15:05:16 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:05:16 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-tt-irc 15:05:18 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:05:18 Zakim has joined #tt 15:05:20 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:05:20 Date: 11 July 2019 15:05:36 Present: Philippe, Andreas, Atsushi, Gary, Glenn, Pierre, Nigel 15:05:38 Chair: Nigel 15:05:43 Regrets: Cyril 15:05:59 scribeNick: plh 15:06:22 nigel has changed the topic to: TTWG weekly webex. Today 1500 UTC. Agenda for 2019-07-11: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/47 15:06:25 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/47 15:06:31 Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-tt-irc 15:06:43 Topic: This meeting 15:06:55 Nigel: we have some status on WebVTT to cover 15:07:06 Gary: not much progress. let's drop it. 15:07:11 Nigel: an issue on IMSC 15:07:17 ... and a PR on TTML2 15:07:21 ... and status update on charter 15:07:26 ... any other business? 15:07:37 Pierre: there is 1127 on TTML2 15:07:46 Nigel: does it need prep? 15:07:59 Pierre: would be good to start the discussion on how to extend TTML2 15:08:16 Nige: ok 15:08:35 Pierre: also we need to approve the corrections on IMSC 1.1 15:08:45 s/Nige/Nigel/ 15:08:53 Nigel: ok. 15:09:02 Pierre: those were typos in IMSC 1.1 15:09:34 Pierre: the PRs on IMSC 1.2 needs to be backported on IMSC 1.1 15:09:43 Pierre: also TPAC prep 15:10:16 Topic: IMSC 15:10:27 s/IMSC/tts:extent, region and the style element imsc#475 15:10:28 Nigel: that's IMSC issue #475 15:10:33 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/475 15:11:12 Nigel: one of them if whether it's ok to include an element style 15:11:34 ... and the syntax permitted in the extend attribute 15:11:46 ... 2 possible interpretation in the spec 15:12:16 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml-imsc1.1/#text-extent-region §8.4.2 of IMSC 1.1 15:13:12 [...] 15:13:41 Glenn: two 2 issues, style element child of region 15:13:47 ... and one of the values of extend 15:14:08 ... constrained by #extend-region 15:15:23 Nigel: let's settle the most recent one first 15:15:42 ... values of the extend attribute 15:16:01 ... does anyone disagree that the intent was to disallow auto? 15:16:14 Pierre: looked back at my notes and that was the case 15:16:29 Nigel: are you clear on the editorial change? 15:16:42 Pierre: happy to clarify this in my proposal. it's there already 15:17:22 Glenn: one alternative: ... 15:18:04 Pierre: that proposal doesn't take into account the issue raised my Cyril. to permit referenced styling as well as nested 15:18:14 Glenn: ok. happy to amend my proposal 15:18:31 Pierre: I'll take that into account when generating the PR 15:18:52 Nigel: ok. we prohibit auto and we allow nested style element 15:19:15 ... is that true for extend origin? 15:19:25 ... we talk about position attributes... 15:19:50 ... the problem is the constraint on the element 15:20:22 Pierre: we could interpret it as forbidding referencial and nested style. smae thing for position. 15:20:29 s/smae/same/ 15:20:47 Nigel: whether it's style or region doesn't make a difference. 15:21:06 Pierre: if we use the term specified value, we'll want to do the same for origin and position 15:21:16 q? 15:21:51 Pierre: what about default region? 15:22:02 ... my proposal addresses it as well 15:22:09 Nigel: I'll review it in the PR 15:22:47 Pierre: in an image profile, there must be a region. a default region can only exist if there is no images 15:23:31 ... there is text related to width/height depending on the region element, thus implying there is a region 15:24:12 Nige: we should adjust to say it's the specified extent of the region element... 15:24:22 s/Nige/Nigel/ 15:24:35 Pierre: I'll address it in the PR as well 15:25:01 Nigel: summary: Pierre will create a PR to address all of the points on the issue 15:25:45 Pierre: corrections for IMSC 1.1 15:25:54 github-bot, end topic 15:26:00 s/Pierre/Topic 15:26:15 pal has joined #tt 15:26:26 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2019Jun/0075.html email 15:26:51 Pierre: apply those commits to the IMSC 1 REC 15:27:16 Nigel: first one fix the reference to TTML2. second fixes a bug in a regex. 15:27:22 ... second one is informative 15:28:21 q+ 15:28:27 Proposal: update the IMSC 1.1 Recommendation with the fixes in https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2019Jun/0075.html 15:28:44 ack glenn 15:28:59 Glenn: should we have an errata for those? 15:29:07 Nigel: we do have an errata process 15:29:56 Plh: the changes were minor enough not to require through the errata 15:30:49 q? 15:31:07 Resolved: update the IMSC 1.1 Rec 15:32:03 Topic: TTML1 #1101 15:32:09 s/TTML1/TTML2/ 15:32:15 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1101 15:32:44 Nigel: proposal is to move ahead with the changes but with shortening the text in the note 15:33:14 Proposa: make the changes in #1101 with a shortert note reference 15:33:19 Resolved 15:33:27 s/Proposa/Proposal/ 15:33:34 s/shortert/shorter/ 15:33:49 Glenn: I'll need someone to approve the PR 15:33:54 Nigel: sure 15:34:44 ... was just holding until we have group consensus. will merge as-is. 15:35:08 ... will close relevant issues as well 15:35:36 Pierre: I guess we'll close #1100 and part of #1043 15:35:55 ... do we want to keep #1043 but narrow the scope to the style properties? 15:36:24 ... not all style properties have been taken care of 15:36:34 ... so we open a new issue or narrow #1043 15:36:46 Nigel: let's open a new one 15:36:51 q+ 15:37:07 ... will need some discussion with the CSS WG 15:37:27 ... make sure to double check #0143 before closing it and open a new one. 15:37:40 ack glenn 15:38:18 Glenn: this doesn't close #1043. also we should have 3 separate issues for the style properties 15:38:25 ... will be a lot easier 15:38:38 ... I would prefer to be the one to create them 15:38:43 Pierre: sure. 15:39:38 Pierre: we should close #1071 15:39:43 Nigel: ok 15:40:38 s/this doesn't close/ok to close/ 15:41:28 Pierre: I'll wait for #1100 to be closed and the 3 news ones to be open before closing #1071 15:42:59 Glenn: let's reopn #0189 15:43:07 s/reopn/reopen/ 15:43:51 s/0189/1089/ 15:44:51 ... I'll merge 1101 and 1089 after the call 15:45:18 Pierre: for bidi, you might want to create one issue instead of 2 15:45:23 Glenn: sure. 15:45:56 Nigel: looking #1127 15:46:16 github-bot, end topic 15:46:30 Topic: Supporting "not within an EM" at text-combine-upright and tts:textCombine for 縦中横 'tate-chu-yoko' ttml2#1127 15:46:41 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1127 15:46:50 q? 15:47:16 Glenn: this started as a question which I answered with the current state. we allow both. 15:47:31 ... impls can choose any techniques they want 15:47:39 ... we don't give a preference 15:48:06 ... the commenter asked for an enhancement 15:48:12 ... so it's a request for a new feature 15:48:21 ... should be added to TTML3 15:48:38 ... comes under our ruby extension module 15:48:49 ... but we would be ahead of CSS 15:49:14 ... so, couldn't translate into CSS if we do this 15:49:34 Nigel: requirement is for enhancement for japanese subtitles 15:49:43 -> https://github.com/w3c/tt-reqs/issues/12 Enhancements for Japanese subtitles 15:50:17 ... we agreed to work with the CSS Working Group on this requirement 15:50:38 Pierre: sounds good. 15:50:55 ... I think it's a use case. does anybody think it's not a valid use case? 15:51:24 Glenn: I worked in the print industry in the past, with explicit author control for this type of behaviors 15:51:35 ... it's out there in the industry 15:51:57 ... content creators would think they should be be able to do the same. 15:52:11 ... at the same time, TTMl2 is reasonable 15:52:40 ... some impls will go outside the em 15:53:07 ... so I'm ok to keep as-is but also ok with enhancing if CSS are ok with it 15:53:17 Pierre: would be good to share your experience 15:53:38 ... citing those use cases will be important to help the CSS WG make a decision 15:53:44 Glenn: sure 15:54:17 Glenn: Steve Zilles did research on this in the past and wrote documents about this 15:54:48 Pierre: let's add the data points before communicating with the CSS WG 15:54:51 Glenn: ok 15:57:07 SUMMARY: TTWG will look at this in the context of a future Japanese enhancement module for TTML, in consultation with the CSS WG 15:57:13 github-bot, end topic 15:57:39 Pierre: can we open an issue on the TTWG repo on those CSS issues? 15:57:54 ... we have on text level 4 15:58:08 ... #50 15:58:38 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/50 Check with CSS WG about Text Level 4 16:00:29 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/52 Discussion points for CSS WG at TPAC 2019 #52 16:00:30 Nigel: I opened #52 16:01:13 Topic: Charter status 16:01:16 scribe: nigel 16:01:30 plh: Aim to get submission to AC on Wednesday next week. Under review by W3M. 16:01:43 .. I sent two pull requests, one going against the views of the group about the charter template. 16:01:54 .. The HR wording surprised people, so I thought we should revert. 16:02:08 .. I made it as a pull request. I am aware that our strategy team talked about it earlier this week 16:02:17 .. so I don't know which wording will be sent for review. 16:02:27 .. At the end of the day you guys will have another chance to push back during the AC review. 16:02:59 .. Another piece of info - the accessibility people never commented on the Charter even though I didn't ask them. 16:03:12 .. They got scared about the danmaku proposal in the Chinese IG charter. 16:03:28 .. I told them I believe the new Charter will allow TTWG to work on it without rechartering. 16:03:40 .. My position is until we know it is an actual thing for the TTWG we should not list it in the Charter. 16:03:45 .. And we don't have a document to link to. 16:04:01 Pierre: A number of us have tried to get more information even privately but have not got any information. 16:04:14 plh: The Chinese IG is working on translating their document into English. 16:04:20 .. We want to motivate them to come to TPAC prepared. 16:04:32 .. It could also be in the scope of the Media WG because their proposal mentions APIs. 16:04:38 .. It is very much up in the air still. 16:04:47 Pierre: I don't see APIs being outside the scope of this group. 16:04:56 Philippe: Current thinking is to have the discussion at TPAC. 16:05:12 .. Our Chinese team has been reaching out to the Media WG but it is quite new so it may take a while. 16:05:29 .. We should either host a meeting during the TTWG session at TPAC or go to the Media WG room. 16:05:35 .. We want the Chinese IG to present their proposal. 16:05:52 Pierre: I will be at TPAC Tuesday through Thursday. 16:06:04 plh: I will try to make sure it happens on Thursday 16:06:23 .. I can't offer Wednesday because people don't like reserved spaces during the breakout 16:06:32 .. Of course someone could raise it on the Wednesday at the time 16:06:53 Glenn: On APIs we actually had two API draft documents that never went anywhere in TTML2 for defining APIs for 16:07:11 .. a TimedTextCue interface based on Text Track Cue, so we did start some work before. 16:07:33 plh: Also for those APIs depending on how much they monkey-patch the HTML algorithm the WHATWG may claim it is 16:07:36 .. part of HTML. 16:07:51 Pierre: That could be an end result but we have tried to work so hard to align the work of timed text in this group so 16:08:04 .. we should not go backwards, even if we submit a complete proposal to the HTML WG or WHATWG or whatever. 16:08:16 plh: I expect us to make good progress on TPAC but not to affect our Charter. 16:08:36 .. Unless you guys tell us otherwise. 16:08:48 Nigel: I don't expect that, because we can't - we don't even know the requirements. 16:09:01 plh: OK. The accessibility guys are excited about it and want to be part of the discussion. 16:09:22 Pierre: We will need to coordinate with Digital Cinema as we have done before because that is widely used in China. 16:10:12 Topic: Next meeting 16:10:26 Nigel: let's defer TPAC prep to next week 16:11:01 .. Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting] 16:11:10 .. PS thank you Philippe for scribing 16:11:15 rrsagent, make minutes 16:11:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:12:46 atai2 has left #tt 16:19:57 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:20:05 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:20:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-tt-minutes.html nigel 18:02:50 Zakim has left #tt 20:01:46 plh_ has joined #tt