23:14:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbg
23:14:08 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/05/28-pbg-irc
23:14:33 <dauwhe> meeting: Publishing Business Group Telecon
23:14:49 <dauwhe> date: 28 May 2019
23:33:57 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbg
23:38:17 <Daihei> Daihei here: Can anybody help me on setting RRSAgent for scribing the minutes
23:40:40 <Karen> Karen has joined #pbg
23:42:24 <Daihei> Karen, Daihei here. I invited Zakim and RRSAgent, but do not know how to tell rrsagent about the meeting and find a scribe. Could you tell me how to do it?
23:49:18 <dauwhe> I've already done all of that
23:49:32 <Daihei> Dave, really?
23:49:51 <dauwhe> Zakim can't help you find a scribe until the meeting has started and there are no volunteers :)
23:50:13 <Daihei> Great! Last time there was no scribe of the meeting and I had a terrible time
23:50:48 <Daihei> Should I still ask at the beginning who can volunteer to scribe verbally?
23:53:00 <dauwhe> yes, much better to get a volunteer than for Zakim to randomly choose someone who might not be able to scribe
23:54:30 <Daihei> Okay
23:56:45 <Daihei> I do not see anybody on GoToMeeting.
23:59:23 <dauwhe> present+
23:59:26 <dauwhe> zakim, who is here?
23:59:26 <Zakim> Present: dauwhe
23:59:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see Karen, Daihei, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rachel, wendyreid, dauwhe, bigbluehat, dmitry
23:59:43 <ShinyaTakami> ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg
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23:59:59 <ShinyaTakami> present+
00:00:05 <jkamata> present+
00:00:15 <dauwhe> zakim, who is here?
00:00:15 <Zakim> Present: dauwhe, ShinyaTakami, jkamata
00:00:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see jkamata, ShinyaTakami, Karen, Daihei, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rachel, wendyreid, dauwhe, bigbluehat, dmitry
00:00:48 <wendyreid> present+
00:02:36 <dauwhe> Chair: Daihei
00:04:00 <Daihei> Publishing Business Group Telecon
00:04:11 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
00:04:17 <Daihei> Date May 28/29
00:04:48 <dauwhe> Daihei: let's get started
00:04:55 <dauwhe> Topic: audio books
00:05:20 <jyoshii> jyoshii has joined #pbg
00:05:46 <dauwhe> ... the web publication framework can be a framework for profiles
00:05:51 <dauwhe> ... and audio books is an example
00:06:09 <dauwhe> ... we should know the status of the audiobook standard in US and Europe
00:06:15 <wendyreid> q+
00:06:17 <dauwhe> ... can someone give us an update?
00:06:22 <dauwhe> ack wen
00:06:43 <dauwhe> wendyreid: the spec should be published as fpwd very soon
00:06:53 <dauwhe> ... we are reaching out to publishers in north america and europe
00:07:09 <dauwhe> ... we've had limited success with american publishers and apa (audio publisher's association)
00:07:21 <dauwhe> ... but apa has been reluctant to work with us
00:07:30 <dauwhe> ... for reasons we don't fully understand
00:07:47 <dauwhe> ... on the euro side Luc has spoken to audiolivre
00:08:04 <dauwhe> ... I've spoken to publishers etc in the nordic countries and in the netherlands
00:08:13 <dauwhe> ... and I'm now in contact with a UK publisher
00:08:19 <dauwhe> ... I've spoke to Canadian publishers
00:08:27 <dauwhe> ... we're getting there
00:08:44 <dauwhe> ... if you know of any Asian publishers interested in audio, please let me know
00:08:45 <Daihei> q+
00:08:50 <dauwhe> ack dai
00:08:59 <dauwhe> Daihei: I was speaking to Luc re: europe
00:09:17 <dauwhe> ... he wants to know more realistically how audiobook standard is being considered by audio publishers in europe
00:09:31 <dauwhe> ... so he will send out notes, to ask what they think of standardization
00:09:41 <dauwhe> ... and to find out what kind of tools they are using
00:09:54 <dauwhe> ... which could lead to knowledge about what file formats they're using
00:10:04 <dauwhe> ... and then we could discuss this info in pbg
00:10:21 <dauwhe> ... and describe how a standard could help the industry be more efficient
00:10:42 <Daihei> q+
00:10:43 <dauwhe> ... so he will get that info from Europe
00:10:45 <dauwhe> ack Daihei
00:10:50 <jyoshii> present+
00:10:53 <dauwhe> ... re: asia
00:11:05 <dauwhe> ... in Japan, audio book is very limited market so far
00:11:24 <dauwhe> ... smartphone and pcs--they are cabable of using audiobook formats like mp3 or flac
00:11:34 <dauwhe> ... since they're used for music :)
00:11:42 <dauwhe> ... but business of audiobook is so limited
00:11:56 <dauwhe> ... so they are not eager to take a risk to develop the market
00:12:08 <dauwhe> ... but there are a few specialized publishers in Japan who will try to expand the market
00:12:34 <dauwhe> ... and those publishers could follow the standardization at w3c
00:12:44 <dauwhe> ... Amazon is aggressively marketing audible in Japan
00:12:53 <dauwhe> ... so the market might grow
00:13:09 <dauwhe> ... in Taiwan, ttdp representative janni mentioned it wasn't a big market
00:13:15 <wendyreid> q+
00:13:18 <dauwhe> ... I don't know about china
00:13:23 <dauwhe> ack wendyreid
00:13:32 <dauwhe> wendyreid: it sounds like there is a market, even if it's small
00:13:36 <dauwhe> ... this might be a good time
00:13:56 <dauwhe> ... if amazan is aggressive, then this is a good time for standardization to help people keep up
00:14:11 <dauwhe> ... in europe they're eager because it's not a mature market
00:14:27 <dauwhe> ... we can show that a standard makes their life easier
00:14:45 <dauwhe> ... is there some industry organization? or do we reach out individually?
00:14:49 <ShinyaTakami> q+
00:14:53 <dauwhe> Daihei: any comment from anyone else?
00:14:55 <dauwhe> ack shin
00:15:18 <dauwhe> ShinyaTakami: it's a small market, but we have interest in generating audiobooks
00:15:30 <dauwhe> ... we have some audiobooks with character voices
00:15:40 <dauwhe> ... if market gets bigger, we support standardization
00:15:51 <dauwhe> ... and some ebook stores have interest in distributing these
00:16:07 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I'm a big manga reader, and I hear about live character versions
00:16:16 <dauwhe> ... I'm glad there's a market
00:16:22 <dauwhe> Daihei: anyone else?
00:16:24 <Daihei> q+
00:16:28 <dauwhe> ack daih
00:16:44 <dauwhe> Daihei: the smart speaker devices like amazon or google
00:16:48 <dauwhe> ... that's been expanding
00:16:53 <dauwhe> ... and in cars
00:17:09 <dauwhe> ... beyond radio, ipads, etc
00:17:28 <dauwhe> ... there could be new places for products to be available
00:17:37 <dauwhe> ... podcasting is growing in Japan, too
00:17:56 <dauwhe> ... there are opportunities because of these new things
00:18:11 <dauwhe> ... we should bring this info to the pbg meeting next week
00:18:29 <dauwhe> ... and further discuss standardization
00:18:33 <dauwhe> ... any other comments?
00:18:36 <dauwhe> q?
00:18:56 <dauwhe> ... Luc wanted to ask what kind of tools the audiobook publishers are using most
00:19:04 <dauwhe> wendyreid: the name that comes up is pro tools
00:19:21 <dauwhe> ... daisy has obi
00:19:26 <dauwhe> ... and there are small free options
00:19:36 <dauwhe> ... and there are web-based podcast tools
00:19:43 <dauwhe> ... but pro tools is the biggest
00:19:47 <dauwhe> q?
00:20:54 <dauwhe> Daihei: we need to talk about wp, epub 3.2, epubcheck, the audio profile...
00:21:04 <dauwhe> ... are there any other profiles we want to focus on?
00:21:51 <dauwhe> ... anyone from japan have comments?
00:21:53 <Daihei> q+
00:21:56 <dauwhe> ack daih
00:22:19 <dauwhe> Daihei: my understanding is that, in the US, that kid's books and cookbooks, with graphic oriented content
00:22:28 <dauwhe> ... is something that people are looking for
00:22:36 <dauwhe> ... there's lots of talk about comic/manga
00:22:56 <dauwhe> ... but most japanese manga publishers are not keen to change formats away from epub 3
00:23:13 <dauwhe> ... because the market is good
00:23:27 <dauwhe> ... changing formats will increase costs
00:23:33 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #pbg
00:23:37 <dauwhe> ... and the market would be confused
00:24:07 <dauwhe> ... although comics/manga might be the next profile of wp, but I think more general graphic content should be the next profile
00:24:15 <dauwhe> q+
00:24:18 <Makoto> SOrry to be late
00:25:06 <wendyreid> dauwhe: I don't necessarily think we need a graphics oriented profile. The point of WP was to have full access with the web
00:25:25 <wendyreid> ... the web is overflowing with recipes and things, lots of rich graphic design, CSS is evolving with flexbox and grid
00:25:37 <dauwhe> ack dauwhe
00:25:37 <ShinyaTakami> q+
00:25:41 <wendyreid> ... I am not sure how this would be different from any other web publication
00:25:42 <dauwhe> ack shin
00:25:42 <Makoto> Takashi Asano, CTO of Media Do Intl, wrote that he would welcome standardization of vertically scrollable manga
00:25:50 <wendyreid> q+
00:26:01 <dauwhe> ShinyaTakami: manga content in japan is image-based fixed layout
00:26:07 <dauwhe> ... but we have no way to search text
00:26:20 <dauwhe> ... which is a problem
00:26:36 <dauwhe> Daihei: so you're saying web publication of manga which might be able to provide search capability
00:26:40 <dauwhe> ShinyaTakami: yes
00:26:54 <dauwhe> ... we need new functionality
00:27:07 <dauwhe> ... to search japanese magazines or manga
00:27:10 <Makoto> +q
00:27:16 <dauwhe> Daihei: any other comments on profiles
00:27:23 <dauwhe> ack wen
00:27:29 <dauwhe> wendyreid: two things
00:27:47 <dauwhe> ... Makoto comments about vertically-scrollable manga
00:27:55 <dauwhe> ... as someone who is familiar with FXL
00:28:10 <dauwhe> ... I think that's a use case for reading systems. Kobo already does this.
00:28:31 <dauwhe> ... the spec could maybe have metadata to request that, but it should be a user setting
00:28:53 <dauwhe> ... the other thing... I think search could be solvable by creating epubs in a different way
00:29:04 <dauwhe> ... you can include text in books, that then making it searchable
00:29:14 <dauwhe> ... reading systems need to make this better
00:29:28 <dauwhe> ... I don't think wp would address where epub couldn't
00:29:54 <dauwhe> ... I don't think wp could do better than the bon appetit website :)
00:29:57 <Makoto> Does my mic work?
00:29:58 <dauwhe> ack mak
00:30:06 <Makoto> Sorry!
00:30:28 <Makoto> Sorry, I'm afraid t hat my mic is not working.
00:30:49 <Makoto> First, very tall JPEG images (such as those used in webtoon) are intracgtable.
00:31:24 <dauwhe> s/intracgtable/intractable/
00:31:30 <Makoto> Second, to help the communication between editors and authors, it would  be nice if we have a format that allows combination  of image and text.
00:31:42 <Makoto> People would like to slightly revise text.
00:31:52 <Makoto> Rasterized text is again difficulrt to handle.
00:32:03 <Makoto> This is what Ogata-san said in Tokyo WS.
00:32:29 <wendyreid> q+
00:32:44 <dauwhe> Daihei: any comments on vertical scrolling?
00:32:55 <dauwhe> ... web publication of manga with text search?
00:33:15 <dauwhe> ... we can bring this over to the pbg meeting next week
00:33:35 <dauwhe> wendyreid: rasterized text is indeed difficult to handle
00:33:52 <dauwhe> ... FXL is maybe not as lovingly embraced by reading systems as it should be :)
00:34:04 <dauwhe> ... i've seen text on a separate layer, and could be edited
00:34:09 <dauwhe> ... that's a style choice
00:34:22 <dauwhe> ... the publishers used image background and position: fixed for text
00:34:25 <Makoto> No standardized formats for the combination of text and image are available.
00:34:26 <dauwhe> ... and that's a solution
00:34:34 <dauwhe> ... some reading systems don't support it
00:34:41 <dauwhe> ... it's possible on the web
00:34:48 <Makoto> True.
00:34:51 <dauwhe> ... it's possible in epub3 today
00:35:03 <dauwhe> ... wp would be using the same html and css as epub :)
00:35:06 <dauwhe> q?
00:35:09 <dauwhe> ack wendyreid
00:35:09 <Makoto> What we have to establish is an industrial convention.
00:35:21 <dauwhe> ... I don't think a standard would make it any better
00:35:30 <Makoto> ]EPUB3 can do everything.  But people can do nothing without a convention
00:35:59 <dauwhe> wendyreid: this may be a question for css?
00:36:01 <dauwhe> q+
00:36:19 <Makoto> Or, some group in Publishing@W3C might want to publish a convention.
00:36:38 <wendyreid> dauwhe: I'm not entirely clear what the problem is, I can position text wherever it is needed with CSS
00:37:00 <wendyreid> ... a lot of the text in manga is handwriting or art. We have made fonts of author's handwriting
00:37:12 <Makoto> The same thing applies to tall JPEG images.  If we have a format (again a convention) for combining smaller images, we do not have to handle intractable images.
00:37:18 <wendyreid> ... there is not a magical solution to this problem, we could use layers or alt text
00:37:45 <wendyreid> ... an old spec that was never used  (b&N?), there's no way to make CSS treat art as text
00:37:47 <dauwhe> ack dauwhe
00:37:50 <dauwhe> Daihei: any comment?
00:37:56 <Makoto> This is probably not a base standard issue.  This is a profile issue.
00:39:00 <dauwhe> Daihei: we can discuss at the next meeting. dauwhe and wendyreid can help.
00:39:01 <Makoto> Next time, I will try to fix my mic.
00:39:38 <dauwhe> Daihei: our focal point should be on business cases
00:40:24 <dauwhe> ... we also talked about educational / academic publications
00:40:30 <dauwhe> ... we can elaborate these later
00:40:50 <dauwhe> Topic: global communication on epub 3.2 and epubcheck 4.2.1
00:40:58 <dauwhe> Daihei: it's already announced
00:41:11 <dauwhe> ... and some testimonials were already given
00:41:26 <dauwhe> ... one proposed apl testimonial
00:41:40 <dauwhe> ... (daihei reads testimonial)
00:42:40 <dauwhe> ... if this is to be posted, then the pbg should approve this
00:42:53 <dauwhe> ... any comments
00:42:56 <dauwhe> +2
00:43:02 <jyoshii> +1
00:43:08 <jkamata> +1
00:43:18 <dauwhe> Daihei: I'll tell w3c that we approve :)
00:43:43 <dauwhe> ... any ideas about pr?
00:43:58 <dauwhe> ... could anyone comment on this?
00:44:13 <Daihei> q＋
00:44:18 <dauwhe> ack dai
00:44:54 <dauwhe> Daihei: I'm approaching industry bodies to come up with some press releases or supportive interviews
00:45:02 <dauwhe> ... to be in japanese industry publications
00:45:10 <dauwhe> ... I hope these will come out shortly
00:45:23 <dauwhe> ... and there are events like the digital publishing summit in paris at the end of june
00:45:41 <dauwhe> ... I'll talk there, about how epub has helped market expansion in japan
00:46:00 <dauwhe> ... any other news or ideas about public relations re: epub 3.2?
00:46:39 <dauwhe> ... today the pbg co-chair luc has sent everyone a notice about the advisory board election is until 30 May 2019
00:47:08 <dauwhe> ... all AC reps, please vote soon
00:47:22 <dauwhe> ... and consider Avneesh, our pbg colleague
00:47:35 <Makoto> +1 > dauwhe
00:47:37 <dauwhe> ... and we have the digital publishing summit program available now
00:47:57 <dauwhe> ... with many pbg folks speaking
00:48:25 <dauwhe> ... and we need to work on the program for the pbg meeting on thursday at tpac in fukuoka
00:48:31 <dauwhe> ... and registration is now open
00:48:42 <dauwhe> ... and the better price is only available until june 21
00:48:55 <dauwhe> ... and you can look at the registration link
00:49:08 <dauwhe> ... otherwise I'll talk about prep for the tpac f2f
00:49:14 <dauwhe> ... it will be three hours, 9-12
00:49:42 <dauwhe> ... overall coordination will be done by pbg co-chairs Luc, Daihei, and Liisa
00:49:51 <dauwhe> ... we need to find a program committee to help us
00:50:03 <dauwhe> ... if you want to volunteer, please send a message to one of the chairs
00:50:14 <dauwhe> ... and we will provide a first draft agenda
00:50:30 <dauwhe> ... an intro by murai-san
00:50:38 <dauwhe> ... a11y in japan
00:50:42 <dauwhe> ... wp profiles
00:51:19 <Makoto> Hom much do external attendees have to pay to attend the meeting?
00:51:31 <dauwhe> ... some of the agenda could be decided by japanese pbg members and invited guests, and could be in japanese with translation
00:51:43 <dauwhe> ... and when people speak in english it could be translated to japanese
00:52:05 <dauwhe> q?
00:52:37 <dauwhe> Daihei: makoto was asking about price for attending just the pbg f2f
00:52:57 <dauwhe> ... but what about outside members?
00:53:10 <dauwhe> ... I will have to ask w3c about this
00:53:26 <dauwhe> ... any comments?
00:53:45 <dauwhe> ... we have covered the agenda
00:53:52 <dauwhe> ... thanks everyone
00:54:05 <dauwhe> RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:54:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/05/28-pbg-minutes.html dauwhe
00:54:21 <dauwhe> RRSAgent, make logs public
00:54:36 <dauwhe> RRSAgent, make logs public
00:54:48 <Makoto> Yes, it is now available!
00:54:49 <dauwhe> https://www.w3.org/2019/05/28-pbg-minutes.html
00:55:10 <Makoto> BYe now.
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12:54:27 <dauwhe> RRSAgent, bye
12:54:27 <RRSAgent> I see no action items