14:04:04 RRSAgent has joined #me 14:04:04 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/06/04-me-irc 14:04:11 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:04:28 Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/06/04-me-irc 14:04:30 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:04:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/04-me-minutes.html tidoust 14:04:37 Meeting: M&E IG Monthly Call 14:04:41 Chair: Chris 14:04:45 Present+ Nigel_Megitt 14:04:59 present+ Francois_Daoust 14:05:13 present+ 14:05:16 present+ Scott_Low 14:05:17 scribe: cpn 14:05:23 present+ 14:05:44 scribe: nigel 14:05:55 Chris: Happy to invite Francois Beaufort from Google 14:06:05 .. This session will be recorded for later publication 14:06:12 mounir has joined #me 14:06:17 .. Thank you everyone, welcome to M&E IG call 14:06:27 .. Francois will tell us about the Media Session API. 14:07:04 .. Introduction to the API? What is the purpose of the API? Then we can discuss specific details. 14:07:39 Mounir: I am present too, and can take over the media session API part. 14:07:53 Barbara_Intel has joined #me 14:08:26 cpn: Media Session is to take advantage of the media controls on mobile devices 14:08:27 present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi 14:09:00 ... The metadata allows you to express artist, title names 14:09:13 ... There's an artwork dictionary, with source and size and type 14:09:49 ... Icons in HTML have the same thing, customize image types, use the size to pick the best size, depending on browser 14:10:10 ... The second part of Media Session is around actions, the website can expose actions and add handlers 14:10:19 ... Basic actions are play/pause 14:10:36 ... These affect the active media element, or all at the same time if there is more than one 14:10:56 -> https://wicg.github.io/mediasession/ Media Session Standard 14:10:58 ... We recently added d-pad, and stop 14:11:06 ... Next/Previous 14:11:43 ... Seeking, handled in Safari from the search bar 14:12:02 ... The time of seeking isn't only dependent on the website, return success/fail 14:12:10 ... A website can specify an action handler with a callback 14:12:17 i/cpn: Media Session/scribe: cpn 14:12:21 s/search bar/Touch Bar/ 14:12:39 ... When the handler is specified, the UA should not /?/ 14:13:11 ... Recently added playback rate, to allow the UA to try to guess where we are in the playback 14:13:32 ... Discussion on GH issues right now on seek forward/backward and seek to specific time 14:13:46 MarkVickers has joined #me 14:14:02 ... You can use the mouse to drive the timeline 14:14:37 ... What we're looking at in the future, there's seeking to arbitrary time, discussion around skip as a generic action or skip intro or skip ad 14:14:53 ... Discussion around WebRTC actions 14:15:11 igarashi has joined #me 14:16:59 cpn: Have you given any thought to how this might work on a big screen type implementation? e.g. TV? 14:17:01 q+ 14:17:27 gregwf has joined #me 14:18:01 Mounir: Haven't done specific work around that. If you have an android phone connected to the android TV, could show the controls 14:18:21 ... Most of the cases for TV have been around cast, this not using MediaSession (Chrome specifically) 14:18:39 Scott: There's integratino with system transport controls on Windoows 14:19:46 Jer: This is something we're interested in, as Apple has a big screen interface. This could be useful as a media remote control API 14:20:26 Mounir: I agree, it's interesting. We looked at it when implementing Remote Playback API on Chrome for Android 14:20:54 ... Could add more actions, same with Presentation API, we have all the actions needed 14:21:27 Chris: How is media session mediated between multiple tabs? 14:21:51 Mounir: Each page has a media session, separate from Audio Focus API. Have some ideas around Audio Focus to help make it clearer 14:22:06 ... Today it's mostly browser specific, mostly on mobile, not on desktop 14:22:47 ... MediaSession doesn't care about that 14:23:16 Mounir: Scott mentioned Windows support, it's supported by platform specific APIs 14:23:35 q+ to wonder about relationship between some media session actions and media remote controls defined (KeyboardEvent) 14:23:46 ack jernoble 14:24:31 Francois: What's the relationship between some of the Media Session actions, such as play, pause, seek, and those being defined in KeyboardEvents? 