19:43:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwg
19:43:53 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/06/25-dxwg-irc
19:44:02 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, make logs public
19:44:07 <PWinstanley> chair: PWinstanley
19:44:29 <PWinstanley> regrets+ Roba, DaveBrowning, Antoine
19:44:39 <PWinstanley> meeting: DXWG Plenary
19:44:54 <PWinstanley> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2019.06.25
19:45:06 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
19:45:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/25-dxwg-minutes.html PWinstanley
19:55:40 <kcoyle> kcoyle has joined #dxwg
19:56:05 <PWinstanley> present+
19:59:28 <kcoyle> present+
20:01:34 <alejandra> alejandra has joined #dxwg
20:04:25 <alejandra> present+
20:04:58 <dsr> present+
20:07:21 <PWinstanley> scribenick: PWinstanley
20:07:27 <PWinstanley> topic: Admin
20:08:22 <PWinstanley> proposed: accept minutes of last week - https://www.w3.org/2019/06/18-dxwg-minutes
20:08:29 <PWinstanley> +1
20:08:34 <kcoyle> +1
20:08:46 <alejandra> +1
20:09:03 <PWinstanley> TomB: +1
20:09:15 <PWinstanley> resolved: accept minutes of last week - https://www.w3.org/2019/06/18-dxwg-minutes
20:09:33 <PWinstanley> Topic: DCAT
20:10:03 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: wide review for 3+ weeks; some input coming in
20:10:24 <kcoyle> scribenick: kcoyle
20:10:56 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: sent around a reminder today; danbri is passing around post in Google
20:11:09 <kcoyle> ... also trying to get some responses from European Commission
20:11:35 <riccardoAlbertoni> riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwg
20:11:40 <kcoyle> ... need to study their upgrade path
20:12:01 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
20:12:12 <alejandra> assessment meeting - sounds good
20:12:12 <kcoyle> ... was talking to Philippe and he suggested an assessment meeting before going to candiate recommendation
20:12:27 <kcoyle> ... also, evidence for implementation only needed for end of CR
20:12:33 <kcoyle> ... which take 4 weeks minimum
20:12:38 <PWinstanley> s/candiate/candidate/
20:12:51 <kcoyle> ... suggests meeting 3 July 20 UtC
20:13:53 <kcoyle> ... topic will be checking that all is organized and relation to feedback
20:14:12 <kcoyle> ... suggestions from i18n seem easy to do
20:14:32 <kcoyle> alejandra: seem to be things that we can address
20:14:40 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: please prepare for the 3rd
20:15:04 <kcoyle> Topic: Profiles
20:15:25 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: meaning of profiles in the different documents
20:15:29 <kcoyle> q+
20:15:37 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:16:18 <PWinstanley> kcoyle: To remind people that we got a response on the link between Conneg and IETF, and it seems that they can be different, but not contradict
20:16:45 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: links from public email on profiles are in agenda
20:17:06 <kcoyle> ... reactions to this?
