15:00:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
15:00:13 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/06/06-tt-irc
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15:00:17 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:00:17 <trackbot> Date: 06 June 2019
15:01:30 <cyril> agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/41
15:01:38 <cyril> Present: Cyril, Glenn
15:01:45 <cyril> Chair: Nigel
15:01:55 <cyril> Topic: this meeting
15:02:31 <cyril> Present+ Gary
15:02:46 <nigel> Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/06/06-tt-irc
15:02:50 <nigel> Present+ Nigel_Megitt
15:03:12 <cyril> Regrets: Andreas
15:03:12 <nigel> Regrets: Andreas
15:03:46 <gkatsev> gkatsev has joined #tt
15:04:00 <cyril> nigel: we've got WebVTT IR
15:04:07 <cyril> ... gary has made some progress
15:04:14 <cyril> ... we've got TTML2 aggenda items
15:04:21 <cyril> ... TTML2 Profile Registry
15:04:34 <cyril> ... Philippe should join and give charter update
15:04:49 <cyril> glenn: I have a broader set with a different order
15:04:59 <cyril> nigel: that's what was labelled agenda on tuesday
15:05:15 <cyril> glenn: when we get there we can fine tune the order
15:05:36 <cyril> nigel: it's fair for members to cover the ones that were on the agenda first
15:05:38 <cyril> glenn: ok
15:05:58 <cyril> nigel: AOB?
15:06:06 <cyril> Topic: WebVTT Implementation Report
15:06:15 <glenn> glenn has joined #tt
15:06:19 <cyril> nigel: Gary has posted an update
15:06:26 <cyril> ... a beautiful Wiki page
15:06:29 <nigel> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/WebVTT_Implementation_Report WebVTT Implementation Report
15:07:08 <cyril> gkatsev: I have transformed the spreadsheet into the wiki page
15:07:15 <cyril> ... for all the features that are not at risk
15:07:15 <plh_> present+
15:07:29 <cyril> ... I believe there are 10 tests that are not passing
15:07:45 <cyril> ... but I think these tests are failing mostly because impl bugs
15:08:04 <cyril> ... and because of the way WebVTT is with no "feature" per se
15:08:30 <cyril> ... one test not passing does not mean that a feature is not implementable
15:08:54 <cyril> ... because the parts that are being tested is also tested in rendering tests
15:09:18 <cyril> ... so unless we can get implementations to fix their bug, we'll be stuck there
15:09:25 <cyril> glenn: can you remove the tests?
15:09:36 <cyril> ... we've done that in other specs
15:09:58 <cyril> plh_: we could remove it from the report and/or the repository
15:10:09 <cyril> ... if it is not wrong, I would not remove it from the repo
15:10:32 <cyril> glenn: in IMSC1.1, we used a driver to remove tests that we did not want in the report
15:11:02 <cyril> plh_: we just need a list that is relevant for the director
15:11:05 <nigel> s/IMSC1.1/TTML2 and IMSC1
15:11:25 <cyril> plh_: the main goal for the report is to show to the Director
15:11:35 <cyril> ... if we have red and explanations that's fine
15:12:02 <cyril> nigel: you said 10 tests
15:12:10 <cyril> ... that sounds like a large number
15:12:14 <cyril> plh_: no, it's not
15:12:28 <cyril> nigel: I still find it hard to grasp the user impact
15:12:58 <cyril> gkatsev: the failing tests I don't think show that the spec is not implementable
15:13:12 <cyril> nigel: the exit criteria says 2 indep implementations of each feature
15:13:35 <cyril> ... implementability is not part of the exit criteria
15:13:39 <cyril> ... that's a different thing
15:13:55 <cyril> ... I'm trying to understand what might look like a feature and that is not passing
15:14:04 <cyril> plh_: we have multiple tests for each feature
15:14:18 <cyril> nigel: a failing test might show that a part of a feature has a problem
15:14:24 <cyril> ... or it might be an edge case
15:14:38 <cyril> plh_: or it shows that the underlying CSS engine is not yet there
15:15:03 <cyril> ... WebVTT delegates a lot of things to CSS
15:15:22 <cyril> ... if one of those tests fail, does it mean we should not mention that property in WebVTT?
