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15:40:06 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:40:06 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
15:40:06 <ivan> Date: 2019-03-25
15:40:06 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2019Mar/0027.html
15:40:06 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-03-25: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2019Mar/0027.html
15:40:07 <ivan> Regrets+ Garth, josh, geoff, rdeltour
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15:57:23 <ivan> present+ george
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15:58:04 <ivan> present+ wendy
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15:58:25 <ivan> present+ dauwhe
15:58:35 <George> present+ George
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16:02:38 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2019/2019-03-18-pwg
16:02:54 <ivan> resolved: minutes of last week approved
16:02:55 <mgarrish> present+
16:02:56 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Lets get going.  First - minutes from last week.  Wendy ran a very efficient meeting.  Minutes approved.
16:03:25 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #pwg
16:03:30 <ivan> topic: Implementations and UCR
16:03:37 <CharlesL> present+
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16:03:50 <NickRuffilo> ...: We had a discussion about use cases - Franco and I had a prep session to talk about what we are looking for.  Last time we went a bit off the rails.  What we're looking for here is not for implementors to tell us specifics, but we're looking for a...
16:03:50 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/pwp-ucr/
16:03:51 <mateus> present+
16:04:16 <NickRuffilo> ... discussion about the UCR.  We need some discussion about what happens when a user encounters a scenario in a specific implementation.  Franco will now go into a bit more detail.
16:04:32 <NickRuffilo> ... we have a few implementors, but anyone can speak. We're talking about implementations and user scenarios.
16:04:56 <bigbluehat> present+
16:05:05 <NickRuffilo> Franco: Lets start with #86 - I think as Tzviya said, Josh and I will be adding to the items in the UCR, but we want input from user agents.  It can be email or opening issues in github.
16:05:23 <tzviya> Mr. Oayia, a classroom teacher, says, “turn to page 137 of your textbook.” Regardless of layout and font size, students reading digital editions need to find the same location in the textbook as one another and as students reading the print edition.
16:05:45 <NickRuffilo> ... Starting with 86 - the use case is "... a classroom teacher says to turn to page 85...  All users, despite font size, etc, need to be able to get to that specific location..."  This is about page numbers and how they are displayed/located.
16:05:53 <laurent_> q+
16:05:58 <tzviya> ack laurent_
16:05:59 <NickRuffilo> ... we need a rough description of how a user agent should handle this.
16:06:26 <ivan> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/pwp-ucr/#uc_movement_page_numbers
16:06:47 <NickRuffilo> Laurent: The readium implementation we're doing is: If there is a page list inside the epub (or web publications).  Page list is a list of references of inner locations in a book.  If there is such a list, specifically entered by the publisher, we use it to create a goto feature.
16:07:27 <NickRuffilo> ... if there is none, we make some approximations.  Each segment of 1024 character is considered a pseudopage.  So if someone says "goto page X" we give them the responding segment.  It's a fallback of the explicit pagelist.
16:07:29 <rkwright> 1024, known as the RIC_WRIGHT_ADOBE_CONSTANT
16:07:53 <CharlesL> q+
16:07:55 <NickRuffilo> ... As far as presentation.  With readium it's moved to the json implementation.
16:08:00 <tzviya> ack CharlesL
16:08:24 <NickRuffilo> Charles: I was wondering about that.  What if there is no page list, but there are page markers inside the chapters.  But they didn't set up a page list.  Does that ever occur?
16:08:40 <NickRuffilo> Laurent: The pages noted inside the document are not taken into account - at least not in the readium implementation.
16:09:01 <ivan> q+
16:09:03 <laudrain> q+
16:09:04 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:09:05 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya:  the google play group and kobo group are not here to offer comments/feedback today.
16:09:37 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: Question - Laurent, what we have today in the draft, as information, does it allow you to reproduce what we need?
16:09:43 <tzviya> s/kobo group/Jeff from Kobo
16:10:02 <NickRuffilo> Laurent: With the HTML representation of the TOC - if there is a pagelist in HTML that can be added.  But I fear there is none in the specification.
16:10:10 <Avneesh> q+
16:10:11 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: We did have something about a pagelist.  But we need to flag this.
16:10:14 <tzviya> ack laudrain
16:10:45 <ivan> q+
16:11:00 <NickRuffilo> Luc: To answer Charles - there is a need to have some markup in the content where the page breaks in the existing paper.  If there is no page list, whatever the implementation and language is used, it means there is some burden and calculations that needs to be used by the reading system.  It's probably too expansive...
