15:02:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
15:02:28 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/04/25-tt-irc
15:02:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:02:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #tt
15:02:32 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:02:32 <trackbot> Date: 25 April 2019
15:02:39 <cyril> chair: Nigel
15:02:42 <cyril> scribe: Cyril
15:02:54 <cyril> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/34
15:04:08 <nigel> Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/04/25-tt-irc
15:04:30 <glenn> glenn has joined #tt
15:04:39 <cyril> Present: Nigel, Cyril, Gary, Andreas, Pierre, Nigel
15:04:47 <cyril> Present+ Glenn
15:04:57 <cyril> Present+ Thierry
15:05:12 <atai2> atai2 has joined #tt
15:05:23 <cyril> Topic: this meeting
15:05:34 <cyril> nigel: I've put the charter but not sure there is anything to discuss
15:05:40 <cyril> ... WebVTT IR is important of course
15:05:47 <cyril> ... 2 issues marked for Agenda on TTML2
15:05:52 <cyril> ... and one issue on the profile registry
15:06:12 <cyril> ... I've just added an AOB about an Accessibility Event in June, it's a notification
15:06:19 <cyril> ... anything AOB missing?
15:06:34 <cyril> Topic: TTWG Charter
15:07:09 <cyril> nigel: the status is that we'll ask to be sent for AC review end of next week
15:07:18 <cyril> ... by that point we should have explainers
15:07:34 <atai2> q+
15:07:36 <cyril> thierry: was it presented to w3m?
15:07:56 <cyril> ... before going to AC it should be validate by w3m
15:08:18 <cyril> nigel: the issues was apply the correct list of chairs, something about webvtt
15:08:41 <cyril> ... it's my expectation that it will need some validation first
15:08:51 <cyril> ... any comment on the current draft charter
15:08:56 <cyril> atai2: regarding the explainers?
15:09:36 <cyril> atai2: I haven't been at the meeting where explainers were discussed
15:09:44 <cyril> ... I updated the requirements for 360 subs
15:10:01 <cyril> ... my conclusion is that I don't expect that we'll publish something this year
15:10:17 <cyril> ... discussions are needed to scope this area and write requirements
15:10:32 <cyril> ... I will not be able to write explainers soon
15:11:02 <cyril> nigel: as the leader of this activity, if you say we'll need to defer this, I'm fine
15:11:11 <plh> present+
15:11:38 <cyril> atai2: the charter is not only covering 2019, up to 2021
15:11:48 <cyril> nigel: yes but the requirements agreed were for this year
15:11:56 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #tt
15:12:06 <cyril> atai2: I just wanted to know if it is ok to delay the explainer until we have better scope
15:12:22 <cyril> nigel: we have received an incoming liaison from MPEG
15:12:43 <cyril> ... if we defer will there be an impact on these industry timelines
15:13:10 <cyril> ... will we miss the 'right' time to publish something in TTML?
15:13:33 <cyril> atai2: I don't think we'll be able to deliver something final for this activity in 2019
15:14:01 <cyril> plh: I forwarded an email on monday
15:14:14 <cyril> ... and I will forward another one
15:14:21 <cyril> glenn: I reviewed the document this morning
15:14:30 <cyril> ... and it's relevant
15:14:36 <cyril> ... for timed text
15:14:43 <cyril> nigel: thanks for looking at that
15:15:10 <cyril> glenn: it basically provides an out of band mechanism for associating a timed text region with a 360 region
15:15:25 <atai2> q+
15:15:47 <cyril> atai2: MPEG's document is member confidential
15:16:42 <cyril> plh: there are 2 documents: the PDF liaison
15:16:58 <cyril> ... and the real meat is the 2 technical documents referenced
15:17:05 <cyril> ... and they are ISO confidential
15:17:32 <cyril> ... as long as we don't copy these documents here we're fine
15:17:39 <cyril> nigel: I agree minutes are fine
15:18:04 <cyril> cyril: discussing documents, minuting this discussion, is fine
15:18:24 <cyril> nigel: andreas do you think it's still best to defer that piece of work, in this group, until 2020
15:18:48 <cyril> atai2: we should discuss MPEG's document in the group and see what our input can be and see from there
15:19:08 <cyril> ... there is not only ISO/MPEG but the Web Community Group
15:19:28 <cyril> atai2: I still would like to postpone it
15:19:41 <cyril> ... but I'm also ok to postpone the decision to postpone
15:19:52 <cyril> ... it does not make sense for me right now to produce an explainer
15:20:12 <cyril> glenn: presumably, this work will be published in a separate module
15:20:22 <cyril> ... so it can have it's own timeline
15:20:31 <cyril> ... and the charter is not explicit about it
15:20:52 <cyril> ... putting end of 2019 as a hard date of all possible rec-track documents is probably not a good idea
15:21:03 <cyril> ... we should focus on TTML2 2nd edition and TTML3
15:21:15 <cyril> ... and the modules that we do finish by the end of the year
15:21:18 <nigel> q?