20:18:32 <kcoyle> ... kcoyle's comment on it being a mouthful. It is a good idea to give people more specifics
20:18:35 <PWinstanley> ack TomB
20:19:10 <kcoyle> tomB: never liked this definition; parts I don't like is : to accomplish a particular function
20:19:26 <kcoyle> ... but also do not like a named set of constraints
20:19:31 <kcoyle> q+
20:19:42 <kcoyle> ... a book could be a named set of pages
20:20:03 <kcoyle> ... guidance document enumerates many types of profiles
20:20:12 <kcoyle> ... not just constraints, sometimes extensions
20:20:27 <kcoyle> ... understand that Rob argues that an extension is a constraint
20:20:44 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: Antoine talks about data profiles
20:20:52 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwg
20:21:11 <AndreaPerego> present+
20:21:16 <kcoyle> tomB: what I don't want to do is to limit profiles to the DCMI sense
20:21:21 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:21:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/25-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:21:29 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:21:58 <PWinstanley> kcoyle: I am now beginning to see profiles as specifications, if they explain how something is done
20:22:02 <PWinstanley> +1 to kcoyle
20:22:20 <PWinstanley> kcoyle: so maybe it is a specification with certain qualities
20:22:53 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: yes, agree, you can have a schema that describes what the book is
20:22:57 <kcoyle> ... there can be a set of rules
20:23:55 <kcoyle> tomB: rfc 6906 has a definition "a profile ... does not alter..." (will need to complete)
20:24:01 <PWinstanley> TomB: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6906
20:24:33 <PWinstanley> This specification defines the 'profile' link relation type that    allows resource representations to indicate that they are following    one or more profiles.  A profile is defined not to alter the    semantics of the resource representation itself, but to allow clients    to learn about additional semantics (constraints, conventions,    extensions) that are associated with the resource representation, in    addition to those defined by the media [CUT]
20:24:38 <kcoyle> tomB: extensions are not understood as constraints
20:25:00 <kcoyle> ... if anything is a constraint then nothing is a constraint
20:25:26 <kcoyle> ... rfc definition is not bad; main intention is to provide additional info
20:26:02 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: please respond to the emails from Antoine and kcoyle
20:26:38 <kcoyle> tomb: saying "a set of constraints" is more limited than what profiles are
20:27:11 <kcoyle> AndreaPerego: trying to make up my mind; not ready to be constructive
20:27:21 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: anything you are uneasy about?
20:27:42 <kcoyle> AndreaPerego: for me the issue was the inconsistent way we were using profile when talking about conneg and profile guidance
20:28:11 <kcoyle> ... if we are able to say that there is one definition for conneg and another for prof guidance
20:28:24 <kcoyle> ... if so we would need to add a qualifier to make the distinction clear
20:28:33 <kcoyle> riccardoAlbertoni: Nothing I am uneasy about
20:28:50 <kcoyle> ... my impression is that there are different types of profiles so
20:29:01 <kcoyle> ... good to use a qualifier when talking about profile
20:29:11 <kcoyle> ... but do not favor a particular definition
20:29:53 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: each dealing with particular subsets of a broader concept of profle
20:30:12 <kcoyle> ... would be helpful to move from the total universality of constraints to
20:30:33 <kcoyle> ... show a family of profile types
20:31:03 <kcoyle> ... then there would be things that pass tests, like data profiles
20:31:24 <kcoyle> ... then there are profiles of patterns, like DCAT; and other things that are more loosely structured
20:31:39 <kcoyle> tomb: arguing against overly broad use of constraints
20:32:05 <kcoyle> ... "constraints, conventions, extensions" is a start of a list of things that characterize a profile
20:32:17 <kcoyle> ... does not alter semantics is also a good "rule"
20:32:35 <kcoyle> ... constraints are just one possible function
20:32:56 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: the other thing about extensions is that they bring in something that was defined elsewhere
20:33:11 <kcoyle> q+
20:33:27 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: in a guidance document we would want to say something about those cases
20:33:37 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:34:25 <AndreaPerego> q+
20:34:44 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
20:34:45 <PWinstanley> kcoyle: one think I noticed in Antoine's note that concerned me was that DCAT says something like that DCAT-AP must conform to DCAT
20:35:09 <PWinstanley> ... there is something in the conformance area of the DCAT doc that raises concerns
20:35:31 <riccardoAlbertoni> q-
20:35:36 <alejandra> https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#profiles
20:36:15 <PWinstanley> alejandra: I think what we say is that in the conformance section we are not discussing DCAT-AP,
20:36:25 <alejandra> " Each of these new specifications constitutes a DCAT profile, i.e. a named set of constraints based on DCAT (see § 4. Conformance)"
20:36:43 <kcoyle> 2. "conformance of data catalogue descriptions wrt. DCAT profiles" (DCAT-AP-whatever).
20:36:50 <PWinstanley> ack AndreaPerego
20:37:25 <kcoyle> AndreaPerego: about conformance - depends on context; is different if open or closed world assumption
20:37:39 <kcoyle> ... dcat-ap is conformant because dcat does not say you cannot add
20:38:02 <kcoyle> ... if you can read dcat you can also read dcat-ap ignoring the extensions
20:38:18 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to andrea ... extensions does not imply "non conformance .."
20:38:25 <kcoyle> q+
20:38:32 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:38:51 <riccardoAlbertoni> s/extensions/extension
20:38:52 <PWinstanley> kcoyle: I don't disagree, but think that it needs to be in the DCAT doc when discussing conformance -
20:39:14 <PWinstanley> ... what you said makes sense, but just saying 'conformance' needs more specification
20:40:01 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: there is a bullet point saying that when metadata is conformant with DCAT then you must use the properties and classes of DCAT, but if you want to say something else then you can add more
20:40:15 <PWinstanley> ... but perhaps we need to look at it again
20:40:49 <PWinstanley> kcoyle: the question is how you would test conformance.  The doc doesn't discuss open world assumption etc
20:41:21 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: where are we? we have some work to do on DCAT and other docs that extend from discussion
20:41:38 <kcoyle> ... still need a paragraph or 2 for general public when we discuss profiles
20:41:53 <kcoyle> ... need to think about naive user as the audience
20:42:55 <kcoyle> tomb: +1
20:43:04 <kcoyle> s/tomb/tomB
20:43:22 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:43:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/25-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:43:44 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: (general pep talk about DCAT)
20:44:21 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: let it go for another week or so?
20:44:27 <kcoyle> q+
20:44:27 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
20:45:08 <kcoyle> tomB: good idea; no problem defining conformance in DCAT just in defining for profiles generally
20:45:35 <kcoyle> ... do DCAT and conneg, then guidance; worry about how much group can do
20:45:56 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: this will become clearer after the assessment meeting
20:46:09 <alejandra> +q
20:46:20 <kcoyle> ... we are also looking toward another PWD of conneg
20:46:47 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:47:26 <PWinstanley> kcoyle: I asked on the list where it might be a good idea to discuss, github or the email?
20:47:47 <PWinstanley> tomB: there is a google doc, but that is only good for a specification
20:48:00 <PWinstanley> kcoyle: this is a sentence or 2, so github should work
20:48:04 <PWinstanley> tomB: agreed
20:48:10 <PWinstanley> ack alejandra
20:48:22 <kcoyle> alejandra: github is a good place to do this
20:48:42 <kcoyle> ... reiterate point of meeting on July 3
20:49:28 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: July 3 meeting is about DCAT move to CR, so need a meeting at same time as subgroup
20:49:39 <AndreaPerego> q+
20:49:57 <kcoyle> ... to work out where we are with DCAT
20:50:09 <kcoyle> ... while in CR can make only stylistic changes
20:50:33 <kcoyle> ... also, evidence of implementation is due at END of CR period (about 4 weeks)
20:50:52 <kcoyle> ... in addition to wide review need to ensure we've had a comprehensive plenary review
20:50:59 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
20:51:05 <kcoyle> ... so please join in that meeting
20:51:24 <PWinstanley> ack AndreaPerego
20:51:57 <kcoyle> AndreaPerego: cannot be there on the 3rd - at a workshop about discoverability on the web
20:52:13 <AndreaPerego> Workshop on making spatial data discoverable on the Web: https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/fpfis/wikis/x/Y9kuF
20:53:21 <kcoyle> ... can there be a prep meeting before it?
20:53:35 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to andrea
20:54:04 <PWinstanley> ack riccardoAlbertoni
20:54:39 <kcoyle> riccardoAlbertoni: can join next week but need a prep meeting, esp. because there are github
20:54:47 <kcoyle> ... discussions that haven't concluded
20:55:40 <TomB> TomB has joined #dxwg
20:55:46 <kcoyle> ... can we arrange an agenda for next week or week after to see when we can do it
20:56:03 <kcoyle> ... it would be good to have a DCAT meeting before discussing with Philippe
20:56:06 <alejandra> +1 to preparatory meeting
20:56:39 <kcoyle> PWinstanley: ok, will ask philippe about week 3 of July (e.g. 15th)
20:57:32 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:57:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/25-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:59:03 <riccardoAlbertoni> thank you all, bye
20:59:20 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:59:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/25-dxwg-minutes.html PWinstanley
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