16:11:21 <laurent_> q+
16:11:22 <wendyreid> s/expansive/expensive/
16:11:28 <laurent_> q-
16:11:48 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
16:11:52 <NickRuffilo> ... there should be a list of pages somewhere in the publication.  This pagelist, in the language used to express it, will be used by the user agent.  So it places some burden on the authors doing the web publication, but in terms of accessibility, diversity, support, it works for ebooks and paper.
16:11:53 <tzviya> note https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#page-list
16:12:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pwg
16:12:26 <laurent_> 3.6 in the draft covers pagelist in fact
16:12:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
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16:12:50 <NickRuffilo> Avneesh: Right now the w3c rec says to put the page-list in the publication.  This is what is there.  How the UI should do it - a goto page functionality works.  Another way is to have a widget that has a list of page - so you have a TOC which is a hierarchy, but you could have a list of pages or targets and let the user go there...
16:13:35 <wendyreid> +1 Avneesh
16:13:38 <NickRuffilo> ... if there is no page list, and there are only page breaks - what should we do?  My experience and why epub has multiple content documents is to reduce the load on a reading system to read one-page-at-a-time.  If there are only page breaks, the whole reading system would need to parse the whole document - so having a page-list is the most practical.
16:13:42 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:13:47 <ivan> https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#page-list
16:14:11 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: There is a page-list as an answer to Laurent.  Small note to Matt - the text does not explicitly say that the page-list should use the same format as the TOC.
16:15:05 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: One issue that has not come up in this discussion - for people using page numbering with read-aloud technologies, people have expressed interest in the ability to turn page announcements on and off.
16:15:18 <NickRuffilo> ... I did not hear discussions of that, and it's important to note.
16:15:22 <NickRuffilo> q+
16:15:24 <rkwright> q+
16:15:27 <tzviya> ack NickRuffilo
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16:15:53 <George> q+
16:16:50 <tzviya> ack rkwright
16:17:00 <laudrain> +1 to Nick
16:17:34 <NickRuffilo> Rick: I'm concerned about telling publishers how the workflow needs to be, but the page-list seems a good idea.  If we can't find the pagelist, we don't really scan, so we just basically use the 1024 and create a synthetic page list.
16:17:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to it being a best practice
16:18:01 <tzviya> ack George
16:18:02 <NickRuffilo> ... if there are issues already logged, can someone put that in the IRC
16:18:42 <NickRuffilo> George: A couple items.  Page break always occurs at the top of the page, otherwise you're effectively taken to the next page.  Most people think of normal numbers (numerals) but you could have roman numeral appendixes, or GL123, etc...
16:19:29 <NickRuffilo> ... so it's not always numbers, it may need to be a text string to pattern match against.  The page-list in the TOC could specify if it's a 1, IV, or GL20, you could see that and be taken directly to that spot.  Those seem to be the types of things that work.  Goto page is terrific feature to have...
16:19:45 <NickRuffilo> ... that gives you 2 ways.  Either through the pagelist, but it takes you to the same spot.
16:19:55 <laurent_> see http://kb.daisy.org/publishing/docs/navigation/pagelist.html
16:20:25 <CharlesL> q+
16:20:48 <ivan> present+ duga
16:20:49 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: We're trying to talk about implementations, not best practices.  We need to talk about the user experience.  We will need people to open issues and tell us issues.  If someone wants to log an issue from the discussion...
16:20:52 <tzviya> ack CharlesL
16:20:56 <CharlesL> role="doc-pagebreak"
16:21:15 <Avneesh> q+
16:21:17 <NickRuffilo> Charles: Since we have the dpub-aria role doc-pagebreak, would we want to do some best practices on escapability - so that can be user preference turned on/off?
16:21:26 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: I imagine, but that's not the topic
16:21:26 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
16:21:27 <NickRuffilo> q+
16:21:38 <NickRuffilo> Avneesh: I can open an issue describing the behavior...
16:21:38 <tzviya> ack NickRuffilo
16:22:50 <dauwhe> q+
16:22:54 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:23:00 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: we're trying to keep "implement as you wish" from being too vague so they know how to do this...
16:23:44 <NickRuffilo> Dave: Things like this that involve navigation, we want to be clear about our expectations.  This helps the reading system, and interoperability.  If you ask a user agent to navigate to 137 - do they need to repaginate so that the marker is at the top of the viewport?
16:24:03 <laurent_> about UX/UI related to page break, see https://github.com/readium/readium-desktop/issues/20
16:24:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:24:33 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: We have implementors in the real world who have done this - so we need to be explicit about what we mean about "go to a page."  We have experience, but when we talk to people who work on browsers, they don't know what we mean.  So instead of saying "use this in the real world" we have detail.
