15:00:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
15:00:04 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/08/01-tt-irc
15:00:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:00:06 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #tt
15:00:08 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:00:08 <trackbot> Date: 01 August 2019
15:00:12 <nigel> Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/08/01-tt-irc
15:00:16 <nigel> scribe: nigel
15:00:19 <nigel> Present: Nigel
15:00:21 <nigel> chair: Nigel
15:01:03 <nigel> Present+ Glenn, Pierre
15:01:22 <nigel> Present: Gary
15:01:56 <nigel> Present: Nigel, Glenn, Pierre, Gary
15:02:18 <nigel> Present+ Atsushi
15:02:27 <atsushi> no mic today, sorry
15:02:44 <nigel> Present- Atsushi
15:02:55 <nigel> Present+ Atsushi_irc-only
15:03:05 <nigel> Present+ Andreas, Cyril
15:03:30 <nigel> Topic: This meeting
15:03:42 <nigel> Nigel: [iterates through agenda]
15:03:45 <atai2> atai2 has joined #tt
15:03:48 <nigel> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/53
15:05:33 <nigel> Nigel: AOB or other points
15:05:40 <nigel> Glenn: 10 seconds on PR #1096 on TTML2
15:05:41 <nigel> Nigel: OK
15:06:22 <nigel> Glenn: If we can handle that right now, all I want to do is remind Cyril to review it.
15:06:28 <nigel> Cyril: I know, I will get to it today.
15:06:31 <nigel> Glenn: Thank you, that's all.
15:06:35 <nigel> Topic: WebVTT
15:07:19 <nigel> Gary: The main thing that's left is basically deciding if PR #460 is good to go and I can start to work with Philippe
15:07:26 <nigel> .. to get it through the CR process.
15:07:57 <nigel> Topic: New snapshot with new at-risk items webvtt#460
15:07:59 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/pull/460
15:08:34 <nigel> Gary: This has the change for making the region lines a regular long from unsigned long
15:08:53 <nigel> .. as well as the change to clamp the lines property to the closest value that can be represented
15:09:08 <nigel> .. It also adds the at-risk items.
15:09:54 <nigel> Nigel: Looks like the last significant change was 14 days ago and the positive review was older.
15:10:07 <nigel> Gary: Yes, this incorporates changes that Silvia has also approved from other PRs.
15:10:21 <nigel> .. The biggest change is the rounding, where I looked at the HTML spec to see how to do it and want someone
15:10:26 <nigel> .. else to look at it and check it's okay.
15:10:35 <nigel> Nigel: Nobody has done that yet?
15:10:48 <nigel> Gary: Silvia approved #470 which was the PR that introduced this, nobody else has.
15:10:56 <nigel> .. If we're okay with just Silvia then we can go ahead.
15:11:26 <nigel> Nigel: #470 was 17 days ago and Silvia approved it the same day.
15:11:49 <nigel> .. In this situation it has had 2 weeks and a positive review so we normally say go ahead and do it.
15:11:55 <nigel> Gary: Awesome I'll go ahead then.
15:12:04 <nigel> Nigel: What's the state of the tests for this?
15:12:24 <nigel> Gary: I need to update the Lines PR to match it, to split the rounded and clamped/unclamped values but now we don't
15:12:32 <nigel> .. need to verify the unclamped values and can delete that portion.
15:12:50 <nigel> .. I was going to use the CR time to look through and fix VTT.js implementation and whatnot to get the other things in
15:12:52 <nigel> .. the IR to pass.
15:13:36 <nigel> Nigel: From our normal process we can just go ahead at this point. Any objections?
15:13:42 <nigel> Nigel: Silence, so go ahead.
15:13:47 <nigel> Gary: Then I'll proceed, thanks.
15:14:21 <nigel> Topic: Eliminate inconsistent use of xsd:nonNegativeInteger (#983). w3c/ttml2#1135
15:14:32 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1135
15:15:36 <cyril> cyril has joined #tt
15:15:46 <cyril> rrsagent, pointer
15:15:46 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2019/08/01-tt-irc#T15-15-46
15:15:53 <nigel> Nigel: I added this to the agenda to discuss why we would move away from XSD defined types because generally
15:16:04 <nigel> .. speaking I feel we should use XSD defined types where they meet our needs.
