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15:47:48 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:47:48 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:47:48 <ivan> Chair: garth
15:47:48 <ivan> Date: 2019-09-09
15:47:48 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2019Sep/0005.html
15:47:48 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-09-09: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2019Sep/0005.html
15:47:49 <ivan> Regrets+ Luc
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16:03:42 <wendyreid> zakim, pick a victim
16:03:42 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose simon_collinson
16:03:53 <JunGamo> present+
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16:04:32 <ivan> chair: wendy
16:04:36 <Rachel> present+
16:04:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:04:45 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2019/2019-08-19-pwg
16:04:53 <ivan> Topic: Last week's minutes
16:04:54 <simon_collinson> Wendy: First up, approval of minutes.
16:04:55 <ivan> +1
16:05:06 <ivan> scribe+ simon_collinson
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16:05:24 <BenSchroeter> present+
16:05:26 <simon_collinson> Wendy: Today's meeting is about wrapping up loose ends before TPAC next week. Hope to see many of you there…
16:05:27 <ivan> resolved: last week's minutes are accepted
16:05:33 <duga> Garth and Brady joining shortly
16:05:34 <simon_collinson> …if you haven't RSVPd yet, please do…
16:05:47 <ivan> Topic: Horizontal reviews
16:05:59 <simon_collinson> …Ivan, do you want to review internationalisation?
16:06:07 <Avneesh> present+
16:06:17 <CharlesL> q+
16:06:18 <duga> present+
16:06:19 <simon_collinson> Ivan: Nothing to say yet - I don't have an answer from the internationalisation group…
16:06:34 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
16:06:35 <George> present+
16:06:38 <simon_collinson> …we should consider it closed and add a note. We've made changes here and there and had a positive effect.
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16:06:56 <garth> Present+ Garth
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16:07:12 <simon_collinson> Charles: As part of APA's personalization work, I'm reviewing it all from that angle. We have a joint meeting during TPAC, so we can discuss any issues then.
16:07:31 <simon_collinson> Brady: We are private and secure!
16:08:09 <simon_collinson> …I've filled out the ping quest. The answers are the same for privacy and the audiobook manifest. I got a couple of comments from Benjamin, may not have the correct email for Deborah
16:08:18 <rkwright> present+
16:08:27 <simon_collinson> Deborah: Brady does have the right email address, it's on me to reply :)
16:08:42 <simon_collinson> s/quest/questionnaire
16:09:03 <duga> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rkVNSAfQMiS72mBzeCa9dceFEh5VsqLdzxxz0Mzvtj8/edit?usp=sharing
16:09:07 <simon_collinson> Brady: I'll post a link to the minutes. There's a Google Doc - anyone with the link can comment.
16:09:26 <simon_collinson> Brady: Not sure what next steps are - do I give to someone, put it somewhere?
16:09:26 <ivan> q+
16:09:30 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:09:34 <garth> q?
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16:09:52 <simon_collinson> Ivan: If you look at the issue list of the repo, there are some issues open for internationalization…
16:10:25 <simon_collinson> …we should make some sort of report and mark it up, then contact the relevant people…
16:10:34 <simon_collinson> …is there anything that we have to change?
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16:10:53 <simon_collinson> Brady: I don't know if we have a privacy/security section in the manifest?
16:10:59 <simon_collinson> Ivan: There is one in the editor's draft.
16:11:08 <simon_collinson> Brady: We should put something other than 'coming soon' in there.
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16:11:36 <simon_collinson> Wendy: I'm already talking to the PING people - if they can spend some time with us next week, so I'll forward this to them.
16:11:47 <ivan> -> https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/#security-privacy Security and Privacy section in the editor's draft
16:11:47 <ivan> q+
16:11:51 <garth> q?
16:11:58 <garth> ack ivan
16:12:32 <simon_collinson> Ivan: A small flag - Matt has created a section for security and privacy… Wendy has already added something similar for audio (?)
16:12:55 <garth> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q8PUjzMY04peuYZdTkA6A0BBoFea_BSK4ygJlphkzh8/edit#heading=h.1ryfaao4cgcc
16:13:44 <simon_collinson> Garth: Can we talk briefly about the TPAC agenda? Everyone has ability to edit but please comment…
16:13:46 <ivan> topic: TPAC agenda
16:14:13 <simon_collinson> …there is the meeting with the Amazon folks, encourage people to dial in for that…
16:14:34 <garth> https://w3.org/TR/audiobooks
16:14:42 <garth> https://w3.org/TR/pub-manifest
16:14:43 <Avneesh> q+
16:14:46 <simon_collinson> …in pre-TPAC mindset, it would be good if people can spend time with our two drafts (links posted above)…
16:15:10 <ivan> q+
16:15:14 <bigbluehat> present+
16:15:15 <simon_collinson> …Matt has lost power in Nova Scotia due to the hurricane…
16:15:31 <garth> q?
16:15:37 <garth> ack Avneesh
16:16:11 <simon_collinson> Avneesh: Agenda is quite full - should we discuss the Community Group and what it has planned?
16:16:41 <simon_collinson> Wendy: Major question from EPUB3 CG to WG is what happens to EPUB 3 - and we can't answer that yet. It might come up in the business group meeting.
16:16:52 <garth> ack ivan
16:16:56 <simon_collinson> Garth: It might come up, but EPUB 3 is a long topic
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16:17:25 <simon_collinson> Ivan: What you put in as links are the published documents… I don't know whether we can republish the two documents officially (?)…
16:17:42 <romain> present+
16:17:44 <simon_collinson> …I don't know whether we need permission to do that…
16:18:05 <simon_collinson> Garth: Good point. Do we need anything consensus-wise to say 'go ahead and publish' in order to update the documents?
16:18:15 <simon_collinson> Ivan: This is a good idea - we need consensus
16:18:17 <garth> Proposal publish both our Editors drafts
16:18:20 <CharlesL> q+h
16:18:32 <garth> +1
16:18:38 <garth> q?
16:18:42 <Avneesh> +1
16:18:43 <ivan> Proposed: the WG agree to republish the manifest and the audiobook
16:18:43 <wendyreid> +1
16:18:44 <ivan> +
16:18:46 <ivan> +1
16:18:54 <rkwright> +1
16:18:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:19:08 <simon_collinson> Charles: Should I be reviewing the latest draft or the one published on the 27th August?
16:19:21 <George> +1
16:19:23 <simon_collinson> Garth: Don't review the link above - review the link to come - the current editors' draft
16:19:34 <garth> q?
16:19:37 <garth> ack h
16:19:51 <ivan> Editors' draft: -> Manifest https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/ and -> Audiobooks https://w3c.github.io/audiobooks/
16:20:00 <simon_collinson> Garth: Let's turn it over to Wendy and then Ivan subbing for Matt, to talk about changes to editors' drafts
16:20:39 <simon_collinson> Wendy: The changes to audiobooks draft are minor. I haven't done it yet, but will change privacy and security to match publication manifest. Added a section on usage of preview…
16:20:53 <simon_collinson> …so creator can include preview of content in the manifest. Minor section sorting for readability…
16:21:17 <simon_collinson> …I also added (this is in publication manifest) abridged attribute, ie content is abridged or unabridged…
16:21:17 <garth> q?
16:21:29 <simon_collinson> Ivan: There has been quite a lot of changes to manifest…
16:21:44 <simon_collinson> …many discussions since just before last publication, lots of resolutions…
16:21:55 <simon_collinson> …long-standing discussion about having a canonical manifest or not…
16:22:05 <simon_collinson> …based on resolution, the term of 'canonical manifest' has disappeared…
16:22:21 <simon_collinson> …what used to be the web id (?) is still there and takes care of presentation of the manifest…
16:22:32 <simon_collinson> …the whole processing section has been changed to display…
16:23:18 <simon_collinson> …then we had discussion about ??, as a result of that discussion we had discussion about the language in the manifest and the content…
16:23:43 <simon_collinson> …this was previously (in EPUB days) done with dc, we have cleaned it up…
16:24:06 <simon_collinson> …quite a lot of editorial changes as well…
16:24:37 <simon_collinson> …there is a pull request put in yesterday from Marisa on how to do the alternate – I reviewed this and we had some minor changes based on that…
16:24:48 <simon_collinson> …would welcome other people looking at that - it's not yet in the editors' draft…
16:24:57 <garth> q?
