IRC log of dxwg on 2019-04-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:40:54 [RRSAgent]
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19:40:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to
19:41:02 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, make logs public
19:41:41 [PWinstanley]
regrets+ Alejandra, Antoine
19:41:59 [PWinstanley]
chair: PWinstanley
19:42:11 [PWinstanley]
meeting: DXWG Plenary
19:42:26 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
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I have made the request to generate PWinstanley
19:59:52 [roba]
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20:01:03 [DaveBrowning]
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20:01:27 [roba]
20:02:44 [annette_g]
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20:03:08 [ncar]
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20:03:28 [ncar]
20:04:08 [DaveBrowning]
20:06:23 [AndreaPerego]
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20:06:36 [AndreaPerego]
20:07:03 [PWinstanley]
20:07:06 [ncar]
scribe: ncar
20:07:11 [annette_g]
20:07:25 [DaveBrowning]
rrsagent, draft minutes v2
20:07:25 [RRSAgent]
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20:07:43 [ncar]
trackbot, start telcon
20:07:46 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:07:49 [trackbot]
Meeting: Dataset Exchange Working Group Teleconference
20:07:49 [trackbot]
Date: 09 April 2019
20:08:00 [ncar]
chair: PWinstanley
20:08:37 [AndreaPerego]
20:08:38 [ncar]
20:08:56 [riccardoAlbertoni]
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20:09:04 [AndreaPerego]
20:09:05 [ncar]
apologies: makx, LarsG
20:09:22 [ncar]
regrets: makx, LarsG
20:09:33 [ncar]
regrets+ makx, LarsG
20:09:41 [DaveBrowning]
rrsagent, draft minutes v2
20:09:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DaveBrowning
20:09:53 [AndreaPerego]
s/regrets: makx, LarsG//
20:10:08 [roba]
20:10:14 [DaveBrowning]
20:10:22 [ncar]
proposed: Accept minutes from last meeting
20:10:23 [annette_g]
they look empty
20:10:25 [PWinstanley]
20:10:25 [AndreaPerego]
20:10:45 [AndreaPerego]
0 (was not there)
20:10:57 [riccardoAlbertoni]
20:11:07 [ncar]
20:11:13 [annette_g]
0 (was not there)
20:11:26 [DaveBrowning]
regrets+: Antoine, Alejandra
20:11:27 [ncar]
resolved: Accept minutes from last meeting
20:11:37 [DaveBrowning]
rrsagent, draft minutes v2
20:11:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DaveBrowning
20:11:44 [ncar]
topic: Japan meeting
20:11:45 [riccardoAlbertoni]
20:11:51 [AndreaPerego]
s/regrets+: Antoine, Alejandra/regrets+ Antoine, Alejandra/
20:11:52 [ncar]
PWinstanley: we must book by the 12th
20:12:23 [ncar]
PWinstanley: perhaps only 2 people will attend
20:12:24 [AndreaPerego]
I am very unlikely to be able to come - but can join remotely.
20:12:38 [ncar]
PWinstanley: are we missing anyone?
20:12:40 [roba]
i wont be able to make it.
20:12:45 [AndreaPerego]
Do we have a page for the f2f?
20:12:45 [ncar]
I will not be able to attend in person
20:13:25 [ncar]
PWinstanley: My gut feeling is that this is not a "goer" and we should work out what issues should be discussed here and do a virtual meeting
20:13:30 [AndreaPerego]
"Virtual" f2f would be good - maybe more than 1
20:13:30 [DaveBrowning]
20:13:32 [ncar]
PWinstanley: are there any other views?
20:13:36 [PWinstanley]
ack DaveBrowning
20:13:42 [ncar]
ack: DaveBrowning
20:13:50 [ncar]
20:13:58 [AndreaPerego]
s/ack: DaveBrowning//
20:14:32 [ncar]
PWinstanley: are you happy if I ignore the deadline (not booking)?
20:14:36 [AndreaPerego]
Can we try and do a poll?
20:14:40 [ncar]
I am ok with no booking
20:14:48 [AndreaPerego]
I mean, before no booking.
20:14:59 [ncar]
proposed: do not book a room
20:15:14 [AndreaPerego]
20:15:17 [ncar]
20:15:31 [riccardoAlbertoni]
20:15:42 [AndreaPerego]
20:15:44 [DaveBrowning]
20:15:45 [roba]
20:15:47 [PWinstanley]
ack AndreaPerego
20:16:10 [ncar]
AndreaPerego: we should ask the mailing list this
20:16:40 [ncar]
PWinstanley: this meeting seems not to go
20:17:03 [AndreaPerego]
20:17:09 [ncar]
action: PWinstanley to email the mailing list about not having a Fukuoka meetig
20:17:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-321 - Email the mailing list about not having a fukuoka meetig [on Peter Winstanley - due 2019-04-16].
20:17:21 [AndreaPerego]
20:17:59 [AndreaPerego]
topic: outstanding actions
20:18:05 [ncar]
topic: action items
20:18:10 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:18:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AndreaPerego
20:18:19 [AndreaPerego]
s/topic: outstanding actions//
20:18:22 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:18:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AndreaPerego
20:18:59 [ncar]
proposed: close action 319
20:19:10 [roba]
yep UTC 2000
20:19:31 [AndreaPerego]
20:19:40 [AndreaPerego]
20:19:53 [AndreaPerego]
close action-319
20:19:53 [trackbot]
Closed action-319.
20:20:11 [ncar]
PWinstanley: the spreadsheet is there as a reminder
20:20:18 [ncar]
topic: subgroup progress reports
20:20:23 [roba]
* just found my response to conneg meeting time bounced - sent from wrong address
20:20:29 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:20:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AndreaPerego
20:20:50 [ncar]
PWinstanley: would like to discuss conneg first and a vote on 2PWD is needed
20:21:14 [PWinstanley]
ncar: we had a couple of critical things to address whchi has resulted in 2 small editorial PRs
20:21:25 [PWinstanley]
... and some technical errors have been resolved.
20:21:25 [AndreaPerego]
20:21:47 [PWinstanley]
... There are a large set of small issues to address, as well as some philosophical issues
20:21:58 [PWinstanley]
... we would like to go to 2PWD now
20:23:33 [PWinstanley]
the philosophical concern is whether some issues are normative or not
20:23:35 [roba]
the spec does not make the QSA implementation normative, either as an option or a specific implementation.
20:23:55 [roba]
20:23:55 [AndreaPerego]
20:24:00 [PWinstanley]
ack roba
20:24:11 [AndreaPerego]
20:24:28 [annette_g]
20:25:25 [ncar]
roba: the QSA approach is about human-readablity and is not normative - a recommendation - but it has the conceptual model in common with the HTTP realization
20:26:40 [ncar]
PWinstanley: is all of the contentious material well described? We must put the main points at the front
20:27:21 [ncar]
roba: Yes, but are the issues clarified, is there a mechanism to process the issue, this is the main point
20:27:33 [ncar]
roba: can we improve the clarity of the spec
20:27:44 [ncar]
PWinstanley: we still have this issue of tokens
20:28:06 [PWinstanley]
20:28:07 [ncar]
roba: anyone useing a QSA approach will (likely) use tokens, but must provide URIs
20:28:13 [PWinstanley]
ack annette_g
20:29:10 [ncar]
annette_g: questioning the normative nature of the document- one doesn't need to do both realizations, this is clear, but the text about QSA says its normative and I don't think it should be
20:29:52 [ncar]
annette_g: I have written about this in GitHub and the main problem I see is we have a Use Case about human profile selection and I don't think they need to go through a negotiation approach to do this
20:30:34 [ncar]
annette_g: show them what their options are (a list) but I don'd see a Use Case for negotiation as this makes it harder for humens - hides options
20:31:14 [roba]
sense is quaified by the following sentence - so can we improve this to avoid this confusion?: "this realization is fully specified here and this document is considered normative for the QSA realization. This realization does not preclude other QSA specifications for profile and content negotiation."
20:31:20 [ncar]
PWinstanley: I can see how this woould work for a single server but how about for federated? Would giving options in this scenario were not all servers can do the same thing would work?
20:31:49 [ncar]
annette_g: there would be an application that gives options within a viewport
20:31:50 [ncar]
20:32:10 [ncar]
annette_g: specifying viewport (forms) is beyond the scope of this document
20:32:17 [PWinstanley]
ack ncar
20:32:21 [roba]
form based approach is supported by profiles vocabulary - and conneg does not dictate this
20:33:31 [roba]
specifically conneg does not go anywhere near telling clients how to handle multiple dimensions - it does not force a cartesian product of choices to be listed
20:33:33 [roba]
20:34:36 [PWinstanley]
ack roba
20:40:30 [ncar]
roba: we can't specify how all conneg options are displayed to users. We can't expect implementers to all move to new HTTP methods - too hard. We aren't violating the principles of the web by specifying visible content- use of PROF might guide that. Providing a minumal mechanism for human profile negotiation is the goal - a real set of Use Cases
20:40:48 [ncar]
PWinstanley: is your point that this approach is privilidged by its mention above others?
20:40:57 [DaveBrowning]
rrsagent, draft minutes v2
20:40:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DaveBrowning
20:41:07 [ncar]
annette_g: yes, there are lots of ways people could implement this and implementer needs may vary
20:41:12 [roba]
only two calls...
20:41:23 [ncar]
annette_g: implementers should not be told specificlally how to implement
20:41:27 [ncar]
20:41:44 [PWinstanley]
ack ncar
20:42:03 [DaveBrowning]
20:42:41 [PWinstanley]
ncar: there is a section (key naming) that describes how negotiation has to take place, and it specifically says that there are alternative approaches
20:42:54 [PWinstanley]
... there are only 3 functions involved
20:43:07 [roba]
20:43:10 [PWinstanley]
... it is a minimal list
20:43:39 [ncar]
annette_g: I find it odd (confusing) that the document has a notmative section then with qualifiers later
20:43:50 [roba]
sounds like we need to revisit the communication more than the content...
20:43:59 [AndreaPerego]
20:44:10 [PWinstanley]
ack AndreaPerego
20:44:44 [DaveBrowning]
20:45:02 [ncar]
AndreaPerego: I see a number of things to be fixed - empty boxes to be filled, some with people's names
20:45:44 [ncar]
AndreaPerego: a section (related work) on CSW should be added as it's common, I can draft text for this, similar to OAI-PMH
20:45:54 [ncar]
* we accept your offer!
20:46:05 [DaveBrowning]
20:46:21 [ncar]
20:46:27 [PWinstanley]
ack ncar
20:47:01 [AndreaPerego]
20:47:04 [PWinstanley]
ncar: I can draft the CSW section today, if that was seen as critical, esp if AndreaPerego gave pointers to this and the empty boxes
20:47:08 [PWinstanley]
ack AndreaPerego
20:47:08 [riccardoAlbertoni]
20:47:47 [roba]
i dont see empty boxes...
20:47:55 [AndreaPerego]
20:48:41 [roba]
is this a javascript issue at your end?
20:49:20 [roba]
QSA discussion is an open issue still - thats the way we deal with these things - lets see if there are more comments on this
20:49:23 [AndreaPerego]
20:49:33 [ncar]
PWinstanley: does the group feel it's in a position to vote knowing Andrea has raised small editorial issues and annette_g has raised a larger issue?
20:49:35 [AndreaPerego]
20:49:40 [PWinstanley]
ack AndreaPerego
20:49:46 [DaveBrowning]
20:50:00 [roba]
issue is already there
20:50:08 [annette_g]
20:50:14 [ncar]
AndreaPerego: a suggestion- to include a note in the QSA section about whether this is normative or not is under discussion
20:50:14 [PWinstanley]
ack annette_g
20:50:19 [DaveBrowning]
rrsagent, draft minutes v2
20:50:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DaveBrowning
20:50:52 [ncar]
annette_g: there are already a lot of those, we may be better off discussing in person before a PWD. I worry about change later
20:51:03 [ncar]
PWinstanley: can others contribute please?
20:51:20 [riccardoAlbertoni]
20:51:24 [PWinstanley]
ack riccardoAlbertoni
20:52:09 [ncar]
riccardoAlbertoni: my understanding is that we want the 2nd draft out to concerntrate on other deliverables so external comment can be received
20:52:23 [roba]
we have one comment that has been identified as being about interpretation of what normative for an optional part means - and one person not seeing a Use Case does no invalidate it when consensus has accepted that Use Case. we need to find a way to move on.
20:53:02 [DaveBrowning]
20:53:13 [ncar]
PWinstanley: decision chairs took was that Profiles Guidance doc was not in as mature a shape. Conneg was to be addressed but not if it slowes down DCAT work
20:53:18 [annette_g]
there are others. Antoine had reservations as well, for one.
20:53:35 [ncar]
20:53:58 [PWinstanley]
ack DaveBrowning
20:54:20 [ncar]
DaveBrowning: I'm not convinced that we can't move this in parallel to DCAT
20:54:27 [ncar]
I agree - different people usually
20:55:23 [ncar]
DaveBrowning: there's a lump that will come through when we come to PR time but seemingly no block now addressing Andrea's issues and perhaps Annette's more complex one. We should not stope trying to fix this
20:55:46 [ncar]
PWinstanley: do you (Dave) have any ideas about addressing these issues
20:55:49 [ncar]
20:55:54 [roba]
20:55:55 [PWinstanley]
ack ncar
20:56:00 [annette_g]
I would not be screaming
20:57:14 [roba]
20:57:57 [DaveBrowning]
20:58:17 [PWinstanley]
ack roba
20:58:38 [DaveBrowning]
20:58:43 [annette_g]
20:59:00 [ncar]
roba: this ability to support human- & machine-readable profile choices for profiles is the my (OGC) motivation here
20:59:20 [annette_g]
20:59:38 [ncar]
PWinstanley: perhaps the editors are too close to a specific set of mechanisms?
21:00:05 [annette_g]
21:00:19 [ncar]
roba: actually this is a process issue about which Use Cases apply and we shouldn't block on not everyone buying in to all use cases
21:00:45 [ncar]
roba: we may also have a communication issue which can be improved
21:01:13 [PWinstanley]
ack DaveBrowning
21:01:16 [ncar]
PWinstanley: I understand this but I am exporing other options
21:01:49 [ncar]
DaveBrowning: point on dropping QSA section- our charter says we must provide fallback mechanisms to HTTP
21:01:51 [PWinstanley]
ack annette_g
21:02:45 [ncar]
annette_g: I am not the only one with reservations about QSA, Antoine & Alejandra too
21:02:59 [ncar]
annette_g: for consensus, we all need to listen to one another
21:03:07 [roba]
alejandra has participated so i dont think there is an issue here - we dont have other active discussions
21:03:27 [ncar]
PWinstanley: what would the document look like if you (Annette) were creating it? How would you address QSA?
21:04:14 [roba]
thtas what it is - so please feel free to suggest better introductory wording
21:04:16 [ncar]
annette_g: if the charter really requires this (fallback approaches) then I would consider a non-normative section with an example of dataset selections via profile
21:04:49 [ncar]
annette_g: issued as you would an Open Source software package - shared code. Don't understand the need to make it a standard
21:05:10 [ncar]
PWinstanley: we are at the end of today with discussion still in place.
21:05:15 [DaveBrowning]
DaveBrowning: Charter text at "An explanation of how to implement the expected RFC and suitable fallback mechanisms as discussed at the SDSVoc workshop."
21:05:44 [ncar]
PWinstanley: do you (annette_g) understand Antoine & Alejandra's view?
21:05:52 [ncar]
annette_g: Antoine's yes
21:05:53 [DaveBrowning]
DaveBrowning: Though doesn't mean QSA specifically...
21:06:30 [ncar]
PWinstanley: I would like to put this out to wider discussion with points of contention known. This may allow others (feedback) to assist us with these issues
21:07:09 [DaveBrowning]
rrsagent, draft minutes v2
21:07:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DaveBrowning
21:07:19 [ncar]
PWinstanley: we have another meeting before Easter break, do you (annette_g) think we can push a vote to next week - there are things we can do in the interveaning week for this?
21:08:08 [ncar]
PWinstanley: can I ask annette_g to Articulate what would bring about a more balanced view on QSA
21:08:20 [ncar]
annette_g: I have made my points in issues - what more can I do?
21:08:54 [ncar]
PWinstanley: we need to have issues in writing (in the document?), not just what we agree in discussions (meetings)
21:09:21 [ncar]
annette_g: if you want something quick, pull that section out, no time to re-write in a week
21:09:31 [ncar]
PWinstanley: we will have to deal with this in correspondence
21:10:35 [ncar]
PWinstanley: we are at an impass but need text that suits everybody, can you (annette_g) provide a little text, rather than pulling a section out?
21:11:08 [ncar]
PWinstanley: if we can work on the text and show this (QSA) is one of a range of potential approaches, this might be more suitable to Annette, Antoine & Alejandra's view
21:11:20 [ncar]
annette_g: can I work on the text of a subset?
21:11:23 [ncar]
PWinstanley: yes
21:11:53 [ncar]
action: annette_g to Work on the text of a subset of conneg to better convey her (and others) view
21:11:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-322 - Work on the text of a subset of conneg to better convey her (and others) view [on Annette Greiner - due 2019-04-16].
21:12:15 [riccardoAlbertoni]
thanks good night
21:12:16 [AndreaPerego]
Thanks, bye!
21:12:17 [ncar]
rrsagent, generate minutesv2
21:12:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ncar
21:12:18 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
21:12:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate PWinstanley
21:29:33 [annette_g]
annette_g has joined #dxwg