15:16:07 <cyril> scribe: cyril
15:16:17 <cyril> nigel: this is your proposal glenn
15:16:30 <cyril> ... the first part is about the motivation
15:16:42 <cyril> ... the issue says there is non-consistency
15:16:57 <cyril> ... and the internal type does permit "-0"
15:17:07 <cyril> ... the consistency is a bit of a problem
15:17:23 <cyril> glenn: the introduction of xsd nonNegative in 3 places
15:17:42 <cyril> ... the data @length, chunk @length, and isd @size
15:17:48 <cyril> ... was an oversight from my side
15:18:00 <cyril> ... I failed to record that we had a non-negative-integer
15:18:19 <cyril> ... if you look at TTML2 1st
15:18:45 <cyril> ... you'll find 17 matches on <digit+>
15:18:59 <cyril> ... one of them is the definition of non-negative-integer
15:19:53 <nigel> q+ to note that in some places allowing the sign in numbers would be nonsensical, like in RGB values
15:19:54 <atai2> q+
15:19:58 <cyril> ... the only reason that we might want to have the xsd nonNegative is if we want +0 and -0 and +X be equal to X
15:20:23 <cyril> ... there is no reason to allow +0 or -0
15:20:34 <cyril> ... when we have a perfectly good type used in 17 places
15:20:58 <cyril> ... the other item is the introduction of xsd positiveInteger on the @version on isd
15:21:11 <cyril> ... in the text of the specification it already says the value must be greater than 0
15:21:12 <plh_> plh_ has joined #tt
15:21:50 <cyril> ... like repeatCount
15:22:01 <pal> pal has joined #tt
15:22:08 <cyril> ... or numerator and denominator and framerate ...
15:22:13 <pal> q+
15:22:17 <plh_> present+
15:22:27 <pal> present+
15:22:42 <cyril> ... we should use the same mechanism
15:22:57 <cyril> ... I checked in today a series of test
15:23:03 <cyril> ... based on the proposed change
15:23:21 <cyril> ... I don't see a risk of making this non-backwards compatible change
15:23:33 <cyril> ... I'm very confident it's going to affect anybody
15:23:43 <cyril> s/it's going/it's not going/
15:23:51 <cyril> nigel: I did a quick scan
15:24:09 <cyril> ... and in the place where the internal type is used, it would make no sense to use the xsd type
15:24:31 <nigel> ack ni
15:24:31 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to note that in some places allowing the sign in numbers would be nonsensical, like in RGB values
15:24:37 <cyril> ... although I like the idea of using xsd types, I'm happy to make this change
15:24:42 <nigel> ack atai
15:24:47 <cyril> atai2: I want to understand the change
15:25:17 <cyril> ... so it's replacing a type with a more relaxed type
15:25:28 <cyril> ... that would increase the number of false positive during validation
15:25:39 <cyril> nigel: we add pattern constraints on some xsd strings
15:25:47 <cyril> ... maybe we could do that here too
15:26:37 <cyril> glenn: if we remove the optional sign, it's restricting the number of lexical representations, no increasing it
15:26:55 <cyril> ... one of the recent commit was to add more pattern
15:27:10 <cyril> ... I agree the current schema had been a bit inconsistent in that regard
15:27:19 <cyril> ... but I note that the schema is not normative
15:27:26 <nigel> q?
15:27:43 <cyril> ... my intent in this PR is to make things a bit more consistent
15:28:03 <nigel> ack pal
15:28:28 <cyril> pal: do these changes make TTML closer to CSS?
15:28:45 <cyril> glenn: none of these attributes are in the domain of CSS, they are not properties
15:29:02 <nigel> q?
15:29:08 <cyril> pal: so I don't have a strong opinion
15:29:23 <cyril> nigel: any objection to go ahead with this change?
15:29:32 <cyril> ... hearing none, let's proceed
15:29:45 <cyril> glenn: I would appreciate your final review nigel
15:29:53 <cyril> ... like missing pattern
15:30:24 <cyril> Topic: TTML Tests
15:30:46 <cyril> nigel: I want to alert people that there are a number of open PR on TTML test repo
15:30:54 <cyril> ... I like the approach of adding tests with PR on the spec
15:31:16 <cyril> ... a concrete example was about base64 encoded chunks of data
15:31:34 <cyril> ... where the spec change is to strip off spaces before passing it to the decoder
15:31:45 <cyril> ... and test does that by applying character entities
15:31:55 <cyril> ... that was a good thought exercise
15:32:10 <cyril> ... please do take a look at them and see if they match your expectations
15:34:29 <cyril> Topic: 3D extensions
15:34:42 <cyril> nigel: andreas wanted some clarifications about the next steps
15:34:56 <cyril> atai2: we continued the discussion for the requirements for 360 subtitles
15:35:06 <cyril> ... we are in a state where we can start drafting
15:35:11 <cyril> ... some specification text
15:35:19 <cyril> ... the question is about the right procedure
15:35:42 <cyril> ... I think that more people outside of this group are interested and may want to contribute
15:35:49 <cyril> ... it may be difficult to contribute
15:36:11 <cyril> ... there was the option to have a discussion in the WICG
15:36:22 <cyril> ... my thinking is to bring it to that CG
15:36:34 <cyril> ... but I don't know how it connects to this WG
15:36:41 <cyril> ... I want to make an explainer for the tag
15:36:47 <cyril> ... and draft a TTML module
15:37:01 <cyril> ... I could start over as a TTML module in the CG for example
15:37:22 <plh> --> https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/40 Requirements for subtitles and text in WebXR
15:37:28 <cyril> ... and as plh is on the call, it'd be good to have a discussion on the interaction between the groups
15:37:43 <atsushi> my understanding of WICG is quite wide range of gathering (and no strong organization), and it should be fine to file new proposal as issue to the repository
15:37:48 <cyril> nigel: not sure why it would be difficult for people to contribute?
15:37:53 <cyril> ... are they not W3C members?
15:38:18 <cyril> atai2: the idea is that people active in W3C could contribute and would be motivated to contribute
15:38:35 <cyril> ... and having another place than the TTWG would be helpful for that
15:38:41 <cyril> ... and also for non-member
15:39:01 <cyril> ... they can comment on github issues but that's not sufficient, they would need to be invited members
15:39:12 <cyril> ... so having a community group would be helpful
15:39:38 <cyril> plh: the link above is to where some discussions are happening
15:39:49 <cyril> ... in terms of doing incubation in CG, it is encouraged
15:40:00 <cyril> ... using WICG means you don't have to create a new CG
15:40:27 <cyril> ... people in the CG if they make an actual contribution will have to adhere to the contributing agreement
15:40:54 <cyril> ... if you want to have people from accessibility, the difficulty is to find the right time to switch to a WG
15:41:01 <cyril> ... and there is no formula for that
15:41:17 <cyril> ... if it is still an idea and trying different options, a CG is fine
15:41:42 <atai2> q+
15:41:44 <cyril> ... if it becomes a very serious idea, and you need a WG, at that time we need to check if the TTWG is good or not
15:42:17 <cyril> ... there was an inclusive XR workshop happening in NY and there was interest and discussions on captioning
15:42:44 <nigel> ack at
15:42:45 <cyril> ... the CG option is the safest approach in my opinion
15:42:54 <cyril> atai2: the idea is quite clear
15:43:33 <cyril> ... the requirements got clearer
15:43:46 <cyril> ... we need more experts on making it work
15:43:54 <cyril> ... we have a pretty good scope
15:44:11 <cyril> plh: the challenge is making sure that the right people are there
15:44:31 <cyril> ... most of the people were not aware that W3C was working on that
15:44:44 <cyril> atai2: the TTML module would define a basic
15:44:52 <cyril> ... vocabulary
15:45:01 <cyril> plh: you are assuming people want to use TTML
15:45:08 <cyril> atai2: it's obvious
15:45:15 <cyril> plh: to you, not to everybody
15:45:29 <cyril> atai2: in the Web Community call, that was the response
15:45:42 <cyril> ... we found no other group or context to specify a solution for this requirement
15:45:43 <plh> s/not to/may not to/
15:46:24 <cyril> plh: it seems the choice is either the WICG or to create your own CG
15:46:38 <cyril> atai2: no the choice is either the WICG or the TTWG directly
15:46:52 <cyril> ... in the community group, we might attract more experts
15:47:12 <cyril> atai2: one more question
15:47:20 <cyril> ... nigel asked for explainers for TTML
15:47:34 <cyril> ... are there explainers for other features submitted to TTML?
15:47:46 <cyril> nigel: the one for the AD profile exists
15:47:59 <nigel> -> https://w3ctag.github.io/explainers TAG template for Explainers
15:48:01 <nigel> -> https://github.com/w3c/tt-reqs/wiki
15:48:02 <cyril> cyril: the karaoke module also has an explainer
15:49:02 <cyril> Topic: TTML over RTP IETF draft
15:49:21 <cyril> nigel: there is an IETF process point called WGLC (last call)
15:49:36 <cyril> ... at the IETF 105 meeting, this was brought up
15:49:45 <cyril> ... and the WGLC lapsed without comment
15:49:55 <cyril> ... the chair asked that even if there was no comment
15:50:15 <cyril> ... that this group would say that all comments have been taken into account
15:50:19 <cyril> ... what I propose to do
15:50:29 <cyril> ... is to say that there are no further comment
15:50:39 <cyril> ... do people agree or take extra time?
15:51:04 <cyril> nigel: all of Mike's comments have been addressed
15:51:41 <cyril> ... seeing nothing more, I will take that as Yes, TTWG has no furhter commenbts on the document
15:51:46 <cyril> Topic: TPAC Planning
15:51:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Glenn, Pierre, Gary, Atsushi, Atsushi_irc-only, Andreas, Cyril, plh_, pal
15:52:01 <nigel> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2019 TPAC 2019 planning wiki
15:52:04 <cyril> nigel: there is now a wiki page, thanks atsushi
15:52:13 <cyril> pal: on the topic of liaisons and TPAC
15:52:35 <cyril> ... what's happening to add a new subtitle class to CLDR
15:52:59 <cyril> ... the unicode effort to create/document characteristics of languages across the world
15:53:09 <nigel> -> https://unicode-org.atlassian.net/browse/CLDR-8915 Our ticket on Unicode CLDR
15:53:13 <cyril> ... today CLDR has examples of character used for all languages
15:53:20 <cyril> ... they don't include examples for subtitles
15:53:31 <cyril> ... they had made a liaison
15:53:58 <cyril> ... and we recommended unicode to add examples to CLDR
15:54:02 <cyril> ... that was 4 years ago
15:54:12 <cyril> ... maybe TPAC is a good time to revive that
15:54:34 <cyril> nigel: I checked a ticket on CLDR and some comments were made in May
15:54:43 <cyril> ... Addison asked for some more work
15:55:02 <cyril> ... happy to add this topic at TPAC
15:55:11 <cyril> pal: maybe we should follow up before?
15:55:21 <cyril> plh: do we need Addison or Richard Ishida?
15:55:31 <cyril> glenn: or Mark from Google
15:55:44 <cyril> nigel: I'll give myself a task to get in touch with Addison
15:56:07 <nigel> -> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/59 TTWG issue 59
15:56:28 <cyril> nigel: both things make sense: get in touch and follow up at TPAC
15:56:43 <cyril> s/Mark/Mark Davis/
15:57:19 <cyril> nigel: we will be collecting topics for TPAC, please add you names to the participants list
15:57:27 <cyril> ... if you haven't registered yet, please do
15:57:40 <cyril> ... registration is only until Sept 6th
15:57:46 <cyril> glenn: I'm registered
15:58:00 <nigel> q?
15:58:02 <cyril> Topic: TTWG Charter status update
15:58:28 <cyril> plh: the good news is that I had approval from the Director yesterday
15:58:38 <cyril> ... I'm in the process of preparing the call for review
15:58:44 <cyril> ... for the AC
15:58:52 <plh> https://www.w3.org/2019/08/ttwg-proposed-charter.html
15:59:18 <cyril> ... I merged the PR as asked by the director
15:59:24 <cyril> ... it's ready to ship for review
15:59:41 <cyril> nigel: we did not seem completely happy with some parts of it (the review part)
15:59:48 <cyril> ... we should make sure we look at that
15:59:49 <cyril> plh: yes
16:00:01 <cyril> ... you may grumble about the horizontal review
16:00:15 <cyril> nigel: I see you added "before entire CR
16:00:24 <cyril> s/entire/entering/
16:00:32 <nigel> s/CR/first CR
16:00:40 <cyril> plh: people can make comments as part of the AC review
16:00:49 <nigel> q?
16:01:15 <nigel> Topic: Karaoke model
16:01:24 <nigel> scribe: nigel
16:01:36 <nigel> Cyril: Reminder please look at this - I have received no comments yet
16:01:47 <nigel> Pierre: Is there an easy way to preview it?
16:01:54 <nigel> Cyril: I will make sure there's a render somewhere.
16:01:54 <cyril> s/model/module/
16:01:58 <nigel> Pierre: Thanks
16:02:10 <atai2> atai2 has left #tt
16:02:16 <nigel> Topic: Meeting close
16:02:34 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're at time and have just completed the agenda. See you next week. [adjourns meeting]
16:02:38 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/01-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:17:13 <nigel> Present- pal, plh_
16:17:16 <nigel> Present+ Philippe
16:17:26 <nigel> Regrets: none
16:18:42 <nigel> github-bot, end topic
16:20:05 <nigel> s/open PR on TTML test/open PRs on TTML test
16:22:24 <nigel> s/seeing nothing more, I will take that as Yes, TTWG has no furhter commenbts on the document/hearing nothing more, I will take that as Yes, TTWG has no further comments on the document
16:24:24 <nigel> s/I see you added "before entering first CR/I see you added "first" in "before first entering CR" addressing my issue, thank you for that.
16:24:43 <nigel> s/github-bot, end topic//
16:24:49 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:24:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/01-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:27:43 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:27:45 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:27:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/01-tt-minutes.html nigel
18:25:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tt
22:37:38 <plh> plh has joined #tt