14:25:00 Mounir: We don't use that for Media Session, we use platform-specific APIs 14:25:02 q+ 14:25:07 ack tidoust 14:25:07 tidoust, you wanted to wonder about relationship between some media session actions and media remote controls defined (KeyboardEvent) 14:25:20 Timeline - Working Draft and Candidate Recommendation? 14:25:24 ... We listen at the system level 14:26:04 Jer: At the beginning of the media session API discussion, we considered use of keyboard events, and came up against the problem of how to indicate to the UA which events are supported 14:26:21 ... How does the UA know what UI to elevate based on what the UA can do 14:26:40 ... Use case not just remote controls for TVs 14:26:55 ... ack jer 14:26:59 ack jernoble 14:28:08 Mounir: main blocker today is having a second implementation. AFAIK there's no other implementation 14:28:39 ... Picture in Picture adds some use cases, but it's stable, so we have a v1 we're happy with, can send to the rec track, consider new features for v2 14:29:06 q+ to ask if accessibility related media actions are considered in scope 14:29:44 cpn: Coming to the first scenario, which is presentation of metadata around the media session. Any guideline with regards to the length of strings that should be supported through the native rendering of the system? 14:29:50 q+ 14:29:54 ... How would I know what those constraints are? 14:30:28 Mounir: We don't have that information, strings could be shown on a TV, in a car, on a watch 14:30:50 ... Expect it to be shown on a small screen, could be handled by an ellipses, or scrolling 14:31:02 ... It'd be hard for us to figure out how to expose the length 14:31:12 ack nigel 14:31:12 nigel, you wanted to ask if accessibility related media actions are considered in scope 14:31:47 fbeaufort_ has joined #me 14:32:11 MediaAction 14:32:37 XU has joined #me 14:32:51 My question is if MediaAction has in scope not just play/pause/seek etc but also accessibility actions like subtitles/captions On/off? 14:33:03 Jer: Exposing the length for strings isn't something we want to expose, it will be up to the UA to determine how to display 14:33:46 ... For a11y, the Media Session API makes the same a11y features available to web pages, so Media Session is an a11y feature for platforms already supporting accessible media playback 14:33:49 Thanks Jer, that didn't really answer my question! 14:34:36 Mounir: We haven't really thought of toggling captions, haven't had feature requests about that. could implement it 14:35:08 q+ 14:35:15 ... We have a11y features, if user wants captions by default, may want to show captions at different times 14:35:36 ... Showing from lock screen, on watch, sometimes may not make sense 14:35:53 ... But there may be user or developer feedback, so see no reason why not 14:36:02 ack jernoble 14:36:34 JerNoble: The web has a problem with captions right now, as sites roll their own behaviour rather than use provided behaviour 14:36:59 ... Having an action to turn on captions would be a big benefit. I don't know that Apple has any specific UI that would benefit from this 14:37:03 +1 to there being a big benefit 14:37:23 ... If there are implementers in the TV space having a caption on/off, have benefit 14:37:43 There are system requirements in some countries to have for example a "subtitles" button on remote controls, I see this as analogous. 14:37:51 ... We'd love to hear feedback on anything that's missing, so please file a bug if this is a missing feature 14:38:02 Should do for Audio Description too. 14:38:43 igarashi has joined #me 14:38:43 Jer: What adoption are you seeing in Chrome? 