15:15:27 <cyril> ... I don't think so
15:15:38 <cyril> nigel: you've made a logical leap that's too bif
15:15:42 <cyril> s/bif/big/
15:16:01 <cyril> plh_: webvtt relies on CSS semantics
15:16:30 <cyril> nigel: yes, but these are implementation tests not semantics test
15:16:51 <cyril> plh_: can you point to a feature that is pretty bad
15:17:01 <cyril> nigel: I'm worried about positioning
15:17:09 <cyril> ... settings line, settings position
15:17:37 <cyril> ... if you cannot be sure that WebVTT cannot work with positioning of text
15:17:40 <cyril> ... that's a problem
15:18:09 <cyril> gkatsev: all of these positioning things are tested in the rendering test and working properly
15:18:19 <cyril> ... the parsing tests are complex and have lots of edge cases
15:18:31 <cyril> ... Firefox fails because their parsing is very very strict
15:19:20 <cyril> ... and parses as much as it can and as soon as it sees something unusual that should be ignored it ignores everything
15:19:34 <cyril> ... a lot of the implementations are quite old
15:19:47 <cyril> ... I'm actually surprised to see how well they do
15:20:20 <cyril> ... the region lines are failing because the tests use a 2^32 value that is beyond integer and the spec says it's a long
15:20:49 <cyril> plh_: in this case of long, how often do you want to use such a big number
15:20:59 <cyril> ... blocking the spec on this kind of thing would be stupid
15:21:37 <cyril> nigel: can we ask as a macro level, with the implementations that we have test for, can we use regions?
15:21:57 <cyril> gkatsev: you can use regions in Firefox and VLC
15:22:10 <cyril> nigel: and the failing tests, what do they show us?
15:22:21 <cyril> ... region lines is the long one
15:22:28 <cyril> ... if you use normal numbers it passes?
15:22:31 <cyril> gkatsev: yes
15:23:06 <cyril> nigel: in a well formed file that uses id in the int space, Firefox would render correctly
15:23:09 <cyril> gkatsev: yes
15:23:25 <cyril> plh_: at this point, people need to look at the IR and ask questions
15:23:33 <cyril> ... I'd like to start a CfC to move into PR
15:23:43 <cyril> ... if people need more time to review the PR, they should ask
15:24:00 <cyril> pal: it seems that some tests are non-sensical, we could just change the test
15:24:16 <cyril> plh_: I think it makes sense to have edge cases test
15:24:42 <cyril> pal: what's uncool is to ship a product with failing tests?
15:25:08 <cyril> ... I'm just talking basic software practices
15:25:28 <cyril> nigel: we're not talking about the tests being cool, we're talking about the spec
15:25:55 <cyril> pal: what makes me uncomfortable is that if a feature is in the spec, somebody will run into it
15:26:16 <cyril> ... one issue is to remove the test, file an issue with the spec to fix it
15:26:29 <cyril> ... if we say we'll never do it, we should fix the spec
15:26:37 <cyril> plh_: the implementations need to be fixed
15:27:24 <cyril> pal: I've seen similar examples in TTML
15:27:38 <cyril> pal: I don't want block the spec
15:27:46 <cyril> ... I want to resolve it without ignoring it
15:27:56 <cyril> plh_: I'm suggesting not to resolve them in a rush
15:28:06 <cyril> ... maybe the v2 of WebVTT will fix that
15:28:25 <cyril> pal: I'm suggesting to remove the test and file an issue with the spec and move on
15:28:52 <cyril> gkatsev: the main utility of keeping it long is consistency with other specs like HTML
15:29:05 <cyril> ... but I cannot imagine someone using a long
15:29:11 <cyril> plh_: I'd like to start a CfC
15:29:21 <cyril> ... the failures are edge cases at this point
15:29:30 <cyril> pal: file an issue and remove the test
15:29:49 <cyril> plh_: you want to rush things, I don't
15:30:35 <cyril> nigel: if you want to start a consensus gathering, you should start
15:30:56 <cyril> ... you can send an email for CfC or ask here
15:31:15 <cyril> ... with a 10 day
15:31:45 <cyril> plh_: I'll start an email CfC
15:32:07 <cyril> ... and if people are not happy, they will have 10 days to do so
15:32:34 <cyril> pal: I'm totally confused regarding filing issues
15:32:42 <cyril> ... what's the problem
15:32:57 <cyril> plh_: I just don't want to block the spec
15:33:03 <cyril> pal: it can be in the backlog
15:33:22 <cyril> ... I'm kindly asking Gary to file an issue because he understands better
15:33:27 <cyril> gkatsev: I can do that
15:33:57 <cyril> nigel: specifically for this one, it would be nice to have a test that does not exercise the long range and show that it passes
15:34:32 <cyril> nigel: done on WebVTT?
15:34:45 <cyril> Topic: TTML2 and TTML3 Pull Requests
15:36:06 <cyril> glenn: I'd like to go in a different order
15:36:09 <cyril> ... 1107 ?
15:36:37 <cyril> nigel: no because it's unfair to ask people to review issues that were not in the agenda
15:36:47 <cyril> glenn: no because there are dependencies
15:36:55 <cyril> nigel: anybody had a look at it?
15:37:02 <cyril> ... [silence]
15:37:33 <cyril> plh_: I think we need to move on with the agenda
15:37:58 <cyril> ... as sent out by nigel
15:38:16 <cyril> glenn: in that case, I'd like to defer 1108 and 1098 and request a 2h meeting next week
15:38:34 <cyril> s/1098/1089/
15:39:39 <nigel> Topic: Contextualize 'considered an error' (#1067). ttml2#1098
15:39:44 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1098
15:40:05 <cyril> nigel: there are many open parts on this
15:40:49 <cyril> ... there are unresolved conversations
15:42:42 <cyril> nigel: about TR and RR I pushed that in a separate conversation
15:48:08 <plh_> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:48:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/06-tt-minutes.html plh_
15:52:35 <plh_> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:52:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/06-tt-minutes.html plh_
15:55:51 <nigel> scribe: nigel
15:56:03 <nigel> Nigel: We've resolved all the unresolved conversations.
15:56:08 <nigel> .. Any objections to merging?
15:56:14 <nigel> group: no objections
15:56:21 <nigel> Nigel: Ok we can go ahead and merge this.
15:56:24 <nigel> github-bot, end topic
15:59:40 <cyril> Topic: Charter status
15:59:44 <glenn> regrets for Jun 20 meeting
15:59:45 <cyril> nigel: any update ?
15:59:54 <cyril> plh_: still within W3M
16:00:02 <cyril> ... I've got a few comments that I need to address
16:00:08 <cyril> ... nothing substantive
16:00:20 <cyril> ... it should be approved not Wednesday but the next one
16:00:34 <cyril> nigel: I did notice a comment on horiz review
16:01:05 <cyril> ... the one from richard, it seems to be a mistake on our side
16:01:23 <cyril> plh_: I'm pushing the accessibility people to review
16:01:46 <plh_> https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/177
16:01:52 <cyril> ... we changed the charter regarding horiz review 2 weeks ago
16:02:02 <plh_> https://github.com/w3c/strategy/projects/2
16:02:45 <cyril> pal: maybe the reason it was removed is because it was in the liaison section
16:02:55 <cyril> ... could be added easily
16:04:39 <nigel> Topic: Meeting close
16:04:58 <nigel> Nigel: I have a clash for what would be the first hour of a two hour meeting if we do it at the usual time of 1400 UTC
16:05:16 <nigel> .. next week, so I'll send out a separate message to the group about scheduling the call next week.
16:05:27 <nigel> .. Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting]
16:05:30 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/06-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:07:29 <nigel> i/nigel: we've got WebVTT/scribe: cyril
16:07:34 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/06-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:07:53 <nigel> s/github-bot, end topic//g
16:08:36 <nigel> i/nigel: any update ?/scribe: cyril
16:08:38 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:08:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/06-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:08:58 <nigel> i/Topic: Meeting close/scribe: nigel
16:09:03 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:09:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/06-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:09:36 <nigel> Present+ Philippe, Nigel
16:09:46 <nigel> Present- Nigel_Megitt, plh_
16:09:48 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:09:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/06-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:09:53 <nigel> Present+ Pierre
16:09:54 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:09:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/06-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:13:17 <nigel> s/We've resolved all the unresolved conversations./[group iterates through unresolved conversations and moves issues to separate tickets] We've resolved all the unresolved conversations.
16:13:53 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:13:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/06-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:14:24 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:14:26 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:14:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/06-tt-minutes.html nigel
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