16:00:14 RRSAgent has joined #tt 16:00:14 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/03/14-tt-irc 16:00:16 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:00:16 Zakim has joined #tt 16:00:18 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 16:00:18 Date: 14 March 2019 16:00:49 scribe: nigel 16:00:57 Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/03/14-tt-irc 16:01:15 nigel has changed the topic to: TTWG meeting Thursday 1600 UTC. Agenda for 2019-03-14: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/26 16:01:17 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/26 16:01:29 Present: Nigel, Gary, Pierre 16:01:55 Chair: Nigel 16:02:05 Regrets: Cyril, Thierry, Mike 16:02:15 Topic: This meeting 16:03:12 Present+ Andreas 16:03:23 plh has joined #tt 16:03:24 Present+ Philippe 16:05:26 Nigel: Today we have [iterates through agenda] 16:05:32 Gary: We have something to cover with WebVTT 16:05:35 Nigel: Ok 16:05:46 Present+ Glenn 16:06:33 q+ 16:07:08 Nigel: I think we can cover all the issues today within the time. 16:07:10 ack at 16:07:28 Andreas: Can we cover the f2f meeting at the beginning to make sure we have time? 16:07:34 .. It's one of the most urgent parts. 16:07:53 Nigel: OK I don't mind, if there are no objections. 16:08:21 .. AOB or specific points to make sure we get to? 16:08:26 glenn has joined #tt 16:08:35 group: [no other business] 16:08:53 Topic: September F2F meeting 16:09:11 q+ 16:09:20 Nigel: I made a WBS survey, which was open for 2 weeks, and when it closed I looked at the results and notified the 16:09:23 .. group of the conclusions. 16:09:49 .. Since then a couple of people have commented that they want to reopen the discussion and at least one did not 16:09:53 .. participate in the survey. 16:09:57 ack at 16:10:17 Andreas: To start, I thought the survey was more an indicator of the preference of the members, not a decision tool. 16:10:33 .. We need to decide what we want to achieve with this meeting and who is available and should attend. 16:10:43 .. Also note who participated in the survey. 16:10:53 .. 3 Editors have not voted, Gary, Pierre and Cyril. 16:11:11 .. So this alone is important to know and means we need to discuss it to make sure the Editors are at the meeting. 16:11:25 .. We should have a consensus in the group from the active members who want to participate. 16:11:53 Nigel: Thanks for that. I took it that anyone wanting to participate in the meeting would respond to the survey. 16:12:05 .. I made the decision based on the survey results because they were clear. 16:12:16 .. Is there additional information? 16:12:33 Glenn: I agree with Andreas, I was surprised that you took the survey as the result to make the decision, I think that 16:12:41 .. was not correct. The group should make a decision. 16:12:53 .. Clearly a lot of people have indicated for Amsterdam around IBC. 16:13:11 q+ 16:13:14 -> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34314/2019_September-F2F/results Survey results 16:13:47 Nigel: That's not accurate, see the results. 16:14:08 Pierre: There was an important missing option, which was in Amsterdam concurrent with TPAC. 16:14:21 Philippe: We don't require WGs to attend TPAC or not to conflict with TPAC either. 16:14:24 ack plh 16:14:35 .. It will be seen as poor form to meet concurrently to TPAC on the other side of the planet. 16:14:50 .. We had cases in the past like the WebRTC WG in Shenzhen where some people wanted to meet in California, and 16:15:04 .. others in TPAC. We organised a video link so people could remotely attend the TPAC meeting. 16:15:23 .. I had an email exchange with Pierre off band. For my personal presence it is harder for me to commit to a full 16:15:34 .. f2f meeting at TPAC due to my function compared to a f2f meeting outside of TPAC. 16:15:41 cyril has joined #tt 16:15:43 .. I still would like to have someone from W3S from the meeting. 16:15:55 q+ 16:15:58 RRSAgent, pointer 16:15:58 See https://www.w3.org/2019/03/14-tt-irc#T16-15-58 16:16:03 .. If it is concurrent with TPAC but not at TPAC we will not have any W3S present. 16:16:17 Pierre: The other missing option for the record was right after TPAC, in Europe. 16:16:39 Nigel: I didn't include those two options because I thought we had already clearly ruled them out during discussions. 16:16:50 Pierre: If that's the case my apologies, I don't recall that discussion. 16:17:18 Andreas: I agree with Philippe that TPAC is extremely important and we would like to meet there if possible. 16:17:36 .. It's an unfortunate coincidence with other meetings. 16:17:57 .. Something to bear in mind is we are in discussion with the EBU group about taking on some functionality. 16:18:09 .. In Geneva we planned a joint meeting, which can only happen in Europe, not in Japan. 16:18:24 .. Nearly all the EBU group participants are at IBC so this would be an important point to make it in Europe. 16:18:43 .. W3S should be there of course. Is Thierry planning to go to Fukuoka? 16:18:48 Philippe: Yes, both of us. 16:19:22 Andreas: If we want to do it in Europe it would be good to do it at the same time as TPAC because we could schedule 16:19:38 .. calls or for people e.g. Philippe to join remotely from TPAC. 16:20:10 Philippe: Yes, I give my priorities to disfunctional WGs and that doesn't include you guys! 16:20:31 .. We can have a video link if needed. 16:20:47 .. As Pierre noted, Eric Carlson did answer the survey, and we have other media related issues at TPAC for sure so I'm 16:20:54 .. guessing he will attend TPAC. 16:21:09 Pierre: As far as I can tell he is the one individual who would attend at TPAC but not elsewhere. 16:21:46 we should probably ask if Apple has representative at IBC at that time that could participate 16:21:50 q+ 16:22:48 Nigel: As a matter of priority I think we need to consider the input of WG members over non-members. 16:23:00 Philippe: s/WG member/active WG member 16:23:48 ack atai 16:24:22 Nigel: The survey is a mixed picture. 16:24:31 q+ 16:24:40 Pierre: Meeting during Fukuoka in Europe is another option, or just after. 16:24:41 ack at 16:25:20 Andreas: I would propose meeting in Amsterdam on 18th and 19th September and putting that to the group. 16:25:55 .. Of course I don't want to downplay anyone's role and votes. 16:26:10 .. We need to look at the picture more closely and make a good decision which at the moment is at Amsterdam. 16:26:29 Glenn: Our last two meetings have been in Europe, at EBU in January and TPAC in France. 16:28:01 Nigel: I would not be able to attend in Amsterdam during TPAC. 16:28:14 Glenn: It's better to go with Fukuoka and go with the video link for European attendees. 16:28:24 Glenn: My preference would be Fukuoka. 16:28:32 .. I don't attend IBC anymore so that's not an issue for me. 16:28:45 Pierre: We also ought to consider not having a meeting around that time at all, but meeting at some other time 16:28:50 .. when there are agenda items. 16:29:10 .. For instance, it would be easier for me to justify say flying to London or driving to San Jose for a TTWG meeting than 16:29:15 .. flying to Fukuoka for 2 days. 16:29:32 Glenn: I think there's enough impetus on moving forward to WebVTT and Gary's and Eric's work that it would be worth 16:29:50 .. having a meeting in Fukuoka. We can make progress on a module for 360 if Vladimir is there also. I still think it is 16:29:55 .. worth considering a meeting there. 16:30:09 Pierre: Andreas is a proponent of 360 and it sounds like he will not be in Fukuoka. 16:30:12 Glenn: Video link? 16:30:17 cyril has joined #tt 16:30:36 Pierre: What time though? If we're trying to schedule an inconvenient meeting then it's not practical, so maybe 16:30:55 .. schedule a different meeting. 16:31:12 Philippe: We could schedule a half day afternoon meeting in Fukuoka, in the morning in Europe. 16:31:26 Andreas: Bringing up the EBU thing I think we will have items for 2 days. 16:31:40 .. If I understood our decisions in Geneva we plan to have something ready by the end of the year. 16:32:48 Nigel: The timing of TPAC is quite good for making late decisions in our process. 16:33:05 what about limiting the scope of the meeting at TPAC to WebVTT and reschedule the TTML-part to another time/another location? 16:33:06 Philippe: We could have a long video conference late in August. 16:33:25 Nigel: See Cyril's input remotely - that is possible. 16:33:31 Philippe: Yes assuming WebVTT stays in the Charter. 16:33:46 Pierre: To the proposal from Philippe, if there's a topic that would benefit from being at TPAC because of links with 16:33:57 .. other groups, that would be a 4 hour meeting probably, which could be done remotely. 16:34:18 if there is no WebVTT discussion, there is no need to have a meeting at TPAC 16:34:57 Glenn: We could do two afternoons on TTML in Fukuoka. 16:35:06 Pierre: We're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole 16:35:08 Nigel: +1 16:35:18 Glenn: A video link to Europe in the afternoon in Japan might work. 16:35:29 q+ 16:35:38 Pierre: Why not let the work items drive the meeting. Put coordination topics on the agenda for Fukuoka and otherwise 16:35:49 .. schedule a meeting as needed? Just throwing ideas. 16:35:52 ack a 16:36:08 Andreas: I see no strong reasons to have the meeting in Fukuoka because a lot of people will not travel there, whereas 16:36:22 .. in Amsterdam a lot of people would join. If both options are not good I would go with the idea of trying another 16:36:39 .. face to face slot and meeting then. It's really important to have people in the same room together to make progress. 16:36:58 q+ 16:37:52 Nigel: I need to close this discussion because of time, and synthesise some options based on the discussion. This 16:37:55 .. is complex! 16:38:07 .. We don't have a clear front runner right now. 16:38:19 Topic: Draft liaisons with MPEG and VR-IF about 360ยบ subtitle positioning 16:38:34 Nigel: There has been some non-WG reflector emails discussing a liaison text. 16:38:59 Andreas: As proposed I shared a draft with Nigel, Mike, Pierre and Philippe to agree on a draft for a liaison, and 16:39:13 .. Mike volunteered to help with the submission to MPEG, and made some improvements and proposals. 16:39:28 .. He also said there seems to be a deadline for comments which is next week so we need to do something soon. 16:39:48 .. It would be good to submit this liaison letter as soon as possible, I'm not sure what your opinion is Nigel, if you want 16:39:58 .. to redraft it and send it to the reflector? 16:40:37 Nigel: Yes please send the draft to the member-tt reflector. 16:40:44 Andreas: It needs to be submitted early next week. 16:41:30 +1 to Nigel 16:41:59 Nigel: Please do that - I don't think the message is controversial so I would ask for a quick turnaround review and if 16:42:10 .. there are no objections I will ask Mike to submit it on Monday or very early Tuesday. 16:42:47 Philippe: I will take the action to check the liaison, I have an action item with Jeff Jaffe to figure this out. 16:43:06 .. We need to be able to provide the documents. I will figure this out. 16:43:19 Andreas: It is important if we want to send comments to MPEG the group needs access to the documents. 16:43:32 Philippe: Yes, but I need time to figure out how to provide that access. 16:43:42 .. You need those documents by yesterday, I'm guessing? 16:43:47 Andreas: Yes, more or less! 16:44:02 .. The background is some colleagues in VR-IF reviewed the MPEG draft, found inconsistency in how they use IMSC 16:44:13 .. so I'm not sure if it would help if we as a group make a comment. 16:44:35 .. The earlier the better. I asked the VR-IF people to send their comments to Nigel so he could forward them to the reflector. 16:44:47 Nigel: I don't think I've received anything. 16:44:55 Andreas: Hopefully tomorrow. 16:45:30 Philippe: Who wants to see those documents from ISO and cannot see them today? 16:45:42 Nigel: I'm not sure - my suggestion would be to send to member-tt so anyone can see them. 16:46:04 Philippe: I'm trying to figure out how to prioritise this work and do it before the weekend especially if I have to check 16:46:20 .. with legal that publishing on member-tt will not create an ISO mismatch. If that is the case I will send the documents 16:46:24 .. to your inbox Nigel. 16:46:32 Andreas: If that is possible it would be perfect. 16:47:11 Nigel: Okay we have actions - Andreas to send the draft liaison message to member-tt and Philippe to work out how to share the MPEG documents. 16:47:54 Topic: TTML Profile Registry 16:48:09 Nigel: There isn't much time on this today - I added a pull request to the agenda but we maybe should push it to next week. 16:48:44 Glenn: I removed a misleading sentence from the IANA registration text on codecs. 16:48:53 Nigel: My query is if that is really necessary. 16:49:06 Glenn: I don't think we need a full IETF expert evaluation to remove a "for information" statement. 16:49:20 .. We have controlling editorial authority on the registration now so even though Mike suggests we need expert review 16:49:37 .. I think it is up to us to decide when to invoke it. My preference would be to remove it but if people want to leave 16:49:49 .. in something that is misleading I could live with it but it's not preferable. 16:50:08 Nigel: Let's leave that on the table for now and discuss offline. 16:50:12 Topic: WebVTT Implementation Report 16:50:38 Gary: I sent out an update last week. I started working on STYLE block implementation for vtt.js so with Safari's implementation 16:50:45 .. and that then the feature will no longer be at risk. 16:51:01 .. I made a pull request against the repo marking a couple of things at risk so we can move forward with getting those 16:51:19 .. things out as a new CR. Then hopefully we can remove those features, move that to a PR and create a new CR with 16:52:00 .. those features put back in. 16:52:06 Nigel: Can we do that or do we have to go back to WD? 16:52:31 Philippe: You can do it if you can demonstrate wide review and the Director approves. That would need a transition request. 16:52:54 Gary: That part can be done at another meeting. Is the marking things at risk something that everyone is in agreement 16:53:01 .. on, removing those features and moving that version forward? 16:53:15 .. I got a comment from Eric saying he was in agreement with that assuming we put the features back in later. 16:54:05 Nigel: We have a Chairing vacuum here which as ever I'm reluctant to step in to. 16:54:13 .. We need consensus on this and a CfC for publishing a CR. 16:55:14 Philippe: Is there any objection? 16:55:39 Nigel: Our Decision Policy is 2 weeks. The pull request decision policy began when the pull was opened, arguably. 16:56:00 .. We still need a document to review with a proposal to publish as an updated CR. 16:56:13 Gary: I believe the updated snapshot is what we want to publish. 16:56:24 .. We don't need to remove the at risk features yet. 16:56:40 Philippe: I guess we need a separate CfC email sent to the list to start the 2 weeks period. 16:56:56 Nigel: That's what we normally do. 16:57:21 Philippe: The proposal is to update the document as per the pull request. Can we have a link to the document generated 16:57:23 .. by the pull request? 16:57:26 Gary: No 16:57:35 Philippe: We need pr preview enabled. 16:58:14 Nigel: Will you take that offline to send a proposal to the WG Philippe? 16:58:18 Philippe: Yes I will do 16:58:22 Nigel: Thank you 16:58:46 Topic: TTWG Charter 2019 16:59:10 Nigel: Please do review the pull requests on the Charter repo 16:59:11 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/webvtt/90265659a7b01fafba5e464f40ccbf781c6fdaa3/archives/2019-03-06/Overview.html 16:59:30 -> https://github.com/w3c/charter-timed-text/pulls Charter pull requests 17:01:14 Topic: Meeting close 17:01:30 group: [discussion about enabling PR preview on VTT repo] 17:02:11 atai2 has left #tt 17:02:24 Nigel: We're out of time for today, thank you everyone. [adjourns meeting] 17:02:28 rrsagent, make minutes 17:02:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/14-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:09:12 s/The survey is a mixed picture./I don't share that view Philippe. The survey is a mixed picture. 17:13:42 rrsagent, make minutes 17:13:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/14-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:15:44 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 17:15:45 rrsagent, make minutes 17:15:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/14-tt-minutes.html nigel