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15:19:33 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:19:33 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
15:19:33 <ivan> Chair: luc
15:19:33 <ivan> Date: 2019-03-26
15:19:33 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2019Mar/0029.html
15:19:33 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-03-26: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2019Mar/0029.html
15:19:34 <ivan> Regrets+ laurent
15:55:50 <jeff_> jeff_ has joined #pbg
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15:59:47 <wendyreid> present+
15:59:55 <ivan> present+
15:59:56 <tzviya> present+
16:00:05 <laudrain> present+
16:01:30 <Rachel> present+
16:01:43 <Karen> present+ Karen
16:02:11 <dauwhe> present+
16:02:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbg
16:02:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
16:02:47 <jeff_> present+
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16:03:27 <ivan> present+ julie_blair
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16:03:58 <ivan> present+ jonathan
16:04:05 <rkwright> present+ rkwright
16:04:11 <julieblair> present+
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16:04:17 <liisamk> present+ liisamk
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16:04:51 <Dan_Sanicola> present+
16:05:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: Any new members?
16:05:32 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pbg
16:05:52 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc listed six new members; any present?
16:06:10 <Avneesh> present+
16:06:16 <Jonathan_Greenberg> Sure, I can say something
16:06:21 <ivan> scribenick: Bill_Kasdorf
16:07:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> Jonathan_Greenberg: NYU libraries happy to join and hopes to voice the concerns of academic publishing
16:07:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> Topic: updates
16:08:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: Please send events info to the list for addition to the Events Calendar
16:08:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . DPUB Summit in Paris in June--large community from Europe and Asia
16:08:56 <laudrain> https://www.edrlab.org/events/dpub-summit-2019/
16:09:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... program is in development and looking good
16:09:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... looking for sponsors!
16:09:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Paris is lovely in June; book hotels soon
16:09:48 <laudrain> q?
16:10:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... PBG meeting at TPAC on Thurs Sept 19
16:10:43 <laudrain> q?
16:10:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... programmed by Keio and others
16:10:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... will be short; this is the only time that key people are available
16:11:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> Daihei: It will be a PBG members meeting, but can involve others.
16:11:31 <ivan> q+
16:11:46 <laudrain> ack ivan
16:11:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Schedule is based on availability of Prof. ???
16:11:58 <tzviya> s/???/Jun Murai
16:12:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ivan: Thursday morning right before lunch
16:12:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: Send ideas for subject for discussion to the list
16:13:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Good opportunity for Japanese issues to be discussed and for others to be aware of them
16:13:14 <jeff_> q+ to ask about the scope of the meeting.
16:13:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... The chairs will be planning a specific agenda
16:13:25 <laudrain> ack jeff
16:13:25 <Zakim> jeff_, you wanted to ask about the scope of the meeting.
16:13:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> Jeff: wondering about the scope of the meeting
16:13:55 <George> George has joined #pbg
16:14:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Will a larger role for the PBG in advocacy and enlarging the group part of the scope?
16:14:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: Yes, this will be a good opportunity for that high-level discussion.
16:14:38 <George> present+ George
16:15:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... we really need to be talking about the vision for the PBG
16:15:36 <tzviya> q+
16:15:38 <laudrain> q?
16:15:39 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:15:39 <Zakim> Present: wendyreid, ivan, tzviya, laudrain, Rachel, Karen, dauwhe, Bill_Kasdorf, jeff_, julie_blair, jonathan, rkwright, julieblair, liisamk, Dan_Sanicola, Avneesh, George
16:15:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see George, Avneesh, Dan_Sanicola, liisamk, julieblair, rkwright, Jonathan_Greenberg, Bill_Kasdorf, Rachel, Karen, laudrain, jeff_, RRSAgent, Zakim, Daihei, ivan, tzviya,
16:15:43 <Zakim> ... dauwhe, wendyreid, dmitry, bigbluehat
16:16:49 <ivan> Topic: epubcheck
16:17:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> Topic: EPUBCheck 4.2.0 moving ahead and is on time
16:17:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Available now and tests EPUB 3.2
16:17:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We really need testing on a broad range of files.
16:17:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Kobo and others are testing; we're looking for feedback asap.
16:18:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We hope to release the final version in mid-April.
16:18:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Please check with your vendors and partners to test EPUBCheck 4.2. We need the whole community involved to make sure it's working well.
16:19:16 <Karen> scribenick: Karen
16:19:16 <laudrain> q?
16:19:31 <Karen> Bill_Kasdorf: The request went out to all members of the external coordination task force
16:19:33 <laudrain> thanks Karen
16:19:36 <Karen> ...I have heard back from Daihei
16:19:41 <Karen> ...who is doing excellent work in Japan
16:19:46 <Karen> ...and I as a member of TF
16:19:52 <Karen> ...have other organizations I reached out to
16:20:00 <Karen> ...Idealliance is going to send word out
16:20:07 <Karen> ...David Steinhard got back to me
16:20:13 <Karen> ...NISO going to put in their newsletter
16:20:28 <Karen> ...those are some communities adjacent to our core users, but people who are interested in EPUB
16:20:37 <Karen> scribenick: Bill_Kasdorf
16:21:27 <tzviya> q-
16:21:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: We are postponing the final release of 3.2 until this testing is complete
16:21:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:22:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... So far we are hearing good news about the initial testing.
16:22:26 <Karen> Bill_Kasdorf: The comments above were about fundraising
16:22:46 <laudrain> ack bill
16:22:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: Please reach out to candidates to contribute to the fundraising!
16:22:52 <Avneesh> q+
16:22:54 <dauwhe> q+
16:23:00 <laudrain> ack Avneesh
16:23:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> Avneesh: EPUB 3.2 release will require some preparation from the PBG before the mid-April release
16:23:27 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
16:23:42 <liisamk> +1 to testing the release candidate
16:23:57 <wendyreid> q+
16:23:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> dauwhe: I want to stress the importance of testing the release candidate. I found EPUB 3.2s in our backlist with lots of problems.
16:24:23 <tzviya> s/EPUB 3.2/EPUB 2
16:24:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Please test your company's files so you don't run into problems.
16:25:26 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: We want people to move to EPUB 3 so it's good news that the problems are mainly with EPUB 2s!
16:26:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Content in 3.2 is much better aligned with the Web in general.
16:26:33 <tzviya> q?
16:26:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> Topic: Synchronizing communication about EPUB 3.2 and EPUBCheck 4.2.
16:27:09 <laudrain> ack wendyreid
16:27:13 <dauwhe> q+
16:27:26 <wendyreid> https://github.com/wareid/EPUB3-tests/tree/master/EPUBCheck%20Testing%20Tools
16:27:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> wendyreid: I created a tool for EPUBCheck testing. It's a simple script that will test a whole folder full of files. Here's the link.
16:27:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Handy if you want to test a lot of files at one time.
16:28:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> Daihei: Can we share the link?
16:28:11 <julieblair> +1 wendy - thank you
16:28:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> wendyreid: Sure!
16:28:30 <laudrain> q?
16:28:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: What about testimonials?
16:28:41 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
16:28:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> dauwhe: Two parts. Testimonials are mainly a communication and marketing thing.
16:29:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... My first concern is to get commitments from distributors and retailers to accept EPUB 3.2 and use EPUBCheck 4.2.
16:29:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We need to make sure we're actually able to use these.
16:29:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... That's not the same thing as marketing language for a testimonial; it's an actual commitment.
16:30:08 <laudrain> q?
16:30:11 <ivan> q+
16:30:25 <laudrain> ack ivan
16:30:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> ivan: Agreed that this is very important. Do we have contacts with all the main distributors to get them to speak up?
16:31:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... This is a much smaller number than the number of publishers.
16:31:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... I don't have the contacts but PBG members probably do.
16:31:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: Of course there are some retailers as members of the PBG.
16:32:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> ivan: Even if we can't get a commitment, which may be hard to get, positive comments are still valuable from them.
16:32:47 <laudrain> q?
16:32:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: Remember 3.0.1 is still relevant.
16:32:51 <George> q+
16:33:11 <laudrain> ack George
16:33:26 <Bill_Kasdorf> George: What would we ideally want a distributor to do? Incorporate the checker into their ingestion and send back nonconforming titles?
16:33:29 <dauwhe> q+
16:33:36 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
16:33:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... What level of warning would be appropriate?
16:33:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> dauwhe: We're not really asking them to change anything other than employing EPUBCheck 4.2.
16:34:08 <laudrain> q+
16:34:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Most publishers will reject EPUBs that throw errors. Some are more tolerant than others.
16:34:24 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We're not asking them to change their policies, just to be up to date.
16:34:47 <rkwright> q+
16:34:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... One of the motivations with 3.2 was the problems around deprecations
16:35:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: The fact that 4.2 is stable, doesn't crash, doesn't report problematic results, is important. We need to be sure it works well!
16:36:22 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We had real professionals doing the development; but it's a big complex piece of software, so it has to be tested.
16:37:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... That's why it has to be tested against a large number of files. We need to smoke out problems that only occur on some files.
16:37:12 <laudrain> ack laudrain
16:37:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> George: It should be run everywhere there's a handoff in the supply chain
16:38:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: It's not production software.
16:38:16 <laudrain> ack rkwright
16:38:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> rkwright: I understand that Apple is using a very old version. Is there any initiative to approach them specifically to update?
16:38:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: I recall this being discussed in the recent Steering Committee meeting
16:39:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: Tzviya, we don't hear you, please put comments in the IRC
16:39:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> Liisa: It was me; it was anecdotal; I have no real information;
16:40:45 <Karen> q+
16:40:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: Tzviya points out that a11y metadata is not being rejected by Apple
16:40:59 <laudrain> ack Karen
16:41:01 <Karen> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/Testimonial/
16:41:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> Karen: Back to testimonials. We're suggesting that we create a page similar to the one I just put in a link for.
16:41:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Then create a way to rotate the testimonials on the publishing landing page.
16:41:43 <Karen> https://www.w3.org/publishing/
16:41:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Right now there are old testimonials there.
16:42:26 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... I will check with Coralie to set up an easy workflow. Who in the PBG?
16:42:37 <ivan> q+
16:42:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: Let's discuss offline
16:42:44 <laudrain> ack ivan
16:43:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> ivan: The testimonial opportunity is open to all W3C members, not just PBG members
16:43:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> Topic: Pop-Ups
16:43:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> Liisa: I haven't had a chance to make much progress. Will do for next call.
16:44:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> Topic: Future discussion topics
16:44:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: We have started a spreadsheet to collect topic suggestions
16:44:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... This is high level, business oriented, not technical.
16:45:08 <ivan> -> link to the spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kq5zOMzOxvHkM8yAgoqao0M0-z5FBzqtWWoO9qLS8PM/edit#gid=0
16:45:09 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kq5zOMzOxvHkM8yAgoqao0M0-z5FBzqtWWoO9qLS8PM/edit#gid=0
16:45:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Please go to the spreadsheet and let us know if these are of interest, and any other ideas you'd like to add.
16:46:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Getting from EPUB 2 to EPUB 3 is still a huge challenge.
16:46:32 <jeff_> q+
16:46:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... How would a reader be aware of the existence of an updated file? This is another big issue.
16:47:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We hope backlist will be upgraded, not just frontlist going to 3.2.
16:47:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... No need for new ISBN, it's not a new edition, it's just a technical update of the product.
16:47:35 <laudrain> q?
16:47:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... How do we let readers know that a new version is available?
16:47:47 <laudrain> ack jeff_
16:48:05 <liisamk> q+
16:48:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> jeff: What's the process for adding to the spreadsheet? Can anybody edit it or do suggestions have to be vetted?
16:48:12 <laudrain> ack liisamk
16:48:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> Liisa: More is better. Everybody should put ideas there. Then we'll sort out priorities.
16:48:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Also put your name and +1 on existing suggestions you agree with.
16:48:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> dauwhe: Or -1
16:49:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: Some of these may be relevant for the PBG meeting at TPAC.
16:49:22 <laudrain> q?
16:50:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> Daihei: Comment on Asian call about epubtype from Makoto. He intended to join this call to discuss it.
16:51:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Any comments on this, please let us know.
16:51:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: We should encourage Makoto to add that to the spreadsheet.
16:51:32 <dauwhe> q+
16:51:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We can discuss that on the next call.
16:51:41 <ivan> q+
16:51:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> Daihei: I will coordinate with Makoto.
16:52:09 <dauwhe> q?
16:52:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: Do we need to do a survey?
16:52:26 <laudrain> q?
16:52:33 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
16:52:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> dauwhe: There is an open issue on epubtype in the CG repo. We are adding explanatory language to the spec: what it's for and what it's not for.
16:53:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: It's not just a technical issue.
16:53:19 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/publ-epub-revision/issues/1241
16:53:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Thanks for the link to that issue.
16:53:32 <tzviya> also an epubcheck issue https://github.com/w3c/epubcheck/issues/1022
16:53:44 <laudrain> q?
16:53:54 <laudrain> ack ivan
16:54:32 <laudrain> q+
16:54:38 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/epubcheck/issues/986
16:55:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> Daihei: I will encourage Makoto to put his comments in the issue--everybody should do that
16:55:37 <laudrain> ack laudrain
16:55:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: AOB?
16:56:15 <Daihei> q+
16:56:21 <jeff_> q+
16:56:23 <laudrain> ack Daihei
16:57:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> Daihei: Last Asian meeting was a good discussion. But the only US participant was Karen. We would really appreciate more US people to join in the next PBG call.
16:57:34 <laudrain> ack jeff_
16:58:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> jeff: I'm at IETF this week, there will be a packaging proposal discussion. [Did I get that right?]
16:58:30 <George> q+
16:58:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Feedback welcome. The meeting is 3:00 CET / 10:00 am EDT.
16:58:38 <laudrain> ack George
16:58:50 <ivan> s/\[Did I get that right?\]//
16:59:00 <laudrain> q+
16:59:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> George: We've started an EPUB in Higher Ed WG in the disability space in the US--35 people participating. Webinar series starting up with 11 webinars about EPUB, readers, ACE, reading systems, etc. focusing on AT. Starting April 16, targeting DSO offices (3,000+).
17:00:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> Luc: EU copyright issues are a big deal, happening now. Also accessibility issues.
17:00:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... ISO work in a11y happening in Milan.
17:01:30 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/26-pbg-minutes.html ivan
17:01:30 <ivan> zakim, bye
17:01:30 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
17:01:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:01:30 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, ivan, tzviya, laudrain, Rachel, Karen, dauwhe, Bill_Kasdorf, jeff_, julie_blair, jonathan, rkwright, julieblair,
17:01:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg