15:01:35 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:01:35 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/06/27-tt-irc 15:01:37 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:01:37 Zakim has joined #tt 15:01:39 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:01:39 Date: 27 June 2019 15:01:49 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/44 15:01:54 Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/06/27-tt-irc 15:03:28 Present: Gary, Andreas, Nigel 15:03:52 Regrets: Cyril, Pierre, Glenn 15:04:07 Present+ Philippe 15:04:09 scribe: nigel 15:04:23 Topic: This meeting 15:04:48 Nigel: Today we have WebVTT, and then AOB only, there were no issues marked for the agenda 15:04:56 .. where the right people would be present. 15:05:17 .. In AOB, we have Charter status update and Philippe wants to tell us about something from the Chinese IG. 15:05:23 .. Any other other business? 15:05:39 Topic: WebVTT 15:06:27 Gary: There is a new snapshot of the WebVTT repo that Silvia approved, which adds 15:06:32 q+ 15:06:41 .. the additional at risk items from the current implementation report, 15:06:53 .. and also swaps the unsigned long to be a regular long. 15:06:59 ack plh 15:07:09 Philippe: Just want to make sure we're doing the right things. 15:07:20 .. Following the CfC which didn't pass, I would have expected open issues for all the comments 15:07:34 .. raised during the CfC, and then address those comments either by doing what Gary is doing or other actions. 15:07:44 .. Did we make sure to record as issues all of the comments raised during the CfC? 15:07:50 Gary: I don't think all were made issues. 15:07:54 .. The big three are issues. 15:08:06 Philippe: It would be good to raise all of them as issues even if to be raised in v.next. 15:08:24 .. You should avoid publishing a CR, then getting a comment when we want to move to PR that something 15:08:27 .. was not addressed. 15:08:30 .. Do things by the book. 15:08:39 .. Raise all the issues, not typos, but anything else. 15:08:48 .. Apparently some decision was made about relative importance. 15:08:53 .. I want a record. 15:08:57 .. Issues is the easiest way. 15:09:04 .. In 3 months we can see what we did. 15:09:07 q+ 15:09:11 ack nigel 15:09:37 Nigel: Some of the decisions are recorded in minutes, it would be fine to copy those into issues also, for clarity and ease of reference. 15:09:53 Philippe: If you guys feel happy I'm not going to take a strong position. 15:10:05 Gary: I can go through the current things and open issues before we accept the current snapshot. 15:10:23 Philippe: We're not here just to do bureaucracy of course, it's important to open issues when it isn't clear. 15:10:33 Gary: Good to have issues so we do not forget about them. 15:10:45 Philippe: We can move to Rec with open issues if we decide to defer them 15:11:01 .. For things related to the IR I would not necessarily expect to find them as issues. 15:11:18 .. You're making choices on the spec, let's make sure that the WebVTT CG is clear what is happening. 15:12:27 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/51 TTWG #51 for Gary to check issues are opened. 15:13:02 Nigel: Any contentious issues? 15:13:13 Gary: A couple we may want to discuss further, we've definitely talked about the big ones. 15:13:26 .. As I open up issues I'll note the ones worth discussing and bring it up on the next call. 15:13:47 Nigel: Let me know agenda items by Tuesday so I can add them to the weekly call agenda please. 15:14:09 Philippe: I'm assuming the plan is to publish a CR and then a month later attempt again to move to PR? 15:14:10 Gary: Yes 15:14:19 Philippe: Great, hopefully this time we will have got it right. 15:15:14 Topic: AOB - Charter status update 15:15:23 Nigel: What's the status please? 15:15:37 Philippe: I haven't made progress. The Charter has not gone to W3M yet. 15:15:45 .. You should feel free to insult you if I don't get it done! 15:16:02 .. I am the blocker, I apologise for not getting it done. 15:16:14 .. It won't take me long, I've been struggling for time. 15:16:49 s/insult you/insult me 15:16:54 Nigel: You're asking me to insult you? 15:16:56 Philippe: Yes 15:17:07 Nigel: Er, your brain is full of flies. [said with humour] 15:17:27 .. OK, thanks for the update, please do try to progress it. 15:17:30 Philippe: OK 15:17:55 Topic: AOB - Chinese IG new requirements 15:18:03 Philippe: Here's a good new captioning issue. 15:18:26 .. Talking to the staff member looking at Chinese requirements, 15:18:34 q+ 15:18:41 .. they are potentially looking at a new captioning format! 15:18:50 .. I wonder what we can do to prevent it from happening. 15:19:04 .. Apparently there is a style of captioning used in Japan in China called dan-maku 15:19:17 .. They are claiming in their document that neither TTML nor WebVTT supports such a thing. 15:19:26 https://w3c-proposal-incubation.github.io/danmaku-proposal/ 15:19:26 https://www.w3.org/2019/03/23-chinese-web-media-summary.en.html#item10 15:19:26 https://www.w3.org/2019/04/09-ac-minutes.html#item01 15:19:56 .. The danmaku proposal is in Chinese. 15:20:13 .. They mean commentary subtitles. 15:20:22 .. Looking at two potential ways to address the issue. 15:20:26 .. 1. Create a new captioning format. 15:20:34 .. 2. Create some HTML extensions to do that thing 15:20:51 .. My question for this group is do we care? If we care, are they right when they say danmaku is not supported? 15:21:01 .. If they are correct, do we want to address the issue? 15:21:08 .. Do we need to create a communication channel with them? 15:21:51 Nigel: What is this about? I don't know what we're talking about. 15:22:06 Gary: It's a way to put comments directly on a place in the video. 15:23:05 Nigel: You can do positioning in WebVTT and TTML already, with some issues about viewports vs vision. 15:23:08 ack at 15:23:21 Andreas: I spoke with Angel in Quebec at the AC meeting. 15:23:33 .. I wrote an email to Pierre and Nigel and Angel addressing this and saying it is interesting work 15:23:42 .. and it is important that you provide the requirements to the group. 15:23:53 .. I made clear in the thread we do not want a new captioning format. 15:23:58 .. We did not continue this discussion. 15:24:10 .. First I think it is very important that their work feeds back to existing WGs 15:24:22 .. especially on this part. A more general question was discussed at the AC meeting. 15:24:34 .. If there is a Chinese IG it is good that local members can connect but they need to make it 15:24:48 .. accessible to the rest of the W3C ecosystem. It is a general issue to keep in mind. 15:25:08 .. On this issue it is definitely important that whatever they do we have a version that is accessible for other members 15:25:20 .. and it would be good if they sent it to this group so we can assess the requirements. 15:25:30 Philippe: Thank you for reminding me it was mentioned at the AC meeting. 15:26:04 .. I can help put pressure on the Chinese IG to document their use cases and requirements no later than TPAC 15:26:15 .. so we can invite them in the room to present their use cases and requirements for danmaku 15:26:18 Nigel: That would help 15:26:40 -> https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/ac-slides/cwig/cwig-progress.pdf 15:26:50 Nigel: Angel's slides describe this better. 15:28:26 .. It looks like they want to position and synchronise and animate text and that is possible in TTML2 already. 15:28:36 Philippe: They want browser support. 15:28:49 Nigel: They can use TTML2 in browsers if they bring in additional code. 15:28:59 .. We can't require browser makers to do work. 15:29:22 Philippe: I agree. They can influence browser makers to implement code so we could tell them to use TTML2. 15:29:37 .. If they are willing to put resources in it then they can do something. 15:29:47 .. I will tell them to focus on the use cases and requirements. 15:30:00 .. We should set ourselves a timeline of "by TPAC have both communities in the same room" 15:30:05 Nigel: That sounds like a good plan. 15:30:25 .. Just for completeness, IGs cannot make Technical Reports can they? 15:30:33 q+ 15:30:43 Philippe: They can make IG Notes out of the patent policy but they cannot make Recommendations. 15:30:53 .. That doesn't mean we can ignore it. 15:30:55 ack at 15:31:11 Andreas: From my recollection their process was they wanted to discuss and elaborate and work out what they need 15:31:31 .. and my impression was that they not only will gather requirements before bringing it to the membership but also 15:31:41 .. have it in a spec-like draft. I think that is not something an IG should do. 15:31:51 Philippe: They are going to do it if they want to. We cannot prevent them. 15:32:01 .. We cannot use the Process to stop them! 15:32:09 .. It is good this is happening in W3C. 15:32:25 Andreas: It is interesting to find a way to deal with it in a way that helps international standardisation. 15:32:45 Philippe: Absolutely. We should get their use cases and requirements as clear as possible and direct them in the right direction. 15:33:33 q+ 15:34:08 ack at 15:34:35 Andreas: In my view this issue has a high priority, to avoid another captioning format, especially because of our 15:34:37 .. experience. 15:34:38 +1 15:34:55 s/direct them/push them gently/ 15:34:59 Andreas: A lot of people in industry lost a lot of time because of this even if they are not interested in captioning. 15:35:10 .. In the long run a lot of people will have more work, which is not what we want. 15:35:23 .. I agree it is important to be delicate, but I think the priority to avoid it is high. 15:35:29 Nigel: I agree with that. 15:35:34 Philippe: I totally agree as well. 15:35:49 .. Feel free to ask for a report from me about the Chinese IG and danmaku in the next couple of months. 15:36:13 .. By the way Atsushi from Japan is a new team contact joining soon so I may ask him to make sure that the WG 15:36:18 .. understands the use cases and requirements. 15:36:39 Nigel: I will ask Atsushi to introduce himself. 15:36:50 Philippe: Or wait until he can join a call. He could not join today. 15:37:49 Nigel: I have no regrets showing for July 4 and we don't normally cancel the call but if there are so many regrets 15:37:55 .. that is is not viable then I will cancel it. 15:38:01 Gary: I could join next week but prefer not to. 15:38:11 Andreas: Regrets from me for next week - I will add them to the agenda issue. 15:38:36 Nigel: Thanks for raising that Philippe. 15:38:39 Topic: Meeting close 15:39:19 Nigel: We've completed our agenda, so let's adjourn. Thank you! [adjourns meeting] 15:39:22 rrsagent, make minutes 15:39:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/27-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:45:52 atai has left #tt 15:46:22 Chair: Nigel 15:48:28 s/+1// 15:48:31 rrsagent, make minutes 15:48:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/27-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:51:03 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:51:08 rrsagent, make minutes v2 15:51:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/27-tt-minutes.html nigel