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14:41:04 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
14:41:04 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Chairs’ Telco
14:41:04 <ivan> Chair:  Luc
14:41:04 <ivan> Date: 2019-08-09
14:41:04 <ivan> Regrets+ Avneesh, daihei
14:41:04 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2019Aug/0010.html
14:41:05 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-08-09: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2019Aug/0010.html
14:55:34 <mateus> present+
14:56:37 <ivan> present+
14:58:14 <dauwhe> present+
14:58:17 <ivan> present+ george
14:58:46 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #pbgsc
14:58:55 <laudrain> present+
14:59:59 <laudrain> so mny chicken?
15:00:25 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:00:48 <George> present+
15:01:08 <wendyreid> present+
15:01:22 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #pbgsc
15:02:03 <ivan> present+ mgarrish
15:03:42 <jeff> jeff has joined #pbgsc
15:03:46 <jeff> present+
15:05:58 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:06:08 <dauwhe> laudrain: I sent an agenda yesterday with two main items
15:06:22 <dauwhe> Topic: EPUBCheck Development
15:06:36 <dauwhe> ... project is still running; there are milestones this fall
15:06:46 <dauwhe> ... we have been talking about on the management call
15:06:50 <dauwhe> ... we could reconfigure the dates
15:07:01 <dauwhe> ... the doc has a more detailed timeline
15:07:06 <dauwhe> ... it's not a big change
15:07:11 <dauwhe> ... just a one-month delay
15:07:35 <dauwhe> ... so we would have to pay for documentation and refactoring/cleanup
15:07:40 <dauwhe> ... paid end of August
15:07:46 <dauwhe> ... can I ask for your approval?
15:07:46 <ivan> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2019Aug/att-0010/Updated_timeline_of_EPUBCheck_1_.docx updated timeline for epubcheck
15:07:59 <dauwhe> ... stage two finishes at the beginning of next year.
15:08:03 <dauwhe> ... any questions?
15:08:24 <dauwhe> ... I will consider that you approved this change.
15:08:51 <dauwhe> ... there will be a management call on 22 August
15:08:55 <laudrain> q?
15:09:04 <dauwhe> Topic: Amazon
15:09:23 <garth> garth has joined #pbgsc
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15:09:39 <garth> present+ Garth
15:09:57 <Rachel> present+
15:09:58 <dauwhe> laudrain: Jeff sent us an email about amazon's particaption
15:10:12 <dauwhe> jeff: the AB meets four times a year; this week we met in Seattle
15:10:18 <dauwhe> ... in the evening we meet with locals
15:10:26 <dauwhe> ... as we did in NYC last year
15:10:40 <dauwhe> ... since we were in Seattle, and Amazon is a new w3c member
15:10:48 <dauwhe> ... it was suggested that we meet up with amazon
15:11:01 <dauwhe> ... there were 6-8 amazonians, 3 related to kindle
15:11:20 <dauwhe> ... they only sent people where they had a specific agenda
15:11:36 <dauwhe> ... Avneesh put together some issues, which attracted people to the meetup
15:11:56 <dauwhe> ... 3 people from kindle team, 2 who have recently joined CSSWG
15:12:07 <dauwhe> ... they seemed interested in w3c stuff
15:12:12 <dauwhe> ... and eager to work together
15:12:44 <dauwhe> ... we talked about some specifics
15:13:09 <dauwhe> ... they ingest EPUB, but lose some a11y info
15:13:15 <dauwhe> ... which is unfortunate
15:13:33 <dauwhe> ... Avneesh, Florian, and I are the AB members with some knowledge of publishing
15:14:15 <dauwhe> ... I talked to Stanton and Giorgio... you'll be at TPAC, would you be OK working with the EPUB community on issues of mutual interest?
15:14:20 <dauwhe> ... they said sure, let's do that.
15:14:27 <dauwhe> ... Giorgio on the Kindle side
15:14:33 <dauwhe> ... none of them were audible folks
15:15:03 <dauwhe> ... so I'd like to have the SC appoint someone to work with them
15:15:16 <dauwhe> ... and let's spend some time together at TPAC
15:15:32 <dauwhe> ... wendyreid can add something to PWG agenda
15:15:39 <dauwhe> ... and they may be joining the EPUB 3 CG
15:15:44 <George> q+
15:15:47 <dauwhe> laudrain: this is good news
15:15:54 <dauwhe> ... and a great opportunity
15:15:58 <laudrain> ack George
15:16:02 <dauwhe> George: I've met with joanna before
15:16:15 <dauwhe> ... they have given me some things they want to see coming out of EPUB and other areas
15:16:22 <laudrain> q+
15:16:41 <dauwhe> ... it would be great if the kindle group could voice these things directly instead of going through me
15:16:57 <mateus> +1 -- very encouraging
15:16:58 <dauwhe> ... Joanna has publicly said that the best input for Kindle is reflowable EPUB 3
15:17:14 <laudrain> ack laudrain
15:17:23 <dauwhe> laudrain: in europe, we are seeking contact with amazon people in context of euro a11y act
15:17:36 <dauwhe> ... the kindle guidelines ask publishers to create good EPUB files
15:17:58 <ivan> q+
15:18:07 <dauwhe> ... even EPUB3 born accessible files... we are eager so that the efforts done in europe for production accessible epub3 convert correctly and with no loss in kindle format
15:18:27 <dauwhe> ... Gregorio P. did some tests, and we know there some issues, some loss of a11y information
15:18:51 <dauwhe> ... so we had to chance to meet an amazon manager from europe in a meeting setup by the french minister of culture
15:19:04 <dauwhe> ... explaining the consequences of the euro a11y act in the future
15:19:14 <dauwhe> ... both on ebooks and the selling platforms
15:19:25 <dauwhe> ... that concerns amazon
15:19:40 <dauwhe> ... and Fernando met these guys in Brussels in july
15:20:00 <dauwhe> ... so there will be a meeting in october with Cristina M, etc
15:20:18 <dauwhe> ... we want to discuss a11y and also about amazon approval of EPUB a11y specifications
15:20:28 <dauwhe> ... for best ingestion format for kindlegen tool
15:20:47 <dauwhe> ... to build accessible mobi files
15:21:28 <dauwhe> ... at the meeting we want to show the euro commission that there is already a good spec, epub a11y, and so something new isn't needed
15:21:39 <dauwhe> ... and this is on an ISO track now
15:21:47 <dauwhe> ... and so would become the Euro standard
15:22:17 <dauwhe> ... we will meet in Europe, we can meet at TPAC
15:22:27 <dauwhe> ... how might this be syncronized
15:22:33 <laudrain> ack ivan
15:22:33 <dauwhe> ivan: I was just wondering
15:22:44 <laudrain> q+
15:22:48 <dauwhe> ... is there a systematic overview of the EPUB 3 features that are forgotten by amazon
15:22:54 <dauwhe> ... not only a11y but in general
15:22:59 <Rachel> q+
15:23:10 <dauwhe> ... so we would have a framework of areas where we could work towards syncronization
15:23:22 <dauwhe> laudrain: Gregorio did tests from an accessible EPUB3
15:23:51 <dauwhe> ... we don't have systematic analysis but we can identify some features
15:24:17 <dauwhe> ... we don't know kindle format spec, as it is not public
15:24:25 <laudrain> ack Rachel
15:24:30 <dauwhe> Rachel: I can give an example
15:24:37 <ivan> regrets+ liisa
15:25:03 <dauwhe> ... Amazon recommends that you avoid tables in your EPUB, because they don't ingest or display properly in Kindle
15:25:23 <dauwhe> Garth: it's almost an a11y feature ;)
15:25:32 <dauwhe> present+ Garth
15:25:49 <ivan> q+
15:25:51 <wendyreid> q+
15:25:53 <dauwhe> laudrain: there could be a slot for the PWG f2f in Fukuoka
15:25:57 <laudrain> ack laudrain
15:25:58 <ivan> ack laudrain
15:26:00 <dauwhe> wendyreid: yes, that's the plan
15:26:06 <dauwhe> ... I put it on our agenda list
15:26:14 <dauwhe> ... I've met Stanton before
15:26:23 <wendyreid> q-
15:26:23 <dauwhe> q+
15:26:26 <laudrain> ack ivan
15:26:32 <dauwhe> ivan: I was wondering what the next step was
15:26:38 <dauwhe> ... who should contact who
15:26:51 <dauwhe> ... jeff, you said you would be happy to make an introduction
15:26:53 <laudrain> q+
15:26:54 <jeff> q+
15:27:03 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
15:27:25 <laudrain> dauwhe: contact with the PWG is great
15:27:44 <laudrain> … their interest may be on EPUB3 , so the CG
15:27:46 <wendyreid> q+
15:27:56 <Rachel> q+ garth
15:28:00 <ivan> q+ garth
15:28:02 <dauwhe> dauwhe: it would be good to also talk about epub3
15:28:07 <ivan> ack laudrain
15:28:08 <dauwhe> ivan: the pwg can donate some time :)
15:28:17 <dauwhe> laudrain: when I speak about issues with amazon in europe
15:28:36 <dauwhe> ... if we want sync of these discussions, avneesh and I are on both sides, so we can help
15:28:49 <laudrain> ack jeff
15:29:24 <ivan> +1 to jeff
15:29:30 <dauwhe> jeff: first, to dave, the reason I suggested the PWG meeting was not about web publications, but because it there was an opportunity
15:29:42 <dauwhe> ... the next step is to appoint someone to work the agenda
15:29:45 <laudrain> +1 to donate an hour to the CG
15:30:07 <dauwhe> ... probably the best person would be someone with first-hand experience of the interop problems between EPUB and Kindle
15:31:12 <dauwhe> laudrain: Rachel, you have experience
15:31:13 <laudrain> q?
15:31:18 <mateus> q+
15:31:20 <dauwhe> Rachel: um...
15:31:23 <laudrain> ack wendyreid
15:31:36 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I was going to suggest... I'm happy to slot an hour for amazon in the meeting
15:31:45 <dauwhe> ... but I'd love to have an agenda for it
15:32:00 <laudrain> q+
15:32:02 <mateus> q-
15:32:05 <dauwhe> ... jeff, if you can put both me and rachel in touch with stanton and giorgio, we can figure it all out together
15:32:11 <dauwhe> garth: that works for me
15:32:26 <laudrain> q?
15:32:34 <laudrain> ack garth
15:32:38 <jeff> q+ to talk about agenda
15:32:42 <dauwhe> ... the EPUB community, broadly speaking, does need to work with amazon
15:33:36 <dauwhe> laudrain: the idea to have this time slot is a good idea
15:33:50 <garth> garth has joined #pbgsc
15:33:51 <dauwhe> ... avneesh and I could have some part of working on the agenda
15:34:22 <laudrain> ack jeff
15:34:22 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to talk about agenda
15:34:35 <dauwhe> jeff: I don't think we should have too many people working on the agenda
15:34:49 <dauwhe> ... to garth's point about relationship building
15:35:07 <dauwhe> ... I think we can do multiple things in an hour if we clearly communicate.
15:35:27 <dauwhe> ... 15min on relationship, 15min on a11y, X minutes on interop, etc.
15:35:42 <dauwhe> laudrain: what is the conclusion
15:35:42 <laudrain> q?
15:35:48 <laudrain> ack laudrain
15:35:52 <dauwhe> garth: wendy and Rachel
15:36:10 <dauwhe> Rachel: I'm happy to do it. I have lots of experience with EPUB and Kindle
15:36:20 <dauwhe> jeff: everyone else, send your ideas to Wendy and Rachel
15:36:36 <dauwhe> laudrain: wendy and rachel, you will be the contact, and then we will share the draft agenda?
15:36:38 <dauwhe> Rachel: yes
15:36:45 <dauwhe> laudrain: other next steps?
15:36:59 <ivan> q+
15:37:18 <George> q+
15:37:19 <dauwhe> laudrain: I'll let you know when we have a date about the federation of european publishers meeting
15:37:47 <laudrain> ack ivan
15:38:01 <dauwhe> ivan: if i am optimistic and there is a goal at the end of the meeting for some convergence
15:38:19 <dauwhe> ... this systematic list of issues is something the community could try to do
15:38:24 <laudrain> q?
15:38:38 <dauwhe> ... we'll need a place for that
15:38:47 <laudrain> ack George
15:38:53 <dauwhe> George: regarding the euro directive
15:39:04 <dauwhe> ... does that also require harmonization from PDF
15:39:20 <laudrain> q+
15:39:23 <dauwhe> ... folks from NISO have asked if i wanted to be more involved with PDF-UI (?) work
15:39:28 <dauwhe> laudrain: yes, you are right
15:39:32 <ivan> ack laudrain
15:39:42 <dauwhe> ... the euro a11y act doesn't speak about file formats, just says 'ebooks'
15:39:55 <dauwhe> ... considered as services that need to be accessible
15:40:11 <dauwhe> ... in 2025 all ebooks will have to be a11y
15:40:49 <dauwhe> (have to stop scribing for about two minutes)
15:41:34 <laudrain> q?
15:41:53 <jeff> ... formats include PDF
15:42:02 <jeff> ... George, if you have questions about PDF, LMK
15:42:04 <ivan> scribe+ jeff
15:42:10 <jeff> George: Thank you.
15:42:38 <jeff> Luc: We are done with the topic.  We have next steps and assignments.
15:42:54 <jeff> ... Jeff?
15:42:59 <jeff> Jeff: Yup, we are done on this one.
15:43:05 <jeff> Luc: Next point on agenda
15:43:15 <ivan> Topic: PBG event in Japan
15:43:30 <jeff> ... We have 4 items
15:43:34 <ivan> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2019Aug/att-0017/0808Update_Agenda_TPAC_Fukuoka_PBG_F2F_Confefrence_2_.docx latest version of the agenda
15:43:34 <jeff> ... 4 people for them
15:43:41 <jeff> ... confirmation from the people
15:43:52 <jeff> ... first 2 are more informal
15:44:00 <jeff> ... Murai-sensei keynote
15:44:32 <jeff> ... one session on accessibility
15:44:41 <jeff> ... ISO work - Murata-san
15:44:50 <jeff> ... Daisy Japan people
15:45:11 <dauwhe> laudrain: last topic is more brainstorming about publishing
15:45:18 <garth> q?
15:45:31 <dauwhe> ... daihei has a chance to invite people from animation,
15:45:46 <laudrain> q?
15:45:52 <dauwhe> ... people here are still gathering
15:45:59 <dauwhe> ... any more questions?
15:46:37 <ivan> Topic: WG TPAC agenda
15:46:48 <dauwhe> wendyreid: there's a google doc for the agendat
15:46:57 <dauwhe> ... we'll discuss in the PWG meeting on Monday
15:47:22 <ivan> -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q8PUjzMY04peuYZdTkA6A0BBoFea_BSK4ygJlphkzh8/edit F2F agenda page (to be completed)
15:47:33 <dauwhe> laudrain: Dave, you opened a discussion in the CG yesterday on the EPUB roadmap?
15:47:38 <ivan> Topic: EPUB discussion
15:47:51 <ivan> scribe+
15:47:58 <laudrain> dauwhe: CG call yesterday started EPUB roadmap
15:48:08 <ivan> scribe-
15:48:12 <ivan> scribe+ laudrain
15:48:16 <laudrain> … very intersting discussions
15:48:53 <laudrain> … on lot of cases figure out what is the scope for spec, RS, outside our control
15:48:59 <ivan> s/intersting/interesting/
15:49:06 <laudrain> … design principle for EPUB, like HTML
15:49:22 <laudrain> s/principle/principles/
15:49:36 <laudrain> … foundation principles before starting
15:49:51 <dauwhe> laudrain: it's very interesting to see the rapidity of reactions
15:50:10 <dauwhe> ... and there is a larger community discussing things in the context of production all over the world
15:50:20 <dauwhe> ... the cg is doing a very interesting job
15:50:28 <dauwhe> ... not all these items belong to the spec or the cg
15:50:42 <dauwhe> ... but people working every day with epub are expressing their concerns
15:50:43 <laudrain> q?
15:50:56 <dauwhe> laudrain: any other business?
15:51:11 <dauwhe> (silence)
15:51:37 <dauwhe> ... thanks everyone, thank you dave for scribing.
15:51:38 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:51:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/09-pbgsc-minutes.html ivan
15:51:38 <ivan> zakim, bye
15:51:38 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
15:51:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
15:51:38 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been mateus, ivan, dauwhe, george, laudrain, wendyreid, mgarrish, jeff, Garth, Rachel
15:51:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc