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15:48:42 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:48:42 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:48:42 <ivan> Chair: wendy
15:48:42 <ivan> Date: 2019-08-12
15:48:42 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2019Aug/0008.html
15:48:42 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-08-12: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2019Aug/0008.html
15:48:43 <ivan> Regrets+ tzviya, marisa, Kenneth
15:57:08 <ivan> present+
15:58:45 <ivan> present+ George
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15:58:51 <ivan> present+ simon_collinson
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16:01:18 <ivan> present+ rachel
16:01:27 <wendyreid> present+
16:01:30 <ivan> present+ nick
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16:02:38 <wendyreid> zakim, pick a victim
16:02:38 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose simon_collinson
16:02:50 <dauwhe> Go Zakim!
16:02:51 <ivan> scribe+ simon_collinson
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16:03:22 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2019/2019-08-05-pwg
16:03:28 <simon_collinson> Wendy: Half the links in the minutes are in markdown format - I'll fix that
16:03:42 <simon_collinson> … first order of business: approving the minutes …
16:03:42 <garth> garth has joined #pwg
16:03:47 <ivan> resolved: last week's minutes approved
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16:03:51 <garth> present+ Garth
16:03:52 <simon_collinson> … silence taken as agreement …
16:03:54 <Avneesh> present+
16:04:02 <josh> present=
16:04:03 <timCole> present+
16:04:06 <josh> present +
16:04:12 <simon_collinson> Wendy: First order of business for today: Dave and Benjamin attended a web packaging workshop recently…
16:04:16 <ivan> topic: web packaging workshop report
16:04:25 <simon_collinson> … asked Dave to give a quick overview of results of workshop
16:04:44 <simon_collinson> Dave: Briefly - at the Internet Architecture Board (related to IETF ?) …
16:04:53 <romain> romain has joined #pwg
16:05:05 <simon_collinson> … a lot of controversy because Google's web packaging spec is related largely to search carousel …
16:05:18 <romain> present+
16:05:26 <simon_collinson> … Google wants newspapers and other publishers to provide content to be hosted by Google - Google to control access …
16:05:45 <simon_collinson> … two pieces: one called origin substitution - ability to serve from a cache elsewhere, but show original URL …
16:05:55 <simon_collinson> … v. controversial - Firefox among those objecting …
16:06:09 <simon_collinson> …other piece is combining all resources into a single binary file …
16:06:23 <simon_collinson> … fair amount of support for this second piece across browser ecosystem …
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16:06:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:06:41 <simon_collinson> … part of our fundamental goals - this bundle would be double clickable in a browser window …
16:07:01 <simon_collinson> … this seems like a packaging mechanism which could work for our use cases - wouldn't require intermediation, browser would support directly …
16:07:13 <BenSchroeter> BenSchroeter has joined #pwg
16:07:16 <simon_collinson> … Dave spent a fair amount of time talking to Jeffrey ?? privately, he supported our use cases …
16:07:20 <BenSchroeter> present+
16:07:27 <simon_collinson> … discussion positive, high level and interesting overall.
16:07:28 <wendyreid> s/??/Yasskin/
16:07:28 <ivan> q+
16:07:34 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:07:56 <simon_collinson> Ivan: Two questions: is the bundling very different from the document produced by TAG many years ago?
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16:08:09 <simon_collinson> Dave: yes, based on CBOR - contact binary object representation - rather than multi-part MIME
16:08:14 <simon_collinson> Ivan: Why is that good?
16:08:14 <duga> present+
16:08:34 <George> q+
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16:08:42 <simon_collinson> Dave: They documented some of the reasons, but a lot is to do with streamability arguments, random access, amount of content that has to be transmitted over the wire. I'm not qualified to answer that particular question
16:09:09 <simon_collinson> Ivan: Second question: another problem with Web Packaging is that a package is prepared to be valid for a relatively short amount of time… not so good for us
16:09:33 <simon_collinson> Dave: This is more to do with the signed exchanges. Jeffrey told me unsigned exchanges would give access to non-secured APIs of the web, but not secured ones
16:09:40 <simon_collinson> …for most of our use cases this is probably enough.
16:10:02 <simon_collinson> … there was also discussion of signed exchanges for the archiving case, and where signature has expired.
16:10:05 <wendyreid> ack George
16:10:19 <simon_collinson> George: Is this something that potentially could become a REC?
16:10:54 <simon_collinson> Dave: This work is not happening at W3C - confusing and strange, but the specifications are currently being developed as IETF RFCs, but from the ??? community group within the W3C…
16:11:08 <wendyreid> s/???/WICG/
16:11:12 <simon_collinson> … both specs are in the IETF. The bundling spec is less mature than the signed exchanges spec.
16:11:35 <simon_collinson> Wendy: Any other questions?
16:11:36 <Avneesh> W3C has relation with IETF, which is better than relation with WHAT WG
16:12:14 <simon_collinson> Wendy: Moving on to open issues in the specs. We now have different places for issues - eg audiobooks issues are logged against audio project, etc.
16:12:15 <ivan> Topic: Issues
16:12:38 <ivan> Subtopic: Create a Vocabulary of rel attributes for extra resources
16:12:41 <simon_collinson> … this might be confusing for a while, but we'll manage. First issue: final issue before next draft of audio spec: vocabulary of rel attributes for extra resources
16:12:52 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/audiobooks/issues/7
16:12:54 <ivan> -> https://github.com/w3c/audiobooks/issues/7 Audio issue #7
16:12:54 <simon_collinson> …we're already using a rel attribute for the cover, but do we need them for supplemental content?
16:13:01 <ivan> github-bot, bye
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16:13:23 <simon_collinson> …based on our discussion, do we want to create a list of rel values, eg 'booklet' or do we want to use the IANA link relations valueset?
16:13:26 <wendyreid> https://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xhtml
16:13:47 <simon_collinson> …this list is fairly complete, has a few publication-specific things, eg 'appendix', 'author', 'chapter'…
16:13:56 <simon_collinson> …this could potentially cover most of our use cases. Thoughts?
16:14:11 <simon_collinson> *silence*
16:14:15 <ivan> q+
16:14:15 <Teenya> Present+
16:14:19 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:14:26 <simon_collinson> Wendy: I expected this topic to be contentious…
16:14:42 <dauwhe> q+
16:14:45 <simon_collinson> Ivan: I don't recall the process of adding something to the IANA list, but the cleanest way, if we're only missing one or two, is to try and get them into that list.
16:14:52 <garth> q?
16:14:58 <simon_collinson> Wendy: Good point.
16:14:58 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
16:15:30 <simon_collinson> Dave: I want to express caution about these kinds of vocabularies… our experience in EPUB is that these have been a pain - hard to maintain, and I'd hope that we only add terms when there's a behavioural necessity…
16:15:40 <romain> +1
16:15:45 <ivan> present+ timCole
16:15:55 <simon_collinson> … people like labelling these things from a metadata perspective, but is a reading system going to do something different based on this rel value if it's a booklet vs appendix vs colophon vs etc. etc.
16:16:11 <simon_collinson> … I hope that the need comes up for the vocabulary, rather than defining one first and hoping that it's used
16:16:38 <simon_collinson> Wendy: Calling on Laurent for thoughts, since he opened the issue
16:16:48 <ivan> present+ laurent
16:17:09 <simon_collinson> Wendy: I lean on the side of Dave, because we're in the early days of this sort of content… it might not even get used.
16:17:27 <simon_collinson> …or if we open it up, it might get used too specifically…
16:17:42 <ivan> q+
16:17:46 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:18:04 <simon_collinson> Ivan: It's probably fine to postpone this issue - don't close and forget, leave it open for now, but follow what Dave says…
16:18:21 <simon_collinson> …we should see if there's a need for it, then go down the IANA path…
16:18:38 <simon_collinson> …if we record that in the issue then postpone resolution, that's fine.
16:18:44 <simon_collinson> Wendy: Any opposition to postponing?
16:18:51 <laurent> ok for postponing
16:18:57 <laudrain> +1 to postpone
16:19:11 <wendyreid> Proposed: Postpone discussion of Audiobooks #7 (Rel values) until we receive more feedback
16:19:17 <romain> +1
16:19:17 <ivan> +1
16:19:20 <garth> +1
16:19:22 <NickRuffilo> +1
16:19:22 <timCole> +1
16:19:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:19:23 <laurent> +1
16:19:25 <dauwhe> +1
16:19:27 <simon_collinson> +1
16:19:34 <josh> +1
16:19:35 <BenSchroeter> +1
16:19:37 <Rachel> +1
16:19:40 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Postpone discussion of Audiobooks #7 (Rel values) until we receive more feedback
16:20:00 <simon_collinson> Wendy: Next issue, moving into publication manifest issues (pulled from WP):
16:20:06 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/21
16:20:16 <ivan> Subtopic: Metadata rendering "hints" from epub we should consider for manifests
16:20:25 <ivan> -> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/21 Manifest issue #21
16:20:35 <simon_collinson> …from Brady, looking at some of the things from EPUB which we might want to consider still using in manifest
16:20:48 <simon_collinson> …mostly related to page direction – flow, layout, spreads, viewport, linearity, etc.
16:20:48 <ivan> q+ to explain
16:21:05 <dauwhe> q+
16:21:08 <simon_collinson> …there was some suggestion to drop linear and viewport, but the rest…
16:21:12 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:21:12 <Zakim> ivan, you wanted to explain
16:21:15 <garth> q?
16:21:22 <garth> q+
16:21:33 <simon_collinson> Ivan: To explain the history, when we created the new repo for the manifest, Matt and I transferred a number of old issues across that were relevant…
16:21:36 <mgarrish> q+
16:21:48 <simon_collinson> …this is one of those. It may be that it's not relevant, but that's how it ended up here.
16:21:56 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
16:22:46 <simon_collinson> Dave: I think as a general principle we should not describe rendering in metadata. The web has a whole language for rendering - I think especially assuming in advance that the EPUB FXL concept of 'displaying two independent viewports side by side in a particular relationship' is something that we should not bring to web publications…
16:22:54 <duga> q+
16:22:57 <wendyreid> ack garth
16:23:03 <simon_collinson> …I would hope we would say that we're not going to do rendering in metadata, and leave it at that…
16:23:34 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
16:23:35 <simon_collinson> Garth: I disagree with Dave… moving forward we have to figure out how to support FXL - this is clearly irrelevant for audiobooks, so this is a long term defer
16:24:26 <simon_collinson> Matt: I agree on deferring generally all of this metadata stuff - the one that interests me here is the page progression direction… there's no means of establishing that when going from document to document… it might come into play with HTML. That's maybe the only one we should consider now…
16:24:30 <wendyreid> ack duga
16:24:30 <garth> q?
16:24:33 <simon_collinson> …until we have stronger cases for the others, let's defer…
16:24:47 <simon_collinson> Brady: I'm fine deferring, but wanted to point out these aren't all FXL.
16:25:19 <garth> q?
16:25:27 <simon_collinson> … page progession direction is the one thing that has no other way of being displayed - CSS is within single documents, nobody has figured out how to implement that across documents…
16:25:29 <laudrain> +1 to brady
16:25:42 <simon_collinson> … these are widely used things in EPUBs today which have to somehow get into web publications…
16:25:48 <ivan> q+
16:26:00 <simon_collinson> Wendy: I'm in strong agreement re: page progression…
16:26:09 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:26:20 <simon_collinson> …because audiobooks have some text in them, we do need this for audiobooks, since we might have a Japanese audiobook with JP-language text attachments…
16:26:41 <simon_collinson> Ivan: There is a direction property in the spec right now (??) which could play this role
16:26:56 <romain> q+
16:27:05 <wendyreid> ack romain
16:27:50 <garth> q?
16:27:55 <garth> q+
16:27:58 <ivan> -> https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/#manifest-default-language-and-dir direction in the current document
16:27:58 <wendyreid> ack garth
16:28:01 <simon_collinson> Romain: Agreeing that page progression is not covered by CSS currently, but that's because CSS is not about a collection of documents - we can't magically fix by adding this value to manifest - needs more work, including collaborating with CSS working group and others - might need to work with community group on this, rather than arbitrarily picking values
16:28:16 <ivan> q+
16:28:17 <George> hq+
16:28:24 <simon_collinson> Garth: I don't have a strong position, but for audiobooks we do have the ancillary resources. Romain, do you disagree that we need page progression for figuring that out?
16:28:29 <dauwhe> q+ George
16:28:46 <simon_collinson> Romain: I'm not familiar enough with the audiobook use case to answer that. Let me think about it.
16:29:06 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:29:08 <simon_collinson> Garth: I'm completely willing to think about nothing but audiobooks in this context… an argument could be made that you need to know the order in which to page through ancillary resources
16:29:18 <dauwhe> q+
16:29:27 <romain> q+
16:29:45 <simon_collinson> Ivan: I disagree with Romain. What we have is the manifest, it doesn't say anything about rendering as such… we don't dictate any way of rendering, it's just information - we don't say how a title should be displayed either…
16:30:06 <simon_collinson> …the fact of having the base direction as part of the manifest is perfectly fine. I don't think that's on a collision course with CSS…
16:30:26 <wendyreid> ack George
16:30:31 <simon_collinson> …today we don't do anything with these documents (??), we know that, but the information is useful for reading systems.
16:30:48 <simon_collinson> George: A reminder that in order to pass accessibility APA, we need a mechanism for providing text transcripts, those need progression information
16:30:51 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
16:31:02 <simon_collinson> Dave: Are we assuming that all ebook ancillary content will be paginated?
16:31:06 <duga> 1+
16:31:08 <simon_collinson> Ivan/Wendy: No
16:31:08 <duga> q+
16:31:15 <wendyreid> ack romain
16:31:57 <simon_collinson> Romain: To clarify: the primary concern is to avoid any conflict with the web. As long as we stay in the audiobook context, I guess we can do innovative things. But here it's really about rendering web content, so we should either use existing mechanisms or talk with the groups which define them…
16:32:15 <ivan> q+
16:32:16 <simon_collinson> … there are questions re: pagination in ancillary content… but do we really need this information? I'm failing to see the real use case here…
16:32:27 <simon_collinson> …rephrasing the issue or making a clearer use case might be appropriate…
16:32:44 <simon_collinson> …if we are to enter the realm of rendering, then we should make a very strong case for anything we do on our own…
16:32:45 <wendyreid> ack duga
16:33:24 <simon_collinson> Brady: Building on what Romain and Dave said - it's not clear to me that we know how the ancillary content is going to actually be used by reading systems. George made a comment about transcripts, but I don't know if the reading system needs to know the progression direction - it might just display text on the screen…
16:34:15 <simon_collinson> … I don't know how this information will be used. We're trying to cover every possible use of every possible content… we should wait to see how it's used… I'm not planning to glue the ancillary content together into something like an ebook (not a product announcement, just something I don't imagine doing)…
16:34:45 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:34:45 <simon_collinson> … I can see there's a reason we could want this, but it doesn't seem to me like that's sufficient to get into the really difficult discussions around CSS before we discover the use cases…
16:34:53 <ivan> https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/#manifest-default-language-and-dir
16:35:52 <simon_collinson> Ivan: We have two terms in languages in production (??) which show direction. I realise that reading the text can be a problem. The current manifest defines language and base direction. The fact that we have both is something we can use (??)…
16:36:18 <simon_collinson> …we may want to remove these and say nothing about language or direction
16:36:26 <simon_collinson> (sorry, having trouble following Ivan's connection)
16:36:49 <ivan> q+
16:36:50 <simon_collinson> Wendy: We don't want to add the text direction property to our metadata, at least not just yet…
16:37:00 <ivan> q-
16:37:39 <simon_collinson> …I think we want to keep in the language and direction properties… if reading systems use them, that's their decision. But during implementation, we should be keeping in contact with implementors to see what they want to do with this ancillary content…
16:37:53 <simon_collinson> … do they need additional information to render it, do they want to infer themselves, do they have a better idea for how we do it…
16:38:02 <simon_collinson> …happy to postpone until we have more opinions on this point.
16:38:16 <ivan> q+
16:38:21 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:38:26 <simon_collinson> …we could send this to the publishing community group and ask them to find a solution
16:38:40 <simon_collinson> Ivan: Do we want to remove references to the direction and language of publication from the manifest? That's what we need to decide
16:38:44 <simon_collinson> Wendy: I don't think we should remove them
16:39:03 <simon_collinson> Wendy: In-language is kind of important for a reading system or user agent to make inferences
16:39:29 <simon_collinson> …I'm adding the postpone label to this issue.
16:39:51 <ivan> subtopic: Should the Canonical Identifier be a URL?
16:39:54 <simon_collinson> Wendy: Next issue has already been closed - Pub-Manifest: Should the Canonical Identifier be a URL?
16:40:16 <ivan> -> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/3 Manifest issue #3
16:40:36 <simon_collinson> Brady (?): We had a few things that were still pretty Web-Pubby - need people to read over and see if anything in there still seems too closely tied to Web Publications
16:40:45 <ivan> s/Brady/Matt/
16:40:49 <simon_collinson> Sorry Matt :)
16:41:12 <ivan> See the -> manifest draft https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/3
16:41:17 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/
16:41:27 <simon_collinson> Wendy: Please look over the publication manifest draft… link to follow… just to take off your Web Publications hat and think of this purely as a manifest
16:42:07 <simon_collinson> …so, look over the manifest, remember it's not just Web Publications, but something other groups and publications types can use as basis for other profiles (including audiobooks), but it isn't just for audiobooks. If something is missing related to audiobooks, that's ok
16:42:25 <simon_collinson> … there are also several issues currently set as 'to be closed' - please review, I'll send a list this week before closing.
16:42:36 <simon_collinson> … if you look at the comments, they're mostly settled. We just never closed them
16:42:42 <wendyreid> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q8PUjzMY04peuYZdTkA6A0BBoFea_BSK4ygJlphkzh8/edit
16:42:43 <ivan> Topic: TPAC in one month
16:42:56 <simon_collinson> … last topic: we're one month out from TPAC. We don't have a settled agenda yet, and only three items on the agenda item requests…
16:43:14 <simon_collinson> …one of the major items, and this will probably take a morning or a whole day, we do need to set the audiobooks implementation and test plan…
16:43:33 <simon_collinson> …as we get ready to move to CR…
16:43:54 <simon_collinson> …the other two items - we have been approached by W3C management, as they had a productive conversation with Amazon, who would like to attend our meeting…
16:44:11 <simon_collinson> … Wendy and Rachel working with Amazon folks to define mini-agenda - discussion about how we can work together…
16:44:23 <simon_collinson> …looking to understand what they're interested in, as well as tell them what we're working on…
16:44:29 <laurent> I have to drop. bye!
16:44:40 <ivan> q+
16:44:44 <simon_collinson> …we should also give some time to the community group - maybe to talk about page progression - a bit of exploration…
16:44:46 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:45:10 <simon_collinson> Ivan: We plan to go to CR after the meeting, end of Sep/beginning of Oct. That includes primarily the audiobook and manifest documents as they stand
16:45:28 <simon_collinson> …one thing to remember: once the document is in CR, we are not supposed to make any major changes…
16:46:02 <simon_collinson> …when we go to a new round of publication, everybody should try to find some time to go through the document with (??) and do one last round of review to find anything which needs to be changed…
16:46:14 <simon_collinson> … everyone should spend some time reading the documents before publication.
16:46:42 <simon_collinson> Wendy: Please add things you'd like to include on the agenda, and we'll fill out times from next week…
16:47:27 <simon_collinson> Wendy: That's it - talk again next week. Exciting because there will be some updated drafts of some documents.
16:47:31 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:47:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/12-pwg-minutes.html ivan
16:47:31 <ivan> zakim, bye
16:47:31 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:47:31 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:47:31 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been timCole, romain, Bill_Kasdorf, BenSchroeter, duga, Teenya, laurent
16:47:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg