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15:49:47 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:49:47 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
15:49:47 <ivan> Chair: luc
15:49:47 <ivan> Date: 2019-07-02
15:49:47 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2019Jul/0000.html
15:49:47 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-07-02: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2019Jul/0000.html
15:49:48 <ivan> Regrets+ dauwhe
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15:57:48 <laudrain> present+
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16:00:47 <Karen_> present+ Karen
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16:01:27 <George> present+
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16:01:50 <tzviya> present+
16:01:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:01:53 <Avneesh> present+
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16:02:12 <ivan> present+
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16:02:25 <jeff> present+
16:03:22 <rkwright> Very noisy here but I'll volunteer next time.
16:03:28 <tzviya> scribenick: George
16:03:28 <ivan> scribe+ George
16:03:34 <George> scribe: George
16:03:57 <ivan> chair: liisamk
16:04:45 <George> Liisa chairing
16:04:46 <George> Report for PBG inJapan
16:04:47 <ivan> present+ Daihei
16:04:57 <wendyreid> present+
16:05:28 <George> Why not have the Japanese publishers present at the meeting.
16:05:28 <wolfgang> s/PBG/PBG F2F/
16:05:32 <garth> garth has joined #pbg
16:05:38 <garth> present+ Garth
16:05:54 <George> looking at 5 to 6 items for the agenda. We will get these out and ask to polish.
16:06:04 <wolfgang> s /inJapan/in Japan/
16:06:25 <George> We plan to have both English to Japanese and Japanese to English.
16:06:36 <George> We are also working on the AV requirements.
16:07:08 <George> The next thing is who will participate in the discussion between W3C members and the publishing community.
16:07:27 <George> We can share the interest in publishing at the W3C with others.
16:07:41 <George> Invited guests will be present.
16:08:00 <George> Next week we will have more details that I will be able to share.
16:08:31 <George> We have a question about people who are not W3C members.
16:08:42 <George> Who would we like to have a s guests?
16:08:58 <George> Do we have some Japanese publishers as guests.
16:09:01 <wolfgang> s/a s guests/as guests/
16:09:23 <Rachel> Rachel has joined #pbg
16:09:35 <Rachel> present+
16:09:46 <George> Next topic from PWG on the future discussions.
16:10:20 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2019/2019-07-01-pwg.html
16:10:21 <George> Tzviya: Over the last weeks chairs have raised concerns with Jeff, Ralph, and Dave.
16:11:10 <George> , but there was lack luster participation.Our biggest concern is that we agreed to move forward with PWG
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16:12:13 <George> We submitted a proposal to suspend work right now and publish it as a "noThis would leave the door open for future profiles such as manga, etc.
16:12:42 <George> We just published 3.2 in the CG and we need to figure out what happens next.
16:12:58 <George> We decided to move forward with the audio book specification.
16:13:05 <wolfgang> s/"noThis/WG Note - "This/
16:13:37 <George> There is a lot of discussion that needs to take place to make decisions on what to do.
16:13:39 <George> Other comments?
16:13:39 <laudrain> q+
16:13:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:14:01 <garth> q+
16:14:02 <liisamk> ack laudrain
16:14:06 <Rachel> q+
16:14:08 <George> Luc: I understand that in the proposal that web publications would be a note.
16:14:24 <George> The audio book specification would be a rec in itself.
16:14:30 <laurent_> laurent_ has joined #pbg
16:14:47 <ivan> q+
16:14:57 <laurent_> present+ laurent
16:15:00 <George> The other profiles for manga, comics, text.
16:15:24 <George> We originally thought that EPUB 4 would be a packaged version of a web publication.
16:15:56 <rkwright> George:  I think multiple lines for each speaker are supposed to be preceded by an ellipsis ...
16:16:04 <George> .What is the plan for packaging in the future
16:16:34 <George> Ivan spocke about timing being a problem.
16:16:48 <wolfgang> s/spocke/spoke/
16:16:55 <George> Is it possible to have several specifications starting with the audio book spec.
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16:17:04 <wendyreid> q+
16:17:26 <George> We see the proposal to suspend the work, but there is other approaches.
16:17:29 <liisamk> ack garth
16:17:51 <George> Garth: We will publish it as a not and this allows us to return to it later.
16:18:05 <wolfgang> s/not/note/
16:18:51 <George> We will take the portions of the specification and apply this toaudio book specification. We take the core of web publications and combining it with what we need for audio books.
16:19:09 <George> This approach addresses current business needs.
16:19:11 <wolfgang> s/toaudio/to audio/
16:19:50 <jeff> q+ to ask about the consistency of "taking the core of web publications" with not taking the part relative to "living natively on the web"
16:20:24 <liisamk> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:20:25 <George> We can take this approach and appy it to other types of content.
16:20:31 <Avneesh> q+
16:20:40 <wolfgang> s/appy/apply/
16:21:16 <George> Bill: the Melan foundation has funded several projects that in effect are working on publications that includes web technologies.
16:21:26 <garth> q?
16:21:27 <laurent_> q+
16:21:33 <tzviya> s/Mellon/Melan
16:21:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/Melan/Mellon
16:21:38 <liisamk> ack Rachel
16:21:47 <George> It is important that we do not communicate that we are giving up  on web publications.
16:22:13 <George> Rachel: Ivan clarify the difference between a recommendation and a note.
16:22:18 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:22:21 <tzviya> q+ to ask bill how we can continue the work on WP in a way that will help all those orgs?
16:22:46 <George> Ivan: The note does not represent concensis and it has not gone through the rigrious testing and implementation.
16:22:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/web technologies./web technologies and in effect are creating complex publications on the web./
16:23:02 <wolfgang> s/consensis/consensus/
16:23:14 <wendyreid> q-
16:23:34 <George> At a later date time, a note can be taken up and moved forward.
16:24:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> For the record those projects include ones at Stanford, Univ. of California, Minnesota, Michigan, NYU and others.
16:24:26 <George> Ivan: Looking at what Garth said, we have to understand in tech terms what we propose and what we do not propose.
16:24:44 <George> Audio books are not intended to be delivered on the web.
16:24:58 <George> Audio books are intended to be packaged and delivered.
16:25:00 <laurent_> s/delivered/created
16:25:51 <George> Web publications on the web on the other hand have many requirements, including security, and index file, and eventually a web browser should understand.
16:26:39 <George> There is a large part of the document (note) that has terms, rules, and is a separate part of the document.
16:27:09 <George> Another portion of the document deals with security, the origin and a special implementation on the web.
16:28:04 <George> The manifest and the processing on the web. The web part is the one we do not have concensis on. The manifest part is the part we can reuse.on and
16:28:25 <wolfgang> s/consensis/consensus/
16:28:28 <George> The manifest part and the audio book specific items is what we can promote.
16:28:46 <George> We may be able to use the manifest with other content.
16:28:49 <wolfgang> s/reuse.on/reuse/
16:29:11 <wendyreid> q+
16:29:19 <George> Are thought is at the moment, this is all that the community wants.
16:29:34 <wolfgang> s/Are/Our/
16:29:43 <George> The manifest part is good and can be used.
16:30:08 <George> The core web part is what we will postphone until there is a time when there is more interest.
16:30:50 <tzviya> s/postphone/postpone
16:30:52 <George> The WG must discuss if the manifest can be reused and not integrated in to the audio books spec.
16:30:56 <George> Jeff:
16:30:58 <liisamk> ack jeff
16:30:58 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to ask about the consistency of "taking the core of web publications" with not taking the part relative to "living natively on the web"
16:31:27 <George> Rachel asked about the difference, but the W3C recommendation is a "Standard" and a note is not.
16:32:07 <garth> q?
16:32:43 <garth> q+
16:32:47 <George> Secondly, I am not sure that we should look at a spec made to work on the web and repurpose it for off line use.
16:34:05 <George> delivering an audio book speciation.Third, I see little support for the chartered activity
16:34:48 <George> Avneesh: We must be careful that we do not mismatch what we have in the charter  with what we are delivering in audio books.
16:35:25 <George> We must manage communication about the work we are doing. We need to carefully manage external communication.
16:35:41 <George> Why not extend the charter and do more things.
16:36:13 <wendyreid> +1
16:36:21 <garth> q?
16:36:22 <wolfgang> +1
16:36:31 <George> Whatever we do in the working group, which is for members, must deliver the business needs. The spec we write must be useful to their business needs.
16:36:32 <liisamk> ack Avneesh
16:36:32 <garth> ack Avneesh
16:36:36 <liisamk> ack laurent_
16:36:47 <ivan> ack laurent_
16:37:12 <ivan> q+
16:37:47 <George> we Laurent: I think we need to know about processing requirements for the web.
16:38:35 <wolfgang> scribe: wolfgang
16:38:52 <liisamk> ack tzviya
16:38:52 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask bill how we can continue the work on WP in a way that will help all those orgs?
16:39:08 <wolfgang> tzviya: a lot of people talking about potential uses of WPs
16:39:11 <laurent_> - We are missing a clear list of what is missing in the "core" WP work, that is not required for the audiobooks reco based on WP, either packaged or exposed on the Web. The WG should detail this before we move on.
16:39:11 <laurent_> - As Ivan said, most issues are linked to the native generation of a publication in a distributed Web environment, vs the exposure on the Web of a publication born on a desktop.
16:39:11 <laurent_> - The audiobook spec should be modular, with one module being the Manifest spec + processing on the Web.
16:39:11 <laurent_> - Also ebooks (text oriented ebooks, EPUB-like, with proper metadata) did not gather sufficient attention; even if we have business clues that samples are needed on the Web. I still think that a mapping from EPUB to an ebook WP profile is useful
16:39:29 <wolfgang> ... a publication that opens on the web
16:39:38 <laudrain> q?
16:40:20 <wolfgang> ... I agree that we need to make it clear that we are not ending our efforts - WP is not suitable for scholarly publications
16:41:22 <wolfgang> ... use cases mentioned are wonderful, but we need a spec that is more robust - we need better communication what we intend to do - I'm afraid this is not viable now
16:41:39 <liisamk> ack wendyreid
16:42:51 <wolfgang> wendyreid: I speak for myself - everything I heard yesterday and today is very frustrating - Audiobook gets more positive feedback, we should follow on
16:43:41 <garth> q?
16:44:19 <wolfgang> ... we believe in WP, but some people are now telling that want WP - we need book previews on the web - but people are not here, that tell us about their need for WP - trade publishing industry not ready for WP
16:44:26 <ivan> q-
16:44:38 <wolfgang> let's focus on EPUB, but WP is not yet ready!
16:44:42 <liisamk> ack garth
16:44:55 <laudrain> q+
16:45:51 <wolfgang> garth: Audiobooks will be natively on the Web - I hesitate to support any sugar-coding - no browser interest in WP - we suspend work on WP and publish it on a note
16:46:49 <wolfgang> ... manifest in JSON, etc. may be used in Audiobooks - may apply knowledge gained to other profiles in the future
16:46:55 <garth> q?
16:47:07 <liisamk> ack laudrain
16:47:13 <wolfgang> ... I'm not sure there's an industry need for WP instead of EPUB
16:48:51 <wolfgang> Laudrain: I want to acknowledge the work in the WG for WP - we do hope that Audiobook spec will be adopted - will bring confidence for W3C avtivity - should communicate carefully to enhance the work on WP that has been done
16:49:06 <Daihei> +1 to Luc
16:49:25 <wolfgang> ... future of EPUB is an ebook profile based on WP for publishing on the Web
16:49:33 <tzviya> q+ to respond to luc
16:49:35 <garth> q?
16:49:47 <wolfgang> ... EPUB is working well for the publsihing industry today
16:49:49 <liisamk> ack tzviya
16:49:49 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to respond to luc
16:49:51 <garth> ack tzviya
16:49:53 <laudrain> q+
16:50:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Tzviya
16:50:50 <wolfgang> tzviya: EPUB was wonderful for part of the publishing industry, not for the whole - scholarly needs sth completely different - maybe we should try to fill such gaps
16:51:03 <liisamk> ack laudrain
16:51:38 <garth> q+
16:52:16 <ivan> q+
16:52:36 <wolfgang> laudrain: I completely agree with you, tzviya. Why not having a WP profile for scholarly - future of EPUB is WP as WP for text - today we are having a rec for packaging
16:52:38 <liisamk> ack garth
16:52:40 <Daihei> +1 to Luc
16:53:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:53:28 <jeff> q+
16:53:47 <wolfgang> garth: respectfully disagree - the future of EPUB is WP is for me a very far future - don't see a business case for that in the short term, only in the long-term perspective
16:53:53 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:54:35 <Avneesh> q+ if there is time
16:54:50 <Avneesh> q+, if there is time
16:55:01 <garth> q?
16:55:09 <wolfgang> ivan: we don't have the same idea what a WP is - the packaging concept is not a packaging on the Web - we are talking about a packaged publication which relies on Web technologies much like EPUB
16:55:17 <jeff> q+ avneesh
16:56:26 <wolfgang> ... not part of the Web for a browser like an HTML page - Audiobook or WP is not the same as a publication on the Web - browser vendors are not interested
16:57:13 <wolfgang> ... the package containing web technology is web manifest plus content but not a web publication
16:57:24 <Daihei> q+
16:57:26 <liisamk> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:57:55 <wolfgang> BillK: we biggest impediment to a web-native EPUB is that there are millions of EPUBs already extant
16:58:29 <ivan> ack jeff
16:58:34 <laudrain> not so fundamental desgreement with Garth
16:58:39 <wolfgang> jeff: we need a common view - Luke and Garth have different conceptions
16:58:45 <liisamk> ack avnessh
16:58:48 <laudrain> So do it for you, Garth
16:58:53 <liisamk> ack avneesh
16:58:54 <ivan> ack Avneesh
16:59:43 <wolfgang> avneesh: marketing perspective - market research needed before the development of a new product - we should ask publishers in EPUB CG and ask whether we need 2 different versions
16:59:45 <liisamk> ack Daihei
17:00:58 <ivan> q+
17:01:03 <wolfgang> Daihei: EPUB is good enough for existing publishing - should be maintained - future uses may be different contexts than publishing
17:01:54 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/web-native EPUB/web-native EPUB for trade books/
17:01:54 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/07/02-pbg-minutes.html ivan