22:43:08 RRSAgent has joined #silver-conf 22:43:08 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-silver-conf-irc 22:43:10 RRSAgent, make logs world 22:43:10 Zakim has joined #silver-conf 22:43:12 Meeting: Silver Community Group Teleconference 22:43:12 Date: 03 September 2019 22:45:22 agenda+ measures and their rubrics 22:45:22 agenda+ spreadsheet that tests the different measures 22:46:45 chair: jeanne 22:56:55 janina has joined #silver-conf 23:03:24 AngelaAccessForAll has joined #silver-conf 23:03:33 present+ 23:04:09 pkorn_ has joined #silver-conf 23:04:09 present+ 23:04:17 present+ 23:05:25 present+ 23:05:26 zakim, take up item 1 23:05:26 agendum 1. "measures and their rubrics" taken up [from jeanne] 23:05:42 scribe: janina 23:06:02 jeanne: Took action to list measures we could put in a spread sheet to see how they compare 23:07:13 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MqSvCiPqZzkO09mxz-K7IP-U74dFX8dLeHX1XmFZt4Y/edit# -> list of measures 23:07:27 jeanne: Not yet finished 23:08:03 jeanne: Trying to identify the various measures we've been discussing 23:09:10 jeanne: Mined vpats for SCs 23:09:47 q+ 23:10:22 jeanne: We need to figure out how each measuring approach provides scores 23:10:45 jeanne: impact, reach, inclusion of pwds 23:10:57 jeanne: and the measurements of investment in a11y 23:12:05 jeanne: "spirit" defined as engagement of pwds, and processes to improve products/sites 23:13:06 zakim, who's here? 23:13:06 Present: AngelaAccessForAll, jeanne, pkorn_, janina 23:13:08 On IRC I see pkorn_, AngelaAccessForAll, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeanne, MichaelC, trackbot 23:13:58 pkorn: Should we describe challenges before we develop scoring? 23:14:30 jeanne: Sounds good. Note discussing Issue #3 23:14:43 jeanne: End of last week's mtg 23:15:22 jeanne: Did the expirimental numbers provide results that reflect what we expect? We did this a year ago, have things changed 23:16:18 pkorn: Relates to measures of investment reflects expectation on effort to achieve 23:18:00 jeanne: Had research info ... Are you asking independent? Or in the group? 23:18:24 pkorn: Thinking it might be useful to describe challenges the SCs pose 23:18:59 pkorn: Or do I misunderstand spread sheet intent? 23:19:21 jeanne: We were measuring severity, ease of implementation, ease of testing, a few others last year 23:20:15 jeanne: ranked according to criteria such as auto testability, requires human eval, etc 23:20:40 jeanne: We learned severity didn't work because everything was priority #1 for some pwd group or other 23:21:55 jeanne: I have a different idea re "spirit of a11y" but want to fairly represent the proposer first ... 23:22:09 q- 23:23:37 janina: Think the spirit items have a place somewhere, but not sure how much 23:23:47 pkorn: Not sure how it actually fits 23:23:58 +1 to what you both said 23:24:15 jeanne: Agree it's not a thing you can measure 23:24:38 pkorn: Also wonder whether it's too early to put scoring values 23:24:55 pkorn: Maybe we first need to define the value of these, before grading them 23:25:17 +1 makes sense to me 23:25:36 (Apologies; I'm unable to speak right now.) 23:26:11 Thanks, Janina! 23:26:22 :-) 23:26:59 q+ 23:27:04 jeanne: Effectiveness had some interest potential -- effectiveness of the method or the technique--how good is the method, now how well implemented 23:27:42 jeanne: e.g. some SC better with ARIA than HTML -- or maybe vice versa 23:28:20 jeanne: We want to identify best, not just easiest techniques 23:31:39 jpkorn: Measuring effectiveness of techniques seems troubling 23:32:15 pkorn: Esp if no pre-existing guidance on which is preffered and why; guidance on how and why 23:32:20 Perhaps we need to be careful in what we prescribe in our techniques documentation? 23:36:26 jeanne: Don't think we could do effectiveness in the spread sheet ... 23:36:53 jeanne: Customization was the next point ... 23:38:03 janina: Asks whether "customization" is what APA is calling "personalization." 23:38:05 Is customization equal to spirit of accessibility or is it one factor that supports the spirit of accessibility? I would think it's the latter. 23:40:06 jeanne: Reading from the doc ... useful when needs conflict; and solutions aren't necessarily on authoring 23:49:00 [discussion whether we're identifying anything we would measure on an SC by SC basis] 23:50:32 pkorn: Suggesting something a little different ... 23:50:51 pkorn: To look at what the challenging SCs are when viewed through a conformance lens 23:51:12 pkorn: e.g. what makes SC X easier or more challenging to measure 23:52:06 pkorn: quantity, complexity, dynamism of content ... 23:52:33 pkorn: issues of scale which are independent of scale, and some exaserbated by scale 23:52:54 pkorn: Offering to draft something for the group to consider 23:53:03 jeanne: That would be very helpful 23:53:52 jeanne: We decided we want to base our approach on data, so providing us data would be very helpful 23:54:19 pkorn: Hadn't thought of it as data focus, as opposed to informed from painful experience, but sure 23:54:26 jeanne: painful experience is also data 23:54:35 pkorn: Not just an opinion out of the blue 23:55:04 pkorn: We can talk about what data best supports when we have something to show as a concept 23:55:31 jeanne: some of our research data is opinion, but it's froma different background than our wg 23:56:02 jeanne: e.g. we talked to lawyers, they want a transparent conformance -- why is this A and this AA -- the judge asks, and they don't have an answer 23:56:26 jeanne: So we wanted to get away from the A/AA/AAA valuations