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15:00:35 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:00:35 <trackbot> Date: 02 May 2019
15:01:24 <cyril> scribe: Cyril
15:01:28 <cyril> chair: Nigegl
15:01:31 <cyril> chair: Nigel
15:01:52 <cyril> Present: Cyril, Glenn, Andreas
15:02:02 <cyril> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/36
15:02:21 <cyril> Present+ Nigel
15:02:27 <cyril> Present+ Gary
15:02:29 <gkatsev> gkatsev has joined #tt
15:02:43 <nigel> Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/05/02-tt-irc
15:03:19 <cyril> Present+ Pierre
15:03:42 <cyril> Topic: this meeting
15:03:57 <cyril> nigel: we'll talk about charter, and as sub-point, explainers
15:04:13 <cyril> ... on the ttreq, we have 3d reqs on the agenda
15:04:23 <cyril> ... webvtt
15:04:32 <cyril> ... in terms of TTML2 and TTML3 nothing on the agenda
15:04:44 <cyril> ... we have one item for the profile registry
15:04:52 <cyril> ... AOB I duplicated the event
15:04:59 <cyril> ... from last week
15:05:21 <cyril> pal: do you have issue 1043 on the agenda?
15:05:50 <cyril> ... also I would like to make progress on fonts and embedded font files, IMSC issue 472
15:06:24 <cyril> nigel: on 1043 I took the agenda off last week because we said we'll talk offline
15:06:48 <cyril> pal: on 472, it's about how to prevent somebody from going crazy here
15:07:10 <cyril> Topic: TTWG Charter
15:07:55 <cyril> Regrets: Thierry
15:08:12 <cyril> nigel: we don't have plh
15:08:33 <cyril> ... is everyone happy to send the draft to W3M for review in order to submit it to AC
15:08:37 <cyril> ... any objection to it?
15:09:08 <cyril> pal: we spoke a lot about it and we're all happy
15:09:32 <cyril> resolution: forward the current draft charter to W3M for review
15:09:50 <cyril> s/resolution/RESOLUTION/
15:10:07 <cyril> nigel: next one is we set a deadline for explainers
15:10:14 <cyril> ... there has been some work which is good
15:10:19 <cyril> ... not everything is there
15:10:26 <cyril> ... we have 2 explainers on the wiki
15:10:34 <nigel> -> https://github.com/w3c/tt-reqs/wiki tt-reqs wiki
15:10:47 <cyril> ... one on audio description and one on karaoke
15:11:35 <cyril> cyril: I have 2 explainers left: responsive timed text and advanced japanser
15:11:48 <cyril> nigel: I had to do an explainer on live
15:12:00 <cyril> ... I'm waiting for some elements from EBU
15:12:08 <cyril> ... it's good to have some progress
15:12:17 <plh> plh has joined #tt
15:12:23 <cyril> Present+ Philippe
15:12:44 <cyril> nigel: it would be good if people could have a read and send feedback
15:13:13 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:13:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/05/02-tt-minutes.html plh
15:13:54 <nigel> scribe: nigel
15:14:08 <nigel> Cyril: I wasn't sure exactly how to write the explainer, and am not sure if it's what was expected.
15:14:23 <nigel> .. It seems to be a living design document.
15:14:52 <nigel> Glenn: I think we're overblowing process. We should not mandate these explainers.
15:15:07 <nigel> .. On the point about karaoke, I have to say I'm not on board with the proposal in terms of the approach
15:15:19 <nigel> .. and need to discuss an alternative way that does not introduce a new element type.
15:15:24 <nigel> Cyril: I'm open to discussion.
15:15:39 <nigel> Glenn: I have some ideas about how to do it. I think we should avoid prematurely documenting
15:16:02 <nigel> .. design choices that might make the explainer misleading.
15:16:25 <cyril> scribe: cyril
15:16:41 <cyril> nigel: I don't see a problem with having a living document
15:16:48 <cyril> ... describingg the design
15:16:57 <cyril> ... it's a tool to try and reach consensus
15:17:13 <cyril> ... we should try to produce them
15:18:08 <cyril> plh: it will take a week or two to get feedback on the charter
15:18:22 <cyril> ... I don't expect to receive much feedback given that the document is light
15:18:33 <cyril> nigel: do you need anything more regarding deliverables
15:19:41 <cyril> plh: I would expect the charter to be approved by the director by the end of june
15:19:57 <cyril> ... since there is no change of scope, we can go ahead with working drafts
15:20:08 <cyril> ... I'm not even sure we'll send a new call for participation
15:20:28 <cyril> nigel: one goal of the charter revision was to make it clear that the audio description would be in charter
15:20:40 <cyril> ... members of the audio description cg might join
15:21:00 <cyril> ... it was unclear that we had audio description on the charter
15:21:16 <cyril> plh: then I will issue a call to join and you will have 45 days to rejoin
15:22:38 <nigel> scribe: nigel
15:22:53 <nigel> Cyril: On the Karaoke proposal I'm trying to implement a renderer for the new features
15:23:11 <nigel> .. I'm trying to represent quite complex examples and try to make sure that it is simple for simple
15:23:24 <nigel> .. examples. I also have a draft specification but it might completely change depending on the outcome.
15:23:42 <nigel> .. I wrote it as an extension to TTML2 in the sense that it defines a new feature, just one at the moment.
15:24:02 <nigel> .. It is an extension in the sense that it defines some vocabulary that is added on top of TTML2.
15:24:11 <nigel> .. It doesn't mention modules.
15:24:33 <nigel> Glenn: Just to let you know what I'm thinking is that instead of an element type have a new
15:24:46 <nigel> .. attribute tts:marker with some values. We should discuss this further.
15:25:00 <nigel> Cyril: Yes, I'm open to discussing it. I would like to conclude soon to move to a FPWD.
15:25:03 <plh> q+
15:25:09 <nigel> Glenn: Let's schedule some discussion time
15:25:17 <nigel> Pierre: I'd like to be part of those discussion
15:25:21 <nigel> ack plh
15:25:44 <nigel> Philippe: I don't know how this relates to the old CSS aural properties
15:25:52 <nigel> Glenn: I don't think it's related at all. I'm familiar with those.
15:26:03 <nigel> .. The new audio properties intersect with those but not the marker concept.
15:26:15 <nigel> Philippe: I don't think those old CSS properties were implemented largely.
15:26:25 <nigel> .. I wanted to add that Explainers are wanted by the TAG for example.
15:26:40 <nigel> .. It's not just for the purpose of a WG conversation. It will be useful further down the line.
15:26:53 <nigel> Cyril: I agree to write these explainers especially for that purpose.
15:27:02 <nigel> .. Otherwise I'm of the opinion that it adds a burden as Glenn.
15:28:02 <cyril> scribe: Cyril
15:28:14 <cyril> nigel: explainers will be helpful for others
15:28:24 <cyril> plh: to determine if they want to review the specification
15:28:48 <cyril> nigel: any other comment on the explainers?
15:29:05 <cyril> Topic: 3D requirements
15:29:12 <cyril> atai2: I wanted to give an update
15:29:23 <cyril> ... there are 3 things we need to consider
15:29:33 <cyril> ... 1 reqs have been submitted
15:29:40 <cyril> ... 2 liaison sent to MPEG
15:29:49 <cyril> ... 3 discussion on going with broader community
15:30:18 <cyril> ... for the requirements, after discussing with stakeholders, we need some more discussions about the scope
15:30:43 <cyril> ... one main question is if it should be just for subtitles in 360 or omnidirectional media or should it be applicable to VR and AR
15:30:51 <cyril> ... first reaction is always yes
15:31:11 <cyril> ... but then for AR and VR it's much more complicated because the viewer is moving
15:31:35 <cyril> ... we need to discuss if we want to limit the scope
15:31:43 <cyril> ... MPEG liaison is only 360
15:32:00 <cyril> ... from the draft from MPEG, it's really another area we need to work in
15:32:14 <cyril> ... we need to see if need to specify additional information items, positioning ...
15:32:26 <cyril> ... or if we have a complete different environment that we need to work with
15:32:36 <cyril> ... we could review how fonts are handled
15:32:52 <cyril> ... I think we should just discuss MPEG draft deeply
15:33:19 <cyril> ... on the broader discussion, the immersive web always asks to open an issue before they decide to work on it
15:33:23 <cyril> ... Peter filed an issue there
15:33:29 <cyril> ... some discussion on-going
15:33:41 <cyril> ... I tried to get attention from accessibility groups
15:33:51 <cyril> ... I spoke to Alan Sterns from CSS
15:34:13 <cyril> ... we need to have a broader spectrum of people looking at it
15:34:31 <cyril> ... there will be a call on May 21st, 10 am PT, to discuss this in the Immersive CG
15:34:37 <cyril> ... everybody can join
15:35:07 <cyril> ... I hope we can have a discussion on the TTWG meeting next week before the call to see how the grgoup handles this issue
15:35:37 <cyril> Topic: WebVTT
15:35:50 <cyril> gkatsev: last night I submitted a PR to add in a couple of file tests missing
15:36:17 <cyril> ... I've always started thinking about what to say in the IR and should be able to produce it soon
15:36:32 <cyril> nigel: the Web Platform tests have not been rerun
15:36:36 <cyril> ... are they run nightly>
15:36:42 <cyril> s/>/?
15:36:51 <cyril> ... possibly not every day
15:36:57 <cyril> plh: are they run automatically?
15:37:04 <cyril> gkatsev: I think so
15:37:16 <cyril> nigel: are you talking about wpt.fyi ?
15:37:31 <cyril> s/nigel/gkatsev/
15:37:58 <cyril> gkatsev: because a lot of the tests are rendering tests, my spreadsheet is probably most up to date
15:38:07 <cyril> nigel: ok so we expect the IR in the coming week
15:38:56 <cyril> Topic: TTML Profile Registry
15:39:16 <cyril> nigel: about issue 71
15:39:28 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/issues/71
15:39:56 <cyril> cyril: the request is to add a substantive change in the IANA section that defines the combination operators
15:40:09 <cyril> ... mike is not on the call for a while
15:40:18 <cyril> ... but he does think that it ought to be there
15:40:37 <cyril> ... my recollection is that it should be defined and compliant to RFC
15:40:56 <cyril> glenn: we have to qualify what you mean by "define"
15:41:03 <nigel> s/cyril/nigel
15:41:13 <cyril> ... it is not defined in the body of the media type registration
15:41:31 <cyril> nigel: at the moment it is defined what it means
15:41:47 <nigel> scribe: nigel
15:41:59 <nigel> Cyril: The syntax is defined but absent from the IANA registry.
15:42:08 <nigel> .. It seems odd to have an informal definition when the rest is formal.
15:42:22 <nigel> Glenn: The only issue previously was if we should trigger the IANA review process.
15:42:30 <nigel> .. If everyone is happy with that then we can go ahead.
15:42:47 <nigel> Pierre: I'm not objecting to going through the IANA process but noting that we have trouble
15:43:05 <nigel> .. getting this out so I'm concerned about our level of resource.
15:43:18 <nigel> Glenn: We have updated our document and IANA references our document so we have formally
15:43:21 <nigel> .. updated it.
15:46:43 <cyril> scribe: Cyril
15:46:48 <cyril> cyril: I will prepare a PR
15:47:43 <cyril> nigel: I don't share the concern about resources given that we don't have a hard deadline
15:48:18 <cyril> Topic: TTML2 and TTML3 Pull Requests
15:48:49 <cyril> github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1043
15:49:01 <cyril> nigel: last time we said that we would deal with this offline
15:49:21 <cyril> pal: given that we are all here, we could have a shot at closing it
15:49:27 <atai2> atai2 has left #tt
15:49:29 <cyril> glenn: let's spend 5 min
15:49:44 <cyril> pal: my homework was to review Glenn's PR
15:49:57 <atai2> atai2 has joined #tt
15:50:08 <cyril> ... there are 2 subtle points: text nodes being ignored and the applicability of styles to containers
15:50:18 <cyril> ... the PR that Glenn had proposed adresses both
15:50:27 <cyril> ... I'm happy with the way the PR adresses the first point
15:50:39 <cyril> ... not found a better way of doing it
15:50:45 <cyril> ... on the second part, I'm less happy
15:50:49 <cyril> ... it's buried in a note
15:51:04 <atai2> atai2 has left #tt
15:51:08 <cyril> ... and it does not address specifically if a propery applies or not
15:51:44 <cyril> glenn: it's my opinion that if we define that LWSP is ignored in that context, irrespective of white-space attribute, for presentation
15:51:54 <cyril> ... and if we say that LWSP is forbidden
15:52:15 <cyril> ... we just need to add text for the error case
15:52:24 <cyril> pal: look at the example I posted in 1043
15:52:44 <cyril> ... there are 2 underlines that appear underneath hello
15:52:57 <cyril> nigel: I did not notice that before
15:54:49 <cyril> pal: my question is do we actually want text decoration to apply to the text container, ever
15:55:04 <cyril> glenn: you can construct an example that does not even involve ruby
15:55:18 <cyril> ... with outer spans and inner spans
15:55:35 <cyril> ... the intent of the specification is to not apply to all of them
15:55:53 <cyril> ... also similar to XSL FO
15:56:10 <cyril> pal: for div and p, this is obvious that it does not apply
15:56:26 <cyril> ... what I have not tried is the difference between inline block vs inline
15:56:56 <cyril> glenn: the semantic model for decoration in TTML is that it only applies to the most deeply nested text characters
15:57:08 <cyril> ... you don't have decorations applied to upper leve
15:57:14 <cyril> s/leve/level/
15:57:25 <cyril> ... ttpe does not do the behavior you are describing
15:57:38 <cyril> ... it may be an artefact of CSS or IMSC.js
15:57:47 <cyril> pal: I'm of hte same opinion
15:57:57 <cyril> ... that it does not apply to text container
15:58:01 <nigel> q+
15:58:06 <cyril> ... but I want it to be clear
15:58:23 <cyril> glenn: I'm not happy to have the same text in all properties
15:58:38 <cyril> ... I can tweak the note
15:58:49 <cyril> pal: that note is not sufficient
15:58:57 <cyril> ... it does not cover the case we are looking at right now
15:59:55 <cyril> nigel: Pierre's proposal very clearly is to add a clause to apply to to the various style attributes
16:00:12 <cyril> ... to add unless text container or ruby container
16:00:18 <cyril> ... any objection to that?
16:00:30 <cyril> glenn: we decided to avoid repetition
16:00:42 <cyril> nigel: you can refactor that to avoid repetition
16:00:52 <cyril> ... for example defining a term for a class of span
16:01:09 <nigel> ack n
16:01:48 <cyril> glenn: on this text decoration, I'm not sure that an interpretation of TTML2 can lead to that
16:02:12 <cyril> nigel: my reading of this is that you can interpret it that way
16:02:26 <cyril> ... if you think adding a normative statement is a no-op
16:02:38 <cyril> ... there should be no problem going ahead
16:03:20 <cyril> nigel: we are over time, we'll adjourn to same time next week
16:03:22 <plh> regrets for next week
16:04:15 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/05/02-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:05:14 <nigel> s/Nigegl/Nigel/g
16:05:41 <nigel> s/chair: Nigel//
16:05:43 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/05/02-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:06:55 <nigel> s/we don't have plh/we don't have plh yet [later update: he joined a few minutes later]
16:07:52 <nigel> s/Topic: TTML Profile Registry/TTML Profile Registry issue #71
16:08:27 <nigel> s/Topic: TTML2 and TTML3 Pull Requests/TTML2 Issue #1043
16:08:43 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:08:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/05/02-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:09:38 <nigel> s/TTML Profile Registry issue #71/Topic: TTML Profile Registry issue #71
16:09:57 <nigel> s/TTML2 Issue #1043/Topic: TTML2 Issue #1043
16:09:59 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/05/02-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:11:17 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:11:18 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:11:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/05/02-tt-minutes.html nigel