15:21:20 <cyril> ack
15:21:21 <nigel> ack at
15:21:48 <cyril> nigel: I sent a little summary of explainers to people involved
15:22:06 <cyril> ... anything else on the charter?
15:22:25 <cyril> ... for philippe, at the end of next it will be taken by staff for managment review
15:22:35 <cyril> plh: yes, that will take us 3 to 4 weeks
15:22:44 <cyril> ... it may take less but I cannot guarantee that
15:22:51 <cyril> ... will need horizontal review ...
15:23:00 <cyril> ... I can even circulate it asap if you like to
15:23:09 <cyril> ... it doesn''t have to be 100% final
15:23:16 <cyril> nigel: you can do that
15:23:54 <cyril> ... I think the remaining issues are PLH to address
15:24:10 <cyril> Topic: WebVTT Implementation Report
15:24:20 <cyril> nigel: what's the status?
15:24:28 <cyril> gkatsev: unfortunately, not much time
15:24:37 <cyril> ... we're missing 2 tests: vertical and text combine
15:24:47 <cyril> ... adding should be easy and I should have some time
15:25:02 <cyril> ... also working with Eric to fix display of vertical cues in Safari so that can pass
15:25:15 <cyril> ... text combine, it seems that no browsers support it yet
15:25:20 <cyril> ... not sure what to do about that
15:25:22 <plh> q+
15:25:33 <plh> https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues
15:25:38 <nigel> ack plh
15:25:42 <cyril> plh: there are still some issues not classified in the WebVTT repo
15:25:58 <cyril> ... it would be nice if they are to remain open until the next version
15:26:08 <cyril> ... we should make the decision as a WG to move the spec to PR
15:26:15 <nigel> q+
15:26:19 <cyril> ... either starting the CfC next week or the week after
15:26:35 <cyril> ... we publish the updated CR on May 4th
15:26:52 <nigel> ack nigel
15:26:56 <cyril> ... and unless someone has an issue, we should move ahder
15:27:04 <plh> s/publish/published/
15:27:13 <cyril> nigel: for me, that is dependent on the IR being ready
15:27:16 <plh> s/May 4th/April 4th/
15:27:31 <cyril> ... until we have that, we cannot have the CfC
15:27:38 <cyril> plh: when can we have the IR ready
15:27:51 <cyril> gkatsev: I already have the spreadsheet
15:27:58 <cyril> ... what would be necessary?
15:28:10 <cyril> nigel: we need to have good understanding that the test set is complete
15:28:27 <cyril> ... and we create some document describing the set
15:28:36 <cyril> plh: if we have the spreadsheeet ...
15:28:42 <cyril> nigel: it might be enough
15:29:03 <cyril> gkatsev: I can model WebVTT's IR based on the spreadsheet to look like IMSC's IR
15:29:14 <nigel> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report IMSC 1 IR
15:29:29 <cyril> plh: that page needs to contain information that cannot go in the spreadsheet
15:29:51 <cyril> ... the criteria is 2 implementations of every feature
15:30:11 <cyril> ... but this is open to interpretation, depending on whether the test is corner case or not
15:31:32 <cyril> ... the tests may not represents an entire feature, if it fails, it may be ok if it is a corner case
15:31:48 <cyril> gkatsev: I can think of one, right now, font-variant
15:32:40 <cyril> ... CSS as a feature is validated but some CSS properties, white listed, are not supported
15:32:53 <cyril> nigel: we should actually test that non white listed properties are ignored
15:33:01 <cyril> ... there is a must for that
15:33:09 <cyril> ... and it's important
15:33:33 <cyril> ... we need just one example of a property that is not white listed and see that it is ignored
15:33:36 <cyril> plh: I agree
15:33:51 <cyril> gkatsev: font-variant is white listed as part of the font shorthand
15:34:09 <cyril> plh: is the test testing as part of the shorthand?
15:34:37 <cyril> ... one way to solve this is to check with the CSS WG the status of this
15:34:46 <cyril> ... and see if Chrome considers this as a bug
15:35:03 <cyril> ... or if relying on it is dangerous
15:35:15 <cyril> ... and in the latter case, putting a note in the spec about it
15:35:27 <cyril> ... or if another approach is needed
15:35:44 <cyril> ... gary if you identify other such properties
15:35:47 <cyril> ... let me know
15:35:57 <cyril> ... I can take the action to check with CSS about these properties
15:36:53 <cyril> gkatsev: I'll take a look at them, and they might be implemented as vendor-prefixed
15:37:39 <cyril> plh: if it goes in even more details, like units, we might have to go into more details too
15:37:58 <cyril> nigel: so there is still some work to do to provide the IR, before we can issue the CfC
15:38:03 <cyril> ... anything else?
15:38:19 <cyril> plh: for the purpose of the charter, I'd like to understand what the group thinks
15:38:28 <cyril> ... it looks like we could publish CR
15:38:37 <cyril> ... and in that case it should be in the charter
15:38:53 <cyril> ... if you are not ok with that, you should speak about it
15:39:21 <cyril> nigel: for charter, we need to have adequate participation, chair and strategy review
15:39:32 <cyril> plh: we need to know who is going to maintain?
15:39:50 <cyril> ... and if part of the charter, it needs to be TTWG?
15:40:19 <cyril> pal: the only question mark in the charter was chairing that
15:40:29 <cyril> ... gary has been active, so we have editing resources
15:40:36 <cyril> ... but the chairing part is not clear
15:40:47 <cyril> plh: I don't think the chairing part is going to be difficult
15:41:09 <cyril> pal: the charter has a TBD
15:41:14 <cyril> plh: and I have an action on that
15:41:33 <cyril> ... either I convince Nigel or I need to convince someone else
15:41:48 <cyril> gkatsev: I want to see this through so I might step up if needed
15:42:07 <cyril> plh: reach out to me directly if you want to discuss this
15:42:37 <cyril> Topic: TTML2 and TTML3 Pull Requests
15:42:56 <cyril> nigel: 2 issues
15:43:20 <nigel> Topic: Add IMSC profile designators to Table 5-2. ttml2#1034
15:43:25 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1034
15:43:48 <pal> pal has joined #tt
15:43:52 <cyril> glenn: I reviewd that and the suggested approach looks reasonable to me and I will prepare a PR
15:44:00 <cyril> nigel: thank you, done, then
15:44:44 <nigel> Topic: Character-related style properties should not apply to ruby containers. ttml2#1043
15:44:49 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1043
15:45:01 <cyril> glenn: on this one I posted a PR and haven't got a review
15:45:15 <cyril> pal: I reviewed it and proposed an alternative PR
15:45:27 <cyril> glenn: I'll take a look at that
15:45:44 <cyril> pal: my main question is really: does that match your understanding?
15:46:04 <cyril> ... my alternate PR want to be extremely explicit to see if we agree
15:46:19 <cyril> glenn: you want to address the possible ambiguity of white space preserve
15:46:37 <cyril> ... in anonymous text spans as children of these containers
15:46:47 <cyril> ... I hate dealing with dueling PR
15:46:59 <cyril> pal: you raised an interesting point
15:47:10 <cyril> ... another dimension of the issue is XML space
15:47:19 <cyril> ... and applicability, this is not a style property
15:47:37 <cyril> ... my alternative PR does not address that, so maybe we need to merge both PR
15:48:10 <cyril> nigel: on the point of XML space preserve, a naive interpretation means that there is character content
15:48:21 <cyril> glenn: basically, we don't want it to be
15:48:44 <cyril> ... it was never the intention that the text content of containers would be treated as text
15:49:04 <cyril> so I tweaked that in my PR
15:50:19 <cyril> ... another thing to keep in mind is that text nodes in containers will be wrapped in anonymous span, so there is no more character content directly in the container
15:50:31 <cyril> pal: I had not considered that when I filed the ticket
15:50:40 <cyril> ... maybe the 2 PRs are complementary
15:51:01 <cyril> ... nigel, what's your take on the white space issue?
15:51:11 <cyril> nigel: glenn's PR says that it ignores it
15:51:29 <cyril> ... my comment is broader, it's about any text, not white space
15:51:44 <cyril> glenn: there are already rules that rule out non-whitespace character
15:51:58 <cyril> ... are you asking about what happens when the content is invalid?
15:52:03 <cyril> nigel: yes
15:52:18 <cyril> glenn: in many cases, we don't specify what happens in case of error
15:52:27 <cyril> ... if you are a validating processor, you could reject
15:53:02 <cyril> nigel: I can see why you have the explicit exception about linear white space
15:53:29 <cyril> glenn: at that time I had not realized the ambiguity about preserve
15:53:50 <cyril> ... I want to reiterate
15:54:03 <cyril> ... since there are no character content that can appear as a child of container
15:54:30 <cyril> ... my original statement was that we don't need to say anything
15:54:43 <cyril> ... that's when he introduced the ambiguity about white space
15:55:02 <cyril> ... and since that is addressed, I think we don't need to say anything about properties that apply to character content
15:55:35 <cyril> ... that's why I don't think we need to put special case in each property for this
15:55:48 <cyril> nigel: but they do apply for inheritance
15:55:53 <cyril> glenn: right
15:55:58 <cyril> ... I pointed that out in the note
15:56:09 <cyril> pal: but inheritance is not application
15:56:18 <cyril> glenn: right, application means semantic application
15:56:28 <cyril> pal: like font-size does not apply to region
15:56:41 <cyril> ... my PR is to make it more explicit
15:56:50 <cyril> ... I do have a question about audio properties
15:57:04 <cyril> glenn: I do not like the approach of putting special case language in each property
15:57:12 <cyril> pal: you should consider the amount of change
15:57:20 <cyril> ... there's already special cases
15:57:59 <cyril> glenn: having repetition of the same statement in may properties is not a good thing
15:58:07 <cyril> s/may/many/
15:58:19 <cyril> summary: we'll continue reviewing the PR offline to reach consensus
15:59:39 <cyril> Topic: Profile Registry
15:59:52 <cyril> glenn: we agreed in prior meetings to go ahead and publish
15:59:59 <cyril> ... I need directions on how to do that
16:00:11 <cyril> nigel: it's published
16:00:31 <cyril> glenn: excellent
16:00:59 <cyril> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:00:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/04/25-tt-minutes.html cyril
16:01:36 <cyril> RRSAgent, make minutes public
16:01:36 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', cyril.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:02:35 <cyril> s/so I tweaked that in my PR/...so I tweaked that in my PR/
16:02:52 <atai2> atai2 has left #tt
16:17:23 <nigel> Topic: AOB
16:17:45 <nigel> Nigel: I just wanted to mention for information that I've been invited to speak about W3C accessibility stuff at an ITU
16:18:10 <nigel> .. event in Geneva on June 7, and plan to attend and do that. There's a link to the event in the agenda - if you want to
16:18:19 <nigel> .. discuss this any more please get in touch with me offline.
16:18:23 <nigel> Topic: Meeting Close
16:18:43 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks all, we didn't have time to discuss the TTML Profile Registry issue so defer that until next week.
16:19:14 <nigel> .. I'll look at the load for next week and decide 1 or 2 hours, but please let me know if you have additional topics by Tuesday so I can schedule it. [adjourns meeting]
16:19:18 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:19:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/04/25-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:21:00 <nigel> s/ack//
16:21:19 <nigel> s/managment/management
16:21:56 <nigel> s/ahder/ahead
16:25:13 <nigel> s/so I tweaked that in my PR/glenn: so I tweaked that in my PR
16:26:04 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:26:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/04/25-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:26:59 <nigel> i/Nigel: I just/scribe: nigel
16:27:01 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:27:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/04/25-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:27:25 <nigel> s/ack//
16:27:27 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:27:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/04/25-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:28:12 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:28:13 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/04/25-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:35:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tt