14:39:33 Mounir: Fairly big, YouTube, Spotify using it. There's good adoption. Big one missing is Netflix 14:40:20 Topic: Picture in Picture API 14:40:40 FrancoisB: PiP allows websites to present video in a floating window on top of others 14:41:05 ... Safari implemented this, and implemented last year in Chrome for desktop 14:41:20 ... It moves the video layer to an window on top 14:41:34 ... Also for streams from a camera 14:41:57 ... If you set previous/next track in MediaSession, it would add controls to the PiP window 14:42:01 ... Spotify using this 14:42:20 -> https://wicg.github.io/picture-in-picture/ Picture-in-Picture Draft Community Group Report 14:42:32 ... We're not iterating on this version of PiP, as we want any HTML element to be in PiP, PiP for arbitrary content 14:43:05 ... We're focused on v2 not. v1 was used by Spotify, not by YouTube 14:43:30 ... Other big players are experimenting with PiP v1. Integration with Media Session brings compelling use cases 14:43:56 ... Are we allowing arbitrary content in scope for Media WG? 14:44:25 Mounir: Depending on consensus, we can have a v1 go to rec. 14:45:07 ... PiP v1 is mostly trying to be feature compatible with the Safari API 14:45:33 ... It offers a simple API for websites, but some websites had concerns 14:46:12 ... Many websites wanted to show timed overlays with the content. You can overlay with a canvas, but doesn't work with EME 14:46:21 ... Stopped one partner working with it 14:46:51 ... It's a balance between what web developers want and what's best for users 14:47:06 ... We have a good implementation of PiP API for the video element 14:48:26 Chris: Look and feel? 14:48:59 Mounir: That's the no. 1 feedback we had. Could offer ways to customise slightly, different colour 14:49:32 q+ 14:49:36 ... Instead of going down the rabbit hole of providing lots of options, we'd ... 14:50:26 ... Another is subtitle control, can draw subtitles on top of the video, can use WebGL, but it's a lot of work 14:50:36 ack jernoble 14:51:08 Jer: I think subtitles is an orthogonal problem. Rendering as DOM elements brings a11y problems 14:51:36 ... Should address the issues that keep websites from using the native support 14:52:00 Where should subtitles be shown, regardless of native/non-native, when video is in a PIP window? 14:52:06 ... A new subtitle API has been added to the Media Working group, for sites using non WebVTT, for styling rules as needed 14:52:26 +1 to Media WG taking on subtitles rework. 14:52:30 ... For me, the subtitle issue shuold get fixed on the web platform level, so can be presented in PiP windows 14:53:13 Nigel: Interesting point. If you have a small video presentation window, where shuold the subtitles go? There could be a problem 14:53:23 ... Where on the screen should they go, when in PiP? 14:53:44 Quick question: Jer, will Safari implement PiP V2 (arbitrary content)? 14:54:00 Jer: One of the problems with teh v2 approach is that every site would have to come up with their own solution 14:54:14 ... Netflix want to very specifically want to control subtitle experience 14:54:48 ... Make decisions on a platform basis, different fonts, colours, backgrounds without having every website make those decisions 14:55:23 ... I push back on subtitles being a driving feature for PiP v2, it constrains the UA's ability to make good decisions for subtitle rendering 14:55:39 ... Hadn't considered the case of having a second PiP window for subtitles 14:56:02 Mounir: Subtitles isn't a driving use case for v2, but it's something we've heard 14:56:40 q+ 14:57:04 Jer: We see that the feature is popular, want more to use it. We wuoldn't be able to give a full HTML interactive PiP window given the constraints 14:57:15 ... OS constraints generally 14:57:46 Nigel: Native vs not native, would be awkard also for BBC in the same way 14:57:51 Separate topic: Media Capture Stream and Depth API. How will you work with that media API? Will it become part of the media working group? 14:57:58 ... Would want to factor that decision out and take it elsewhere 14:58:15 ... If subtitles only work on PiP with native playback, this would be wrong for me 14:58:32 Jer: Why would subtitles only work in native playback? 14:59:16 Nigel: Responding to the suggestion that fixing subtitle and captions by going native is the best way 14:59:38 Jer: What feature is missing? 15:00:01 Nigel: That's a broader topic, let's take it outside of PiP 15:00:30 Jer: Will be interesting from a Media WG issue, why the current state of subtitles on the spec isn't sufficient 15:00:54 Nigel: I agree with the summary that there's a problem with subtitles and captions, not sure everybody agrees on the solution 15:01:48 Barbara: Media capture is also evolving, Iooking at the Media WG direction, will you be looking at this? 15:02:16 Mounir: I don't think that's in scope for the Media WG. But Media Capture and PiP work well together 15:02:33 Barbara: So each one is on it's own track to standardisation? 15:02:36 Mounir: Yes 15:03:03 Jer: Media Session and Picture and Picture all integrate with the media element that's defined elsewhere, in HTML 15:03:15 ... Media Capture is also elsewhere, in another WG 15:03:15 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:03:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/04-me-minutes.html tidoust 15:04:09 Barbara: I'd suggest producing an architectural view to show how things fit together, who's doing what 15:05:13 Chris: PiP on mobile or TV devices 15:05:51 FrancoisB: Haven't shipped on Chrome Android, have talked to LG folks around implementation 15:06:03 present+ Barbara_Hochgesang, Francois_Beaufort, Mounir_Lamouri, Gref_Freedman, John_Luther, Larry_Zhao, Mark_Vickers, Xu_Song, mg_chen, wushan 15:06:26 Mounir: Could go full page or via home button. We're starting to work on this feature for Android 15:07:28 Topic: Media Working Group 15:07:39 Chris: Initial plans and focus? 15:07:51 -> https://www.w3.org/media-wg/ Media WG home page 15:07:55 Mounir: Media Session and PiP - getting MS to rec, PiP v2 15:08:07 ... Media Capabilities, get new use cases almost every day 15:08:23 [Please note (and use!) the "Join this group" link on the Media WG home page!] 15:08:54 ... Work around AutoPlay, Media Playback Quality, MSE and EME adding new features based on browser and developer feedback 15:09:19 ... As Jer mentioned, things around text tracks and datacue 15:09:38 Jer: Priorities? 15:09:55 Mounir: Those things, hard to put in order 15:10:27 -> https://www.w3.org/2019/05/media-wg-charter.html#deliverables Media WG deliverables (normative and potentially normative) 15:10:31 ... One priority we have is getting things from WICG into the Rec track. Media Capabilities isn't quite ready, then taking care of MSE and EME 15:11:25 Jer: EME has particular important, as it has been neglected for a long while for process reasons, has lots of little issues 15:11:52 ... MSE has new features interesting from a web page point of view, some pain points, new features proposed to address them 15:12:09 ... Next is to bring all the WICG work to rec track, specifically PiP and Media Session 15:13:12 I assume it was you ;) 15:13:29 Chris: working mode for the WG? 15:13:52 Jer: I haven't joined the WG yet, process issues at Apple. First F2F meeting at TPAC 15:14:06 ... I think we should have yearly or semi-yearly F2F 15:14:18 ... GH issues has been working so far, no pressing need to move away from that 15:14:26 ... Mounir and I haven't discussed WG process yet 15:14:40 Mounir: I agree with one or two F2F per year 15:14:47 ... GH fine where issues aren't controversial 15:15:12 ... Harder to resolve when there is controversy, regular F2F meetings help 15:16:57 q+ 15:17:06 Jer: Faster communications can help. Regular phone calls helped the Audio WG. 15:17:17 ack nigel 15:17:37 ack MarkVickers 15:17:43 Chris: Should talk about how the IG and WG can work together 15:18:27 Mark: Agree. Anytime the WG would want to outsouce some requirements work to the IG, happy to do that. We have contact with a large number of media companies and experts 15:19:29 Chris: Also our liaisons, eg, with ATSC and HbbTV etc 15:19:38 q? 15:21:47 igarashi has joined #me 15:22:06 Topic: next call 15:22:20 cpn: Next call will be on July 2nd 15:22:26 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 15:22:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/04-me-minutes.html tidoust 15:25:13 present+ Chris_Needham 15:25:21 rrsagent, draft minutes v2 15:25:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/04-me-minutes.html cpn 15:54:42 s/I agree with the summary that there's a problem with subtitles and captions, not sure everybody agrees on the solution/I agree with the summary that there's a problem with subtitles and captions, not sure everybody agrees on the solution, happy to keep working on it 15:55:03 rrsagent, draft minutes v2 15:55:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/06/04-me-minutes.html nigel 16:12:48 kaz has joined #me 17:35:47 Zakim has left #me 18:53:56 Karen has joined #me 20:29:37 Karen has joined #me 21:57:31 Karen has joined #me