from a business perspective.
07:52:06 <dauwhe> s/talked about that this is a feature/talked about that this as a bug, but they perhaps should consider it as a feature/
07:52:11 <CharlesL> … lets keep those conversations separate
07:53:33 <CharlesL> … Makoto sayid"W3C specs are not concerned about Longevity" we do care about the content existed.
07:54:32 <laudrain> q?
07:54:37 <CharlesL> … 0.001 feature is important "you" get to decide what is important.  the whole community reviews our work, Our work will be reviewed and commented on
07:54:49 <wendyreid> zakim, close the queue
07:54:50 <Zakim> ok, wendyreid, the speaker queue is closed
07:54:57 <laudrain> q+
07:55:07 <wendyreid> ack Rachel
07:55:08 <Rachel> q-
07:55:14 <wendyreid> ack Makoto_
07:58:47 <CharlesL> Luc: EPUB as a rec, why we failed with Web publications and how it will be better if we work on EPUB3 as a rec.
07:59:11 <CharlesL> wendyreid: End of Day 1!
07:59:59 <CharlesL> s/3 million/1 billion
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08:01:22 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:01:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/15-pwg-minutes.html CharlesL
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08:02:00 <Ralph> zakim, bye
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12:17:47 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
12:17:47 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-pwg-actions.rdf :
12:17:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wendyreid to edit Audiobooks standard to remove line about the origin. [1]
12:17:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2019/09/15-pwg-irc#T05-33-59