16:25:07 <simon_collinson> …if there's an agreement, it could be part of the editors' draft. That covers the major changes.
16:25:25 <garth> q?
16:25:39 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues
16:25:40 <simon_collinson> Garth: Is there anything else to discuss before open issues?
16:25:44 <simon_collinson> All: silence
16:25:45 <ivan> Topic: open issues
16:25:53 <simon_collinson> Garth: Three open issues proposed to close…
16:26:01 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/40
16:26:12 <ivan> Subtopic: issue trimming white space
16:26:30 <garth> q?
16:26:32 <simon_collinson> Garth: Issue 40 - trimming whitespace. Consensus is this is (for both names and values) that we don't want to introduce any new constraint. Trimming not required/done…
16:26:42 <ivan> github-bot, bye
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16:26:44 <simon_collinson> …unless there are objections, since that's been sitting a few days, we should go ahead and close it.
16:26:47 <garth> q?
16:26:47 <dauwhe> q+
16:26:54 <garth> ack  dauwhe
16:27:17 <simon_collinson> Dave: For everyone's information, EPUB does aggressively trim whitespace on metadata values (only, not for keys since they don't exist)
16:27:46 <garth> q?
16:27:50 <simon_collinson> Garth: There's commentary on keys and values here - schema.org doesn't push us in this direction. Was Dave objecting to closing?
16:27:52 <simon_collinson> Dave: No.
16:27:57 <ivan> proposed: close issue 40 with no actions
16:28:00 <bigbluehat> +1
16:28:00 <garth> Propose close #40
16:28:01 <dkaplan3> +1
16:28:06 <ivan> +1
16:28:10 <garth> +1
16:28:10 <CharlesL> +1
16:28:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:28:21 <wendyreid> +1
16:28:24 <ivan> resolved: close #40 with no action
16:28:25 <duga> +      1
16:28:25 <mateus> +1
16:28:36 <romain> +1
16:28:36 <George> +1
16:28:52 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/22
16:29:00 <ivan> Subtopic: issue #22 TAG REview
16:29:08 <simon_collinson> Garth: This one should be easy, since it's lacking content entirely - issue 22. This was a placeholder for TAG review…
16:29:08 <garth> propose: close #22
16:29:14 <ivan> +1
16:29:15 <garth> +1
16:29:27 <dkaplan3> +1
16:29:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:29:36 <George> +1
16:29:39 <franco> +1
16:29:40 <wendyreid> +1
16:29:42 <CharlesL> +1
16:29:46 <ivan> q+
16:29:47 <garth> q?
16:29:53 <garth> ack ivan
16:30:01 <simon_collinson> Ivan: For the record, there has been a TAG review separately - not sure why this issue was opened
16:30:15 <simon_collinson> …worth mentioning that we are not ignoring TAG review, just that issue was opened and not followed up…
16:30:19 <ivan> resolved: close #22
16:30:20 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/13
16:30:29 <simon_collinson> Garth: Next is issue 13, about typing for linked resources…
16:30:29 <ivan> Subtopic: typing for linked resources
16:30:46 <simon_collinson> …that has been without comments for over six months…
16:31:00 <garth> q?
16:31:09 <simon_collinson> …Dave and Hadrien came towards not adding a typing requirement. Is that acceptable to you Ivan?
16:31:11 <simon_collinson> Ivan: It is.
16:31:27 <garth> propose: close #13 with no action (no typeing requirements)
16:31:41 <garth> +1
16:31:47 <wendyreid> +1
16:31:47 <ivan> +1
16:31:52 <dkaplan3> +1
16:31:54 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:31:58 <George> +1
16:32:07 <romain> +1
16:32:11 <ivan> resolved: close #13 with no action (no typeing requirements)
16:32:12 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues
16:32:33 <simon_collinson> Garth: There are ten other issues. I'd like to request - are there ones that people on the call have opened and that they'd like to discuss?
16:32:36 <ivan> q+
16:33:13 <simon_collinson> Garth: Self-review, there's nothing to talk about. Inviting Marisa to talk through issue 33.
16:33:13 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/33
16:33:52 <simon_collinson> Marisa: I submitted a pull request, Ivan reviewed it, a few other people should have a look - Wendy in particular as this affects audiobooks. I don't have anything earth-shattering to announce…
16:34:11 <simon_collinson> Garth: We don't want to close the issue until the PR is merged.
16:34:21 <simon_collinson> Marisa: Agreed.
16:34:22 <ivan> -> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/pull/56 corresponding PR
16:34:34 <garth> q?
16:34:39 <garth> ack ivan
16:35:05 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/51
16:35:28 <simon_collinson> Ivan: So far, the reading progression has two possible values, ltr and rtl…
16:35:48 <simon_collinson> …Laurent raised the possibility of whether we needed top to bottom or bottom to top…
16:36:08 <simon_collinson> …I don't know if there's a reasonable example for bottom to top. I don't know if publications would use this, but we can add another value there if it makes sense.
16:36:09 <garth> q?
16:36:10 <dauwhe> q+
16:36:15 <garth> ack dauwhe
16:36:46 <simon_collinson> Dave: I'm not expressing an opinion about the issue, but I don't think we should make decisions here without drawing diagrams and talking about exactly what we're expecting from user agents.
16:36:56 <simon_collinson> Ivan: I agree, we should discuss when Laurent is around.
16:37:06 <ivan> q+
16:37:07 <simon_collinson> Dave: I'm wary of doing interesting visual things without a whiteboard around.
16:37:36 <simon_collinson> Ivan: Issue 9…
16:37:40 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/9
16:37:43 <garth> q?
16:37:46 <garth> ack ivan
16:38:20 <simon_collinson> …with the change of having publication manifest and not web publication, absolutization is done in the (?) and I wonder if this is something we definitely have to have…
16:38:44 <simon_collinson> …in the publication manifest now… should it be up to the profiles what happens?
16:38:57 <simon_collinson> Garth: It sounds like you're proposing close with no action?
16:39:19 <simon_collinson> Ivan: It might be better to wait for Laurent - he had issues with the spec. Let's put that on the agenda for TPAC when Laurent is around.
16:39:45 <simon_collinson> Garth: Is Daniel on the call to talk about (?)
16:39:56 <simon_collinson> …issue 12…?
16:39:59 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/9
16:40:06 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/12
16:40:53 <ivan> q+
16:41:00 <simon_collinson> Wendy: I need to read this over before I have any opinions… I think we can save this one for discussion. Maybe Ivan has more info?
16:41:23 <simon_collinson> Ivan: Related to what I said before - at the moment we have the publication manifest, where the base comes from is up to the various profiles…
16:41:38 <simon_collinson> …it was all about what happens if web content has an iframe, what is the base URL?
16:41:47 <simon_collinson> …we haven't solved this issue, but it's not relevant any more for the manifest…
16:41:52 <garth> q?
16:41:59 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:42:10 <simon_collinson> Garth: Was that a 'leave to TPAC' or 'close now'?
16:42:18 <simon_collinson> Ivan: Leave to TPAC…
16:42:43 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/16
16:42:56 <simon_collinson> Garth: We'll have Laurent with us at TPAC, so that makes sense. One other wasn't postponed, and hasn't been addressed for some time - issue 16 - to do with version in the manifest.
16:43:03 <simon_collinson> …is this obviated or are we still live?
16:43:30 <simon_collinson> …we didn't get to a satisfying conclusion…
16:43:54 <garth> q?