16:24:41 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:25:05 <NickRuffilo> Bill: This is a print-equivalent page-break, not a dynamic page-break.
16:25:12 <franco> * UC 98: When reading a book in the sun, Mia adjusts the background color to allow for a stronger contrast so that she can see the text.
16:25:20 <ivan> Suptopic: UC 98
16:25:39 <ivan> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/pwp-ucr/#uc_p13n_contrast
16:25:46 <dauwhe> q+
16:25:47 <NickRuffilo> Franco: OK - the next use case.  #98.  Questions around this - how would you access a UI like this.  What would the user-agent do with this.
16:25:50 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:26:08 <ivan> +1 to dauwhe
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16:26:14 <duga> q+
16:26:20 <NickRuffilo> Dave: This appears to be a pure web question.  This applies to any text on any screen anywhere.  Is there something we need to do differently that what is happening on the web now?
16:26:21 <tzviya> ack duga
16:26:23 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: Is it happening?
16:27:06 <NickRuffilo> Brady: Yes...  It is a little different for publications because you tend to read them for a longer amount of time.  Yes it is a real problem for the web - but you're must more likely to stare at the same publication for 30 minutes, but not a web page...
16:27:22 <wendyreid> q+
16:27:26 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
16:27:28 <NickRuffilo> ... there are questions as to how do you control the contrast of a web page.  These are hard things to do in CSS.
16:27:52 <tzviya> q+
16:28:05 <ivan> q+
16:28:18 <NickRuffilo> Wendy: Piggybacking on what Brady said - the way reading systems do it is awkward CSS overrides.  If a default text color has an opacity on it, even if you swap the contrast, the opacity or background color can often fall apart.  As brady often mentioned, I've seen good extensions, but nothing native.
16:28:24 <tzviya> ack tzviya
16:28:31 <NickRuffilo> ... It would be an interesting problem to tackle.
16:28:44 <dauwhe> q+
16:29:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> contrast is also a fundamental accessibility issue
16:29:07 <rkwright> +1 tzviya
16:29:11 <wendyreid> +1
16:29:13 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:29:16 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: I'd like to avoid a publications only solution.  There is nothing about this unique to publications.  There is a need and much more of an explanation for publishing...  We need to do a good job of explaining how it relates to CSS...
16:29:17 <ivan> q_
16:29:20 <ivan> q-
16:29:21 <duga> q+
16:30:01 <tzviya> ack duga
16:30:06 <tzviya> q+ duga
16:30:12 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:30:18 <tzviya> ack duga
16:30:19 <NickRuffilo> Dave: The CSS working group has been talking about this thing, I think.  I also think this is an area where we start talking about the underlying OS.  There are high-contrast modes and other items where the OS overrides things.  I'll try to dig up some of the recent CSS work, but it's something people are conscious of.
16:30:58 <NickRuffilo> Brady: I agree with what's been said.   The only political bargaining chip is to mention dark-mode (because it means better battery life).  We want to look at it for the web in general, but we want to interact with a systems dark-mode.  It might spur more action.
16:31:13 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Accessibility is becoming a bit more exciting too, so that bargaining chip exists too..
16:31:52 <NickRuffilo> ... in terms of writing this up in the use case document, the implementation for this is that we implement it the way it's implemented on the web, but we need to write up something that can be brought up to the CSS group.  So what happens builds on what is happening for the rest of the web.
16:32:05 <ivan> q+
16:32:06 <dauwhe> http://www.gwhitworth.com/blog/2017/04/how-to-use-ms-high-contrast/
16:32:14 <ivan> q-
16:32:19 <franco> * UC 40: Moby Dick contains 136 chapters. Each chapter is a separate HTML document, with a logical order for reading them. It should be possible for the publication to inform the user agent that the proper order for consumption of the HTML documents is sequentially, starting by the first chapter.
16:32:27 <ivan> subtopic: UC 40
16:33:07 <NickRuffilo> Franco: UC #40 - (pasted above) So - discussion about reading order.
16:33:10 <ivan> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/pwp-ucr/#uc_reading-order_sequential
16:33:35 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: You allow your files to fall how they may and users randomly access content? (sarcasm)
16:33:44 <laurent_> q+
16:33:48 <tzviya> ack laurent_
16:33:51 <NickRuffilo> ... does anyone have comments on how the reading order is implemented?
16:34:31 <NickRuffilo> Laurent: As a RS, we display the first, and we have a way for a person to go from one screen to the next.  When the user reaches the end of the read-order-item, then we use the next action to go to the start of the next resource.
16:34:49 <NickRuffilo> Laurent: and that works.  Continuous scrolling works a bit more difficulty, but it works.
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16:35:10 <George> q+
16:35:12 <dauwhe> q+
16:35:14 <tzviya> ack George
16:35:57 <NickRuffilo> George: What I have - we have the reading order so the reading system should seamlessly present one chunk then another.  It's difficult to get to the next one.  Without a reading order you have to go back to the TOC then to the next one.  Some have a hotkey, some don't...
16:36:15 <NickRuffilo> ... it should be easy for the user to get to the next sequential item.
16:36:19 <ivan> q+
16:36:24 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:36:26 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: I do not want to put negative examples in, but they are good.
16:36:55 <marisa> q+
16:36:55 <NickRuffilo> Dave: George raises a good question - would we want an implementation (or would it satisfy the spec) if the user has to go back to the TOC to navigate to the next.
16:37:00 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:37:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:37:46 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: Good question, but if we do not talk about the kind of reading system we have talked about so far - but some of the examples we have talked about very nice examples with service workers, then they may not have the seamless switch from one chapter to another.  this is not an unrealistic implementation...
16:38:01 <NickRuffilo> ... it may already exist, and it's not ideal, and it's not advisable, but in some cases this is what will happen.
16:38:14 <tzviya> ack marisa
16:38:16 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Franco - from your perspective we need to document, and note why this is not ideal...
16:38:42 <NickRuffilo> Marisa: One thing this use case makes me think of is searching text.  The RS is in one file, and it wants to search the entire book.  And it shows off why this is important.
16:38:45 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:39:01 <NickRuffilo> Bill: I wanted to point out that lots of reference publications are never consumed...
16:39:17 <duga> I can hear Bill
16:39:21 <duga> And everyone else
16:39:35 <NickRuffilo> Bill... not consumed sequentially
16:39:44 <ivan> present+ bigbluehat
16:40:12 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Consumed sequentially, maybe not, but displayed sequentially, yes.
16:41:13 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: So then we have a question of - do we have content only accessible through a TOC, does it load sequentially, etc...
16:41:19 <George> q+
16:41:22 <tzviya> ack George
16:41:50 <NickRuffilo> George: I don't understand what we want to say.  Is this an implementation suggestion?  Here's the minimum?  Different approaches?
16:41:53 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Yes, exactly
16:42:35 <ivan> Topic: TOC issue
16:42:38 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/376
16:42:49 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: We have only 20 minutes left, so lets move on to the next item.  TOC - I think we may actually be able to close this with Wendy's help.  We have #376.
16:43:35 <NickRuffilo> ... there are numerous comments on this.  I put a proposal as the last comment.  Based on discussions and with many of the people of how TOCs exist in audiobooks.  Wendy - anything to add?
16:43:40 <NickRuffilo> Wendy: That's it...
16:44:05 <tzviya> Proposal: Restricted HTML as described in current draft is the TOC as encoded in Manifest
16:44:57 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: the discussion is mostly about how the TOC is noted in the manifest.  This is about whether - how the algorithm works in the manfiest...
16:45:09 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: I will try - (typing)
16:45:37 <ivan> Proposal: the TOC is encoded using the restricted HTML as defined in the WPUB spec, and that is the only way it can be done
16:46:03 <duga> +1
16:46:05 <ivan> +
16:46:05 <ivan> +1
16:46:06 <tzviya> +1
16:46:08 <rkwright> +1
16:46:10 <wendyreid> +1
16:46:12 <NickRuffilo> +1
16:46:18 <timCole> +1
16:46:19 <bigbluehat> +1
16:46:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:46:27 <laurent_> 0
16:46:44 <laudrain> +1
16:46:47 <dauwhe> +1
16:46:50 <mateus> +1
16:47:07 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Resolved!
16:47:08 <ivan> resolved: the TOC is encoded using the restricted HTML as defined in the WPUB spec, and that is the only way it can be done
16:47:28 <ivan> (Issue can be closed)
16:47:35 <ivan> q+
16:47:39 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:47:51 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: There was another issue related to this -
16:48:10 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Thank you for reminding me.  Matt and I discussed.  Do you recall?
16:48:30 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/378
16:48:36 <NickRuffilo> tzviya: Issue 378
16:49:02 <ivan> q+
16:49:18 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:49:18 <bigbluehat> q+
16:49:20 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: The last comment - how many possible ways do we want the TOC to account for.  I apologize, I didn't add this to the agenda so people may need time to think.
16:49:46 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
16:50:01 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: I plead guilty - I was the one who raised this issue, but looking at all the discussion, I am perfectly fine closing the issue with "no further action" and my question should be deemed as - unnecessary
16:50:38 <NickRuffilo> Benjamin - my question is about document structure - generally related to the TOC and processing and where those should live.  The answer could be "turn in next week."  Is the core piece - the manifest thing - is the datamodel, and how do you get the spec?
16:50:46 <NickRuffilo> ... how do you end up with the data model?
16:51:08 <dauwhe> q+
16:51:11 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:51:13 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: We're going to talk about the overal document structure next week.  As for this - lets bring it back to github and discuss when Matt has a microphone.
16:51:41 <NickRuffilo> Dave: This seems like the classic issue where we're not going to know what needs to happen until we try a bunch of stuff and things go wrong.  It's hard to imagine a bunch of theoretical TOCs.
16:52:01 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: That'll take a bit of time.  The other way around would be to close this to give us piece of mind, and if we hit problems later, take it as we come...
16:52:11 <NickRuffilo> Dave: this is why we have CR and implementation experience.
16:52:48 <NickRuffilo> Matt: What we have right now mimics closely what we have in epub.  Do we need to expand it more?  It has worked well so far.  Maybe we can live with it - it's something we need actual implementation data on...
16:52:59 <ivan> Proposal: close 378 without further action for now
16:53:03 <NickRuffilo> ... it's probably something we can close off until we have something specific to deal with or let it go dormant.
16:53:19 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: I have anecdotal evidence that people want more, but i can put that in the issue.
16:53:40 <ivan> Topic: Tzviya
16:54:07 <NickRuffilo> ... Before we get to the F2F agenda, i want to share some information.  Many know this - I am expecting due at the end of July.  You have 2 chairs to help while I'm gone.  I don't have specific dates for returning
16:54:07 <laurent_> Congrats!
16:54:10 <laudrain> congrats
16:54:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> congratulations, Tzviya!
16:54:18 <Avneesh> Congratulationns
16:54:21 <david_stroup> Congrats!
16:54:25 <ivan> photos! photos!
16:54:47 <ivan> Topic: F2F agenda
16:54:50 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-TB-_KCg97smmjcsbIVpi728qduOwESr3Og91-2Gtd4/edit?usp=sharing
16:55:21 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Moving on to F2F agenda.  One thing we didn't ask originally is dietary restrictions.  If you haven't done that, please do add.  We have not had many requests for specific sessions.
16:55:49 <laudrain> q+
16:55:54 <NickRuffilo> ... We are looking forwards to seeing everyone.  We'll fill up the 2 days of discussion.  Feel free to ask any questions.  We'll be in the Google office in Cambridge and are hoping to hear from you.  Just add it into the document.
16:55:54 <tzviya> ack laudrain
16:56:12 <Avneesh> q+
16:56:12 <NickRuffilo> Luc: Do we figure out a moemnt with the PBG chairs about priorities?
16:56:21 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: you mean a session with the PBG chairs?
16:56:29 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Great topic.
16:56:42 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
16:56:44 <ivan> q+
16:56:53 <NickRuffilo> Avneesh: What about the timeline, it'll also change the agenda.  We should start our milestones from there.
16:56:57 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Good idea...
16:57:05 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:57:43 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: Beyond the timeline, what happens when we are a CR - what becomes implementation or not.  There is a whole collection of issues about how we organize the CR phase which is never too early to think about.
16:58:12 <NickRuffilo> ... the other is - we should have a horizontal reviews and what we do about them.
16:58:21 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: we already have enough topics for the 2 days but we're open to other topics
16:59:11 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: The question to discuss is 'what profile do we want to talk about next' so we know who to bring into the group...
16:59:15 <romain> romain has joined #pwg
16:59:25 <NickRuffilo> ... I'd like to make sure wpub is prepared beyond audiobooks
17:00:08 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Tuesday has been shifted to 8-4 - so that people can take the accella (trian) back
17:00:19 <JunGamo> JunGamo has left #pwg
17:00:24 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/25-pwg-minutes.html ivan
17:00:24 <ivan> zakim, bye
17:00:24 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
17:00:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:00:24 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been ivan, george, tzviya, wendy, wendyreid, dauwhe, NickRuffilo, laurent_, Avneesh, JunGamo, marisa, Teenya, rkwright, franco,
17:00:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg
17:00:27 <Zakim> ... laudrain, mgarrish, CharlesL, mateus, bigbluehat, Bill_Kasdorf, duga