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15:04:31 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/04/08-pwg-irc
15:04:32 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:04:32 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:04:32 <ivan> Chair: wendy
15:04:32 <ivan> Date: 2019-04-08
15:04:32 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2019Apr/0002.html
15:04:32 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-04-08: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2019Apr/0002.html
15:04:33 <ivan> Regrets+ tzviya, rachel, geoff, mateus, Luc, Yoshii
15:08:43 <Karen> Karen has joined #pwg
15:42:59 <wendyreid> regrets+ Nick, Teenya, Matt
15:43:21 <wendyreid> regrets+ vlad
15:51:16 <wendyreid> regrets+ mateus
15:58:26 <George> George has joined #pwg
15:58:39 <ivan> present+
15:58:56 <George> present+ George
15:59:05 <wendyreid> present+
15:59:48 <BenSchroeter> BenSchroeter has joined #pwg
15:59:55 <BenSchroeter> present+
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16:01:21 <josh> josh has joined #pwg
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16:01:44 <josh> present+
16:02:00 <BenSchroeter> I can try to scribe (if my internet doesn't drop)
16:02:12 <ivan> scribenick: BenSchroeter
16:02:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pwg
16:02:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
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16:02:57 <simon_collinson> present+
16:03:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> Wendy is Tzviya today
16:03:17 <garth> garth has joined #pwg
16:03:21 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2019/2019-04-01-pwg
16:03:23 <franco> franco has joined #pwg
16:03:23 <gpellegrino> present+
16:03:25 <garth> present+ Garth
16:03:38 <rkwright> present+ rkwright
16:03:47 <BenSchroeter> Minutes from last week approved
16:03:47 <ivan> resolved: last week's minutes accepted
16:03:52 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pwg
16:04:02 <franco> present+
16:04:10 <ivan> Topic: CG announcement
16:04:30 <Avneesh> present+
16:04:30 <ivan> s/CG/Publishing CG/
16:04:31 <BenSchroeter> Announcement: publishing community group has 2 chairs, meetings to start soon
16:04:45 <bigbluehat> present+
16:04:55 <BenSchroeter> free to join if interested
16:05:39 <ivan> q+
16:05:53 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:05:57 <garth> q?
16:06:05 <duga> duga has joined #pwg
16:06:17 <duga> present+
16:06:39 <laurent_> laurent_ has joined #pwg
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16:06:54 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/408
16:06:59 <marisa> marisa has joined #pwg
16:07:05 <laurent_> present+ Laurent
16:07:06 <marisa> present+
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16:07:20 <ivan> Topic: Should there be a TOC if supplemental materials are provided in an audio book?
16:07:32 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: issue 408: should there be a TOC? spec says there must be if supplemental content is present in the resources. Any opposition?
16:07:37 <garth> q+
16:07:41 <Avneesh> +1
16:07:42 <wendyreid> ack garth
16:08:39 <BenSchroeter> garth: TOC is an ordered list; for many of these supplemental contents there is no specific order
16:09:03 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid:  if we don't put it in the TOC it is not referenceable for a user agent
16:09:23 <Avneesh> q+
16:09:29 <BenSchroeter> garth: putting in TOC implies an order that it may not have
16:09:38 <marisa> q+
16:09:41 <wendyreid> ack Avneesh
16:10:07 <BenSchroeter> avneesh: it has some order; not entirely random
16:10:29 <BenSchroeter> alt text html file follows dame principle, must be in TOC
16:10:30 <wendyreid> ack marisa
16:10:56 <BenSchroeter> marisa: reminds me of landmarks in EPUB - not necessarily inherent order
16:11:25 <BenSchroeter> don't agree that supp content needs same treatment as alt content
16:11:55 <Avneesh> q+
16:11:58 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: supp content can be a list of charts or pics of an author
16:12:00 <wendyreid> ack Avneesh
16:12:05 <ivan> q+
16:12:09 <BenSchroeter> avneesh: concept is similar
16:12:13 <wendyreid> ack ivan
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16:12:38 <BenSchroeter> ivan: why is supp material so special that having it listed in the resources is not enough?
16:12:41 <josh> +1 to Ivan
16:12:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to resources
16:12:55 <George> q+
16:13:15 <BenSchroeter> wwendyreid:  how should resources be represented in reading order?
16:13:22 <wendyreid> ack George
16:13:35 <ivan> q+
16:14:01 <duga> q+
16:14:04 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:14:06 <marisa> q+
16:14:07 <BenSchroeter> george: resources always referenced by something; having them in TOC is provides standard mechanism to get at them
16:14:34 <BenSchroeter> ivan: resources is a list of references to files, each of which can have one to many rel values
16:14:55 <marisa> q-
16:15:07 <BenSchroeter> from that point on it's up to the user agent to find
16:15:17 <BenSchroeter> george: rel value is in the manifest
16:15:31 <BenSchroeter> ivan: yes, there may be
16:15:43 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/405
16:16:08 <wendyreid> ack duga
16:16:49 <BenSchroeter> brady: want to avoid getting bad audiobook TOCs, prefer it be an optional requirement because reading system may be able to impose its own more accurate TOC
16:17:39 <laurent_> q+
16:17:41 <BenSchroeter> ...TOC should not be required just to have a list of supp materials
16:17:43 <wendyreid> ack laurent_
16:17:43 <George> Brady has a very good point.
16:18:46 <BenSchroeter> laurant: agreed, for textbooks we have a special rel called cover, that allows us to put it in a TOC or not. if there is a small set of supp content that we always find in audiobooks, let's use rel values like we use cover
16:18:51 <George> TOC should be meaningful and something a RS can trust.
16:19:27 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: instead of a required TOC of supp content, we require rel value that is applicable to that type of content
16:19:37 <marisa> q+
16:20:17 <BenSchroeter> george: having a TOC that, when present, is good and utilizable, sounds like putting a requirement on the reading system to use it if present
16:20:49 <wendyreid> ack marisa
16:20:50 <laurent_> q+
16:20:54 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: if the publisher has cgone to the effort, it is likely that the reading system should pay attention to it. but can't define "good" TOC
16:21:29 <wendyreid> ack laurent_
16:21:35 <BenSchroeter> marisa: it might be confusing if treatment is different accross reading systems
16:22:14 <BenSchroeter> laurant: we are living with that with covers currently - reading systems deal with differently
16:22:33 <bigbluehat> q+ to ask about multiple rel's, and publisher capabilities
16:22:35 <ivan> s/laurant/laurent/
16:22:40 <BenSchroeter> ...if the rel value is not in the TOC, then the reading system won't see it? best practice instead of requirement
16:22:41 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
16:22:41 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to ask about multiple rel's, and publisher capabilities
16:23:54 <laurent_> q+
16:23:58 <wendyreid> ack laurent_
16:24:01 <BenSchroeter> bigbluehat: not necessarily an ordered list; publishers can't define order if we just have resources floating - needs to be expressible by publishers
16:24:30 <bigbluehat> q+
16:24:34 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
16:24:39 <BenSchroeter> laurant: need to define what is wanted - are there other things besides booklets?
16:24:50 <Avneesh> q+
16:25:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:25:24 <wendyreid> ack Avneesh
16:25:25 <BenSchroeter> bigbluehat: if this is a foundational data model that we are going to share, we may have publications with a whole host of supp content
16:25:52 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
16:25:55 <BenSchroeter> avneesh: if there is an order that publisher want to define for supp content TOC is compulsory
16:26:32 <ivan> q+
16:26:36 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:27:56 <George> q+
16:27:57 <BenSchroeter> ivan: if there is supp content that has an order, there is no need to make TOC is compulsory, because that is what will be used. the toc doesn't really make sense for content that is not in order. unnecessary to require TOC if x and y are true, for example.
16:28:05 <wendyreid> ack George
16:28:39 <duga> q+
16:29:23 <BenSchroeter> george: consistency between base spec an audiobook spec would be great, as much as possible.
16:29:27 <wendyreid> ack duga
16:30:02 <BenSchroeter> duga: the more I hear about potential use cases, the less I think we should use TOC for suupp materials, and tackle when we discuss synchronized media
16:30:50 <BenSchroeter> ... textbook and audio appear at the same time, for example
16:30:55 <marisa> q+ to say yes
16:31:00 <wendyreid> ack marisa
16:31:00 <Zakim> marisa, you wanted to say yes
16:31:33 <garth> garth has joined #pwg
16:32:01 <BenSchroeter> marisa: we have an ussue currently regarding alternative media, like adding sychronized media to an audiobook (audiobook with text use case)
16:32:46 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: we should create a mechanism to enable this, but also for when this doesn't happen
16:33:41 <BenSchroeter> marisa: maybe we should have the information in more than one place, even though that can be a bummer for reading systems
16:33:52 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: will revisit this topic soon
16:34:08 <ivan> Topic: File hashes
16:34:22 <BenSchroeter> Topic: durations
16:34:23 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/307
16:34:32 <ivan> Topic: duration in the context of WPUB
16:35:23 <rkwright> regrets.  I have to drop off early.
16:35:37 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: duration for entire content vs. duration at the resource level
16:36:08 <ivan> q+
16:36:12 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:36:36 <BenSchroeter> ivan: durtion currently defined in draft - nothing in there is audiobook specific
16:37:09 <BenSchroeter> ...ability to add duration to a resource is generic - doesn't have to be audio could be video or whatever else
16:37:40 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/420
16:38:39 <Avneesh> q+
16:38:41 <BenSchroeter> ...does it make sense to have a duration for the book as a whole? for audio books, it is a requirement, but not for a general web publication. but this may not be restricted to audio books. Maybe there could be a video book. The concept is generic, but it may be a requirement for audiobooks and not for general web publications.
16:38:43 <wendyreid> ack Avneesh
16:39:32 <BenSchroeter> avneesh: generic, but in audio profile should be compulsory. But what is duration of whole book? Does that include branches that are not included in the reading order?
16:39:54 <duga> q+
16:40:03 <wendyreid> ack duga
16:40:16 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: Never seen a case where resources are not part of the reading order, but it could be possible. So we should include them in the entire duration.
16:40:59 <bigbluehat> q+
16:40:59 <BenSchroeter> duga: what is definition of accurate as far as duration? want to make sure there is no requirement for the reading system.
16:41:04 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
16:41:09 <BenSchroeter> ivan: what happens today?
16:41:18 <BenSchroeter> duga: we determine the duration:
16:41:45 <BenSchroeter> bigbluehat: agree with duga
16:41:50 <marisa> q+
16:41:53 <Avneesh> Duration is important metadata
16:41:56 <wendyreid> ack marisa
16:42:32 <BenSchroeter> marisa: we will need this for sync media too; might not be a precise, e.g. user turns off page number announcements
16:42:34 <ivan> q+
16:43:16 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:43:22 <BenSchroeter> National Library Service guy: agree that the reading system should manage
16:43:36 <BenSchroeter> sorry:
16:43:52 <BenSchroeter> Lloyd = National Library service guy
16:44:14 <marisa> lloyd rasmussen
16:44:54 <BenSchroeter> ivan: book level duration is more like general advisory information, not necessarily used by user agent for processing.
16:45:23 <BenSchroeter> ...if this is the case, then requiring it to be present sounds like a step too far. should have/nice to have
16:46:06 <bigbluehat> q+
16:46:11 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
16:46:14 <BenSchroeter> ... we have the duration set for an audio or video file. is it reuired to provide that info as part of the resource description, or will reading system also ignore that?
16:46:27 <bigbluehat> https://schema.org/duration
16:46:43 <BenSchroeter> bigbluehat: we use schema.org duration property
16:47:36 <BenSchroeter> ... what is the point on insisting or not insisting... is it a requirement for reading systems? what is the use case we are trying to solve for?
16:48:26 <duga> q+
16:48:34 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: top level duration is useful for user experience, e.g. product detail page. most commonly used on reading system side to break down chapters for example.
16:48:36 <wendyreid> ack duga
16:49:16 <BenSchroeter> duga: we won't use resource level durations but will pre-process all the audio to determine. a web only reading system may not have this capability.
16:50:05 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: maybe the metadata is not used, but it can be provided in case the reading system can make use of it
16:50:45 <Avneesh> +1 to move to WP
16:51:00 <bigbluehat> q+
16:51:04 <BenSchroeter> ...should we move this to WP since it is not necessarily specific to audiobooks?
16:51:15 <wendyreid> Resolution: Add the duration property to web publications
16:51:15 <BenSchroeter> ivan: formal resolution?
16:51:33 <bigbluehat> ack bigbluehat
16:51:38 <BenSchroeter> bigbluehat: issue 420 - are we moving the requirement?
16:51:58 <BenSchroeter> ivan: the term definition should be generic for WP, then we'll discuss 420
16:52:11 <ivan> +1
16:52:13 <garth> +1
16:52:16 <timCole> +1
16:52:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:52:19 <laurent_> +1
16:52:24 <George> +1q+
16:52:24 <franco> +1
16:52:25 <BenSchroeter> any opposition to the proposal to move to WP?
16:52:26 <BenSchroeter> vote
16:52:28 <BenSchroeter> +1
16:52:32 <George> q+
16:52:34 <duga> +1
16:52:40 <wendyreid> ack George
16:52:41 <Avneesh> +1
16:52:47 <ivan> resolved: Add the duration property to web publications
16:53:25 <BenSchroeter> george: ivan mentioned attribute about total duration - when a publication is time based media, then the total time would be very useful and I would examine it before downloading an audiobook
16:53:43 <bigbluehat> q+ to quickly mention https://schema.org/timeRequired
16:53:43 <josh> +1
16:53:47 <BenSchroeter> ...like number of pages of a book
16:54:37 <BenSchroeter> josh: duration only allowed on audio books and media, but at the top level for creative works: time required (schema.org)
16:54:53 <wendyreid> s/josh/bigbluehat/
16:55:02 <BenSchroeter> ...estimated time to consume
16:55:27 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
16:55:27 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to quickly mention https://schema.org/timeRequired
16:55:30 <BenSchroeter> ivan: sounds like a great match
16:55:44 <bigbluehat> schema.org/timeRequired = "Approximate or typical time it takes to work with or through this learning resource for the typical intended target audience, e.g. 'P30M', 'P1H25M'."
16:56:03 <ivan> q+
16:56:08 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: interesting alternative. must think on it.
16:56:11 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:57:04 <BenSchroeter> ivan: maybe we could in the WP document we make an explicit reference to time required at the top level and see if we can live with that, and keep the precise resource durations separate
16:57:54 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to distinguishing between timeRequired and duration
16:57:56 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: I will add to 420
16:58:00 <George> Approximate reading time
16:58:13 <wendyreid> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-TB-_KCg97smmjcsbIVpi728qduOwESr3Og91-2Gtd4/edit?usp=sharing
16:58:16 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid: face to face coming up
16:58:32 <ivan> topic: misc
16:58:44 <BenSchroeter> ... put your name on the list if attending, also dinner list and agenda items. last chance.
16:59:12 <BenSchroeter> wendyreid:  and dietary requirements too please
16:59:56 <BenSchroeter> Meeting adjourned
16:59:59 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/04/08-pwg-minutes.html ivan