16:44:10 <simon_collinson> All: silence
16:44:31 <CharlesL> q+
16:44:34 <simon_collinson> Wendy: I do love the aspirational nature of the question
16:44:40 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
16:45:10 <simon_collinson> Charles: Looking at this, because it also goes in line with the accessibility specification, with the conforms-to suggestion, I like that you can specify the version number and have all the information right there…
16:45:27 <simon_collinson> …we have that already as a basis for conformance to the a11y spec…
16:45:58 <simon_collinson> …but we're trying to avoid compatibility issues, if we have a version in the future which requires special handling, if we don't put it in there now we could be in trouble…
16:46:06 <garth> q?
16:46:10 <ivan> q=
16:46:12 <dauwhe> q+
16:46:12 <ivan> Q+
16:46:22 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
16:46:22 <garth> ack dauwhe
16:46:27 <simon_collinson> Dave: I hope we can avoid having version numbers on this.
16:46:31 <wendyreid> +1
16:46:39 <simon_collinson> …it feels like a nightmare of incompatibility and writing special paths and code etc.…
16:46:47 <simon_collinson> …we've managed to avoid it in HTML and CSS, let's really try not to go there…
16:46:56 <garth> q?
16:47:01 <garth> ack ivan
16:47:07 <simon_collinson> Garth: One can also argue that even if we do choose to go there, we don't have to go there at the first try…
16:47:50 <simon_collinson> Ivan: I agree - if we look back at the comments; if we want to express conformance with a version of the specification, (??), there is a comment I made in Feb which said you can put this kind of information in the manifest…
16:47:56 <simon_collinson> …there's a way of using dc terms to do that…
16:48:13 <simon_collinson> …if this information is necessary in the document, we can do that with the manifest…
16:48:15 <garth> Propose: close #16 without action  (not adding version numbering)
16:48:23 <wendyreid> +1
16:48:24 <ivan> +1
16:48:24 <dauwhe> +1
16:48:25 <garth> +1
16:48:26 <simon_collinson> Garth: Between Dave, Wendy, and Ben, I'm proposing we close without action
16:48:28 <Nellie> +1
16:48:30 <geoffjukes> +1
16:48:32 <CharlesL> +1
16:48:33 <bigbluehat> +1
16:48:36 <dkaplan3> +1
16:48:36 <ivan> q+
16:48:38 <simon_collinson> +1
16:48:45 <garth> q?
16:48:58 <garth> ack ivan
16:49:01 <ivan> Resolved: close #16 without action  (not adding version numbering)
16:49:32 <simon_collinson> Ivan: I agree with this, maybe we can ask Matt to put in an example of how this would be provided as an information - if someone were to do that, how they would go about it
16:49:45 <simon_collinson> Garth: This is with dc terms 'conforms to'?
16:49:47 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/16#issuecomment-464087617 or https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/16#issuecomment-464098251
16:49:54 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/16#issuecomment-464098251
16:50:20 <simon_collinson> Ivan: Yes, conformsTo.
16:50:30 <ivan> acton: mattg to add an informational text on using dcterms
16:50:33 <simon_collinson> Garth: Action item for Matt, review comment ending in 251
16:51:14 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+-label%3A%22status%3A+postponed%22+
16:51:15 <garth> q?
16:51:17 <simon_collinson> Garth: Is there any other issue to review on today's call? The metadata one is postponed
16:51:33 <garth> q?
16:52:11 <garth> q?
16:52:22 <simon_collinson> Garth: Is there any other business?
16:52:39 <garth> q?
16:52:39 <simon_collinson> …the homework remains, of reviewing the editors' drafts, and if they get published soon you can review the non-draft version…
16:52:58 <simon_collinson> …hopefully a good time and accomplishment-filled time will be had by all at Fukuoka!
16:53:01 <dkaplan3> dkaplan3 has left #pwg
16:53:07 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:53:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/09-pwg-minutes.html ivan
16:53:07 <ivan> zakim, bye
16:53:07 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:53:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:53:07 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been ivan, wendyreid, CharlesL, dkaplan, franco, gpellegrino, Nellie, mateus, dauwhe, simon_collinson, JunGamo, Rachel, Bill_Kasdorf,
16:53:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg