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15:00:44 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:00:44 <trackbot> Date: 23 May 2019
15:00:49 <cyril> chair: nigel
15:00:52 <cyril> scribe: cyril
15:01:03 <cyril> present: cyril, gary, glenn
15:01:08 <cyril> present+ nigel
15:01:15 <cyril> present+ pierre
15:01:25 <cyril> agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/39
15:01:32 <nigel> Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/05/23-tt-irc
15:02:22 <nigel> Regrets: Andreas, Thierry
15:02:39 <cyril> Topic: This meeting
15:03:22 <cyril> nigel: we'll talk about WebVTT IR and 2 issues for TTML2
15:03:28 <cyril> ... one for TTML profile registry
15:03:40 <cyril> ... in AOB an update from Philippe on the charter
15:03:49 <cyril> ... anything else?
15:04:10 <cyril> Topic: WebVTT Implementation Report
15:04:22 <cyril> Implementation report: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/WebVTT_Implementation_Report
15:04:34 <nigel> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/WebVTT_Implementation_Report WebVTT Implementation Report
15:04:53 <cyril> nigel: this was discussed a little bit
15:05:07 <cyril> ... I raised concern that there was not enough evidence to make a decision
15:05:19 <cyril> ... I don't think the group has seen enough that the exit criteria are met
15:05:29 <cyril> gkatsev: I discussed offline with Nigel
15:05:35 <cyril> ... about what should be done
15:05:45 <cyril> ... I did not have a chance to snapshot the spreadsheet
15:05:53 <cyril> ... some tests are still showing 0
15:06:14 <cyril> ... the test is old and it was not expectin gthe API to throw
15:06:28 <cyril> ... it sounds like the spec calls the lines to be unsigned long
15:06:40 <cyril> ... but if the value is too big it throws
15:06:53 <cyril> ... that sounds like an implementation issue, not a spec issue
15:07:07 <cyril> nigel: the point of the IR is to show that whatever is specified is implemented
15:07:31 <cyril> ... so the tests are doing their job showing that impl. don't implement the spec
15:07:40 <cyril> gkatsev: for this particular test, the test is out of date
15:08:05 <cyril> ... if you take the negative test, it shows that it is working otherwise
15:08:22 <cyril> nigel: if you update the test to match the spec, the test will pass?
15:08:34 <cyril> gkatsev: no, because implementation only allow integer
15:08:55 <cyril> ... to me that looks like an incredibly minor difference
15:08:59 <cyril> ... we could change the spec
15:09:26 <glenn> glenn has joined #tt
15:09:26 <cyril> ... the other big thing is the HTML character entities
15:09:36 <cyril> ... and it seems a impl bug that they don't support all of them
15:09:45 <cyril> ... there is a bug filed against Safari
15:09:59 <cyril> ... and I have a proof of concept showing that it's implementable
15:10:03 <nigel> q?
15:10:31 <cyril> nigel: in terms of steps to take to show the evidence that exit criteria are met
15:10:37 <cyril> ... one is showing it on the wiki
15:10:46 <cyril> ... and showing that everything is implemented
15:10:57 <cyril> ... is it worth doing a planning for that
15:11:10 <cyril> gkatsev: I can just keep working through it
15:11:25 <cyril> ... is there a document describing exit criteria
15:11:40 <cyril> nigel: it's in the status of the document part of the CR
15:12:30 <cyril> gkatsev: I think we're pretty much there
15:12:40 <cyril> nigel: this assessment is based on your spreadsheet
15:12:53 <cyril> ... but you told us some of the tests are problematic
15:13:03 <cyril> ... and a bunch of the tests are red
15:13:41 <cyril> gkatsev: safari has a slightly non-conformant implementation of regions
15:13:57 <cyril> nigel: to be clear, we are testing agains the spec
15:14:06 <cyril> s/agains/against/
15:14:30 <cyril> gkatsev: it sounds like this is an implementation bug
15:14:39 <cyril> ... with a minor tweak everything does work
15:14:54 <cyril> nigel: sure but the exit criteria says it's based on the test results
15:15:12 <cyril> ... if there is a story to be told about the significance of the test failure, maybe
15:15:22 <cyril> ... you need to highlight that in the IR
15:15:39 <cyril> gkatsev: that totally makes sense
15:15:49 <cyril> ... there are a couple of tests like this
15:16:14 <cyril> ... I'll have a more detailed list of tests when the IR is more complete
15:16:44 <cyril> nigel: in terms of spec edits, you have a PR open, Silvia approved it
15:16:54 <cyril> gkatsev: it'll stay open until we request to go to PR
15:17:07 <nigel> q?
15:17:07 <cyril> nigel: makes sense
15:17:28 <cyril> Topic: TTML2 and TTML3
15:18:00 <cyril> github: w3c/ttml2#1054
15:18:13 <cyril> glenn: I'm working on that, stay tuned
15:18:19 <cyril> nigel: same answer as last time
15:18:19 <nigel> Topic: Clarify relative profile designator does not use xml:base (#1033). ttml2#1054
15:18:26 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1054
15:19:08 <cyril> nigel: the reason you are working on it is because you think changes are needed
15:19:17 <cyril> glenn: yes, I'll have an update before the next meeting
15:19:29 <cyril> nigel: is it worth sharing your initial thoughts
15:19:31 <cyril> glenn: no
15:19:47 <pal> pal has joined #tt
15:19:59 <cyril> glenn: I'll reach out to you separately if I need
15:20:12 <cyril> Topic: Character-related style properties should not apply to ruby containers.
15:20:22 <cyril> github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1043
15:20:31 <cyril> nigel: can we get a resolution?
15:21:52 <cyril> glenn: the big picture I see is "applies to" is a CSS notion, formally defined in the CSS spec
15:21:58 <glenn> https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/REC-CSS2-20110607/about.html#applies-to
15:22:18 <cyril> ... it lists the elements to which the property applies
15:22:29 <cyril> ... we must note that a ruby container is not an element
15:22:38 <cyril> ... it is a specific span
15:22:50 <cyril> ... and then in CSS, all elements have all properties
15:22:59 <cyril> ... but some properties have no effect
15:23:04 <cyril> ... that's the guidance we get from CSS
15:23:11 <cyril> ... XSL-FO and TTML follow that
15:23:25 <cyril> ... applies to refers to element types and deals with rendering effect
15:24:11 <cyril> ... the question here is to add language to the 18 style properties to say that it does not apply to ruby containers
15:24:16 <nigel> q+ to note that TTML2 doesn't say that "applies to" is as per the CSS convention
15:24:31 <cyril> ... ie. the top level container, the ruby container and the text container
15:24:43 <cyril> ... my position is that we should not add this language
15:24:56 <cyril> ... the semantics depend on the content of the element
15:25:13 <cyril> ... the issue of rendering effect may or may not apply depending on other semantics
15:25:19 <cyril> ... having renderable text in it
15:25:38 <cyril> ... we added some language in my PR then in his PR
15:26:02 <cyril> ... we both seem to have agreed on language to say that it does not apply
15:26:17 <cyril> ... the only disagreement is whether or not to add language
15:26:22 <cyril> ... to the properties
15:26:31 <cyril> ... there are 3 properties to which it applies
15:26:45 <cyril> ... direction, unicode bidi and XXXX
15:27:03 <cyril> ... for the other 15, the semantics only apply to glyph areas
15:27:38 <cyril> ... the bottom line is that there was no case of a ruby container producing glyph areas to which these 15 properties could apply
15:27:45 <cyril> ... there is a semantic no-op
15:28:07 <nigel> q?
15:28:22 <cyril> ... in the interest of giving readers a clue, I did add a note to the PR
15:28:35 <cyril> ... in the 10.2.35.1
15:29:00 <cyril> ... that highlights for the reader that there is no significance to the fact that a property can apply
15:29:07 <cyril> ... I think my PR covers all the case
15:29:27 <cyril> ... with the exception of tweaking properties regarding the notion of glyph areas
15:29:48 <cyril> nigel: you described very clearly your thoughts process, which makes sense
15:30:07 <nigel> ack n
15:30:07 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to note that TTML2 doesn't say that "applies to" is as per the CSS convention
15:30:21 <cyril> ... the need to clarify "applies to" is because there is some ambiguity
15:30:45 <cyril> ... for something like ruby-align, the "applies to" sets a precedent
15:30:52 <cyril> ... in giving more information
15:31:22 <glenn> q+
15:31:46 <cyril> ... the CSS spec is a bit interesting
15:32:01 <cyril> ... because it refers to conceptual things that are elements in HTML
15:32:06 <cyril> ... but not elements in TTML
15:32:18 <cyril> ... that makes me think we should be clearer in the spec
15:32:23 <cyril> ... we did it for ruby align
15:32:33 <cyril> ... we should be helpful for the other properties
15:33:15 <cyril> ... I wouldn't do that for tts:color saying that it applies to character content of an element, that's too obvious
15:33:39 <nigel> ack glenn
15:33:42 <cyril> glenn: so raised 3 things
15:33:43 <pal> q+
15:33:59 <cyril> ... we don't explicitly refer to the CSS definition of "applies to"
15:34:03 <cyril> ... that's true
15:34:20 <cyril> ... XSL-FO uses it without referring to it explicitly
15:34:40 <cyril> ... we have to balance use of references with clutter in the spec
15:34:48 <cyril> ... I could add a formal reference
15:35:02 <cyril> ... the 2nd point about ruby-align's precedence
15:35:07 <cyril> ... is a bad way to go
15:35:23 <cyril> ... my preference would be to remove the existing text in ruby-align (and the other one)
15:35:37 <cyril> ... we can embellish the prose to make it clear
15:35:49 <cyril> ... maybe that's part of why we are where we are
15:36:02 <cyril> ... turning 2 into 17 is a bad way to go
15:36:15 <cyril> ... it complicates tracking that semantics
15:36:22 <cyril> ... it clutters the table in my opinion
15:36:45 <cyril> the 3rd point is about clear to implementers
15:36:55 <cyril> ... the spec is not an implementation guide
15:37:01 <cyril> ... somebody can write one
15:37:18 <cyril> ... if you look at MPEG-2 systems spec, there is no information about implementation
15:37:35 <cyril> ... we are in good company when we don't put implementation details
15:37:49 <cyril> what I'm willing to do is add some text to conventions
15:37:56 <cyril> ... remove text from ruby align
15:37:58 <cyril> ... but not more
15:38:00 <nigel> ack pal
15:38:08 <cyril> pal: let's keep it simple
15:38:21 <cyril> ... "applies to" is extremely useful to implementers
15:38:30 <cyril> ... if a particular element is not on that list
15:38:42 <cyril> ... implementation can bypass it for rendering
15:39:02 <cyril> ... for instance that text-decoration is not on applies to for div, is already there and useful
15:39:36 <cyril> ... I see no reason not to continue on the path of listing things to what elements a property applies
15:39:59 <cyril> ... to the point that the ruby-containers are not "elements", that's knit-picking
15:40:37 <cyril> ... I think it's consistent and useful to list ruby containers on the list things to which a property applies or not applies
15:40:44 <cyril> cyril: I agree with listing them
15:41:12 <cyril> nigel: under the ruby attributes, there is a CSS mapping
15:41:19 <cyril> ... that's useful
15:41:25 <cyril> ... let's not forget that it's there
15:42:28 <cyril> glenn: even if we were to add something, we want to not repeat text
15:42:55 <cyril> ... style properties cannot apply to nothing
15:43:03 <cyril> pal: what about text-decoration?
15:43:51 <cyril> glenn: [explains underline and box model
15:44:14 <cyril> ... we have consistently done that in the spec
15:44:33 <cyril> ... they apply to span because applying to div is for inheritance
15:44:42 <cyril> pal: that's different, there is an inheritance line
15:45:15 <cyril> glenn: it's because it applies to the most nest glyph area
15:45:22 <cyril> s/nest/nested/
15:45:36 <cyril> pal: your logic doesn't work
15:45:55 <cyril> ... you say text decoration cannot apply to div because it would be confusing
15:46:05 <cyril> ... but you're saying the opposite for ruby container
15:46:57 <cyril> [scribe having problems following and scribing]
15:48:35 <cyril> glenn: when I reviewed all the 18 styles that are proposed to be changes
15:49:45 <cyril> ... both the text-decoration and text-emphasis properties have applies to glyph areas or inline ares
15:50:23 <cyril> ... the 15 properties do not have the same text
15:51:08 <cyril> ... my conclusion was that all 15 style properties, the semantics of those relate to glyph areas
15:51:18 <cyril> ... generated by anonymous spans or spans
15:51:33 <cyril> nigel: on the point of removing inline areas from text decoration
15:51:50 <cyril> ... CSS spec says, applies to all elements
15:52:14 <cyril> ... but there is specific text that says that underline only applies to text
15:52:22 <cyril> ... for example not on images
15:52:39 <cyril> ... but the difference between CSS and TTML is that CSS has blink
15:52:49 <cyril> glenn: I agree
15:52:59 <cyril> ... and I should handle that with a separate issue
15:53:13 <cyril> ... one could fathom having blink apply to a box
15:53:20 <cyril> ... in the CSS semantics
15:53:35 <cyril> ... so since we don't have blink, we could remove that
15:53:43 <cyril> ... I'll do that in another PR
15:54:02 <cyril> ... but that means that the 15 properties have languages that say that they apply to glyph area
15:54:15 <cyril> ... and since it's not possible to generate glyph areas in the ruby containers
15:54:26 <cyril> ... there is no logical way that it applies
15:54:40 <cyril> ... so it would be redundant and clutter
15:54:47 <cyril> ... that's the basis of my objection
15:54:59 <cyril> ... that's what I added in the note
15:55:22 <cyril> nigel: pal are you satisfied?
15:55:24 <cyril> pal: no
15:55:49 <cyril> ... text decoration is not on applies to for div, the same should apply to ruby containers
15:55:56 <cyril> ... I'm even more convinced
15:57:00 <cyril> nigel: as a chair, I see several people thinking additional text is needed and I see a single voice (glenn) thinking it is not needed
15:57:50 <cyril> glenn: for text decoration, I could add language or note in the prose
15:58:33 <cyril> ... and if pierre sees other properties where that is confusing, I could add text
15:58:49 <cyril> pal: I don't understand why we don't want to reuse the "applies to" line
15:59:07 <cyril> ... cyril suggested to use definitions to avoid wordy lines
15:59:11 <cyril> ... that's a good idea
15:59:21 <cyril> ... we shouldn't use prose gymnastics for that
15:59:48 <cyril> glenn: one cannot avoid reading the prose to understand the effect
15:59:52 <cyril> ... of rendering
16:00:04 <cyril> pal: right, but "applies to" is a bypass
16:06:52 <cyril> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-regions-1/#the-region-fragment-property
16:15:31 <nigel> scribe: nigel
16:15:58 <nigel> post-conversation-summary: The group was not able to find consensus at this time on how
16:16:19 <nigel> .. to progress, either procedurally or editorially.
16:16:46 <nigel> .. Glenn stated his willingness to adjust the prose for tts:textDecoration specifically and
16:17:02 <nigel> .. no other style attribute, to clarify that it does not have any effect on inline areas, but
16:17:26 <nigel> .. only on text.
16:18:24 <nigel> .. The group does have consensus on the handling of LWSP and for defining the usage of
16:19:08 <nigel> .. "applies to" as per CSS2's convention, and that style attributes that have rendering
16:19:30 <nigel> .. effects only on text content can be excluded from consideration by those ruby
16:19:48 <nigel> .. containers that are not permitted to contain text content.
16:20:13 <nigel> .. The remaining disagreement is whether or not to add qualifying text to those style
16:21:07 <nigel> .. attributes (normatively in the Applies to row of the style table) to describe this exclusion, with Glenn opposed, Cyril, Nigel and Pierre in favour.
16:30:54 <nigel> .. No clear path forward to resolve this at this time.
16:30:57 <nigel> Topic: Meeting close
16:31:13 <nigel> Nigel: Reminder that I'm not available to chair next week so if the meeting is to go ahead
16:31:31 <nigel> .. then we need an alternative volunteer chair.
16:31:37 <nigel> .. [adjourns meeting]
16:31:40 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/05/23-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:44:14 <nigel> s|Implementation report: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/WebVTT_Implementation_Report||
16:48:07 <nigel> s/the 3rd point is about clear to implementers/.. the 3rd point is about clear to implementers
16:48:16 <nigel> s/what I'm willing to do is add some text to conventions/.. what I'm willing to do is add some text to conventions
16:50:27 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:50:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/05/23-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:54:24 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:54:25 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:54:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/05/23-tt-minutes.html nigel
18:01:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tt