20:56:49 RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat 20:56:49 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/03/06-dxwgdcat-irc 20:57:07 rrsagent, make logs public 20:57:51 regrets+ Alasdair Gray (ongoing), Erik Mannens (ongoing), Thomas D'Haenens (ongoing), Lars Svensson (ongoing) 20:58:27 chair: alejandra 20:58:39 meeting: Weekly DXWGDCAT 20:58:55 rrsagent, create minutes v2 20:58:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/06-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley 20:59:15 riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwgdcat 20:59:16 Makx has joined #dxwgdcat 20:59:44 present+ 21:00:24 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2019.03.06 21:00:29 present+ 21:00:34 present+ 21:01:08 present+ 21:03:19 regrets+ DaveBrowning 21:03:26 agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2019.03.06 21:05:08 SimonCox has joined #dxwgdcat 21:05:08 proposed: approve minutes https://www.w3.org/2019/02/27-dxwgdcat-minutes 21:05:18 present+ 21:06:12 q? 21:06:39 Topic: Approve minutes from last meetings: https://www.w3.org/2019/02/27-dxwgdcat-minutes 21:06:55 +1 21:06:58 +1 21:07:02 +1 21:07:07 +1 21:07:09 0 (not there) 21:07:20 resolved: approve minutes https://www.w3.org/2019/02/27-dxwgdcat-minutes 21:07:25 Topic: Publication schedule 21:08:14 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17Du2hZzIxejX7MT6MlmZOIdMKFonrLRUUAn1v5XJwt4/edit#gid=0 21:08:22 alejandra: as discussed in previous meetings, the target is mid-March. There are many editorial issues to resolve, e.g. how we display properties, but there are also many other issues 21:08:41 I need access 21:08:44 ... Dave B made a spreadsheet. we have progressed 21:09:06 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17Du2hZzIxejX7MT6MlmZOIdMKFonrLRUUAn1v5XJwt4/edit#gid=0 21:09:12 me now i can see it 21:09:59 q? 21:10:19 alejandra: the spreadsheet requires analysis to see what really needs to be done 21:10:48 ... e.g. fundingSource was addressed by wasGeneratedBy, 21:11:07 q? 21:11:29 ... but it would be nice to see how to record a funding source, so we need an example 21:11:36 q? 21:11:44 ... because the requirement was couched in these terms 21:12:05 alejandra: there is one issue about profile definition. 21:12:23 ... Perhaps not so fundamental - not a priority 21:12:43 AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat 21:12:50 ... we haven't done dataset publications 21:12:52 q? 21:12:55 present+ 21:13:03 +1 not to consider it as a priority 21:13:10 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17Du2hZzIxejX7MT6MlmZOIdMKFonrLRUUAn1v5XJwt4/edit#gid=0 21:13:16 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 21:13:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/06-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego 21:14:17 s/ 1 not to consider it as a priority/ 1 not to consider issue 72 as a priority 21:16:02 alejandra: dataset publications - I drafted something, but is incomplete. 21:16:05 q? 21:16:20 +q 21:16:29 q+ 21:16:30 ack riccardoAlbertoni 21:17:14 riccardoAlbertoni: the quality example; I'm considering having this in the primer 21:17:57 q? 21:18:02 ack AndreaPerego 21:18:24 AndreaPerego: the publicaitons - scientific papers or reports about the datasets - I can provide examples 21:18:46 ... we have not included in the spec a way to point to a publication 21:18:57 https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pull/803 21:19:04 s/the publicaitons/the publications 21:19:11 alejandra: yes, but there is an incomplete PR I submitted today for this - perhaps we can discuss later 21:19:32 AndreaPerego: I contributed a use case on how this is done 21:19:35 https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/63 21:20:22 q? 21:20:27 alejandra: the data quality model is completed, but the example is designated as incomplete (yellow) 21:20:55 alejandra: project context - been partially dealt with - qualified relations 21:21:10 q? 21:21:23 q+ 21:21:38 ack SimonCox 21:22:26 SimonCox: I haven't done any more work because we're busy wiht other things - it is not essential, but perhaps needs to be in a WG note. no action needed at the moment 21:23:01 q? 21:23:04 alejandra: I want to agree today what we are not considering for the final pub. we can then see what is essential and can estimate time needed to complete 21:23:54 ... mapping of qualified / non-qualified forms - closed. we said that it will not be addressed 21:23:57 q? 21:24:24 +1. to won't fix 21:24:26 SimonCox: I have done a few, but not specifically from DCAT ... DC mapping to PROV 21:24:46 ... it is not hard, but we need to determine importance 21:25:24 q? 21:25:36 alejandra: we had already decided that this was niche 21:25:53 ... #79 has been addressed 21:26:00 a? 21:26:01 q? 21:26:08 s/a?/ 21:26:31 q? 21:26:32 ... related datasets has already been addressed. we need examples, but that is the same for all 21:27:05 ... then we have schema.org - do we want it in the spec? 21:27:10 q? 21:27:16 q+ 21:27:22 ack SimonCox 21:27:28 ... we singled out this one due to its importance 21:27:46 q+ 21:28:14 SimonCox: it is in the non-normative section. the table I included is still there, but AndreaPerego made a suggestion that some code would do it better 21:28:18 ack alejandra 21:28:43 The SPARQL implementation of the mappings is at https://github.com/ec-jrc/dcat-ap-to-schema-org/tree/master/sparql 21:29:06 alejandra: there was a collab notebook with a SPARQL construct 21:29:25 SimonCox: it is perhaps better to move this into an annex 21:29:26 q? 21:29:46 +1 to move it out of the body 21:29:54 ... don't get rid of it altogether, but remove it from the core doc into an informative section 21:29:54 +q 21:29:58 q+ 21:30:03 ack alejandra 21:30:53 ack AndreaPerego 21:30:58 alejandra: I agree that it should be away into a primer or another informative section. There were concerns because of the lax nature of schema.org that mapping might not be accurate 21:31:10 q+ 21:31:47 +q 21:32:22 AndreaPerego: I support the alejandra proposal. 2 issues: schema.org is released often and changes, so it should be clear when we do this that it is version dependent 21:32:26 q+ 21:33:19 q- 21:33:56 ... and the mapping relationship using a sparql query will require reshaping the query. Perhaps the relationships should be described discursively rather than through a query 21:34:23 ... this may raise some discussion about equivalence. 21:34:46 alejandra: an implementation is probably more useful for the community 21:34:56 ack SimonCox 21:35:29 SimonCox: I have reluctance to drop entirely. we don't have a primer, but there are timing risks. 21:35:55 q+ 21:36:08 what about a separate note? 21:36:34 as an annex? 21:37:05 ... however, all the comments made earlier are valid. But we need to face the lack of appetite of developers to read docs. we need to be specific about the version. It needs to be in an annex 21:37:22 +1 to include in the annex, removing the middle column, specifying it is an attempt and referring to a specific scheme version 21:37:23 ack PWinstanley 21:37:52 PWinstanley: my recollection of the discussion about not completing it was related to what AndreaPerego said about frequent changes to schema.org 21:38:16 ... the proposal was made that schema.org should do the mapping to the revised DCAT rather than viceversa 21:38:20 +q 21:38:28 ... does it need to be complete? 21:38:34 ... yes, specify version 21:38:37 ack AndreaPerego 21:39:08 AndreaPerego: could there be a seperate doc just about this - it could be a standalone note linked to from the spec. 21:39:27 q? 21:39:56 ack alejandra 21:40:15 q? 21:40:22 +q 21:40:35 ack riccardoAlbertoni 21:41:10 riccardoAlbertoni: we should deal with vocab mappings in the next issue 21:41:38 q? 21:41:59 ...are there any others that we consider important 21:42:00 q+ 21:42:04 ack AndreaPerego 21:42:07 alejandra: in earlier discussions we did recognise the importance of schema.org. there is an (empty) section on prov-o 21:43:22 AndreaPerego: the main issue is timing. we have already mappings from SimonCox . we need a separate doc. I think we need to revise the section. I can add the ones to DCAT-AP. 21:43:40 q? 21:44:18 ... schema.org makes sense to me, but the main concern is to keep to schedule 21:45:10 +1 I agree on keep the aligning with schema.org, and abandon the others. 21:45:19 alejandra: timing is priority. schema.org is a special case due to its wide adoption. othrewise vocabs mapping can remain unaddressed 21:45:50 q? 21:45:51 annex 21:45:58 +1 to annex 21:46:09 +1 to annex 21:46:23 proposed: to move schema.org mapping to an annexe (or other doc) 21:47:41 AndreaPerego: I think a separate doc is better - it will then be clearly side work to the main specification 21:47:52 0 21:48:19 alejandra: yes, we want the spec to be long lived 21:48:22 0 21:48:26 I agree that a separate doc is better but considering the time matters.. 21:48:55 q+ 21:49:02 ack AndreaPerego 21:50:54 q? 21:50:55 AndreaPerego: there is scope for a community group to maintain a separate doc 21:51:02 resolved: to move schema.org mapping to an annex 21:51:20 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 21:51:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/06-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego 21:52:32 alejandra: ways of accessing items in a dataset 21:52:33 q? 21:52:59 q+ 21:53:04 ack AndreaPerego 21:53:25 AndreaPerego: there is no link in the UCR doc 21:53:38 alejandra: perhaps it hasn't been added 21:54:43 ... we will leave it for now 21:54:49 q? 21:54:52 ... there is no associated requirement 21:55:46 alejandra: spatial coverage - has not yet been addressed, though there has been movement from the spatial resolution discussion (about the range of the prop) 21:56:16 q+ 21:56:22 ack AndreaPerego 21:56:30 alejandra: to me this is important and necessary 21:56:40 SimonCox: I was drawing attention to this issue - a perennial difficulty. do we be prescriptive, or descriptive 21:57:37 AndreaPerego: the problem is, as SimonCox mentioned, the absence of a common way to specify an area - the most standard way is using geoSPARQL 21:58:06 ... there is a need to specify a relationship between the object and the dataset 21:58:43 q? 21:59:00 ... in some cases you just use a representative point rather than a boundary (e.g. centroid) 21:59:24 ... this was discussed on the spatial data on the web group, but as no vocab was described there was minimal guidance 21:59:45 Location Core Vocabulary: https://www.w3.org/ns/locn 22:00:18 ... it is important to recommend a solution - we are needing to be prescriptive 22:01:58 geoSPARQL: https://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/geosparql 22:02:13 ...another important issue is that the vocabs we have at present can specify the geography, but only by a single point and by a bounding box. at the moment we cannot specify this information about what it is. This is an approximation, not a real point or boundary. schema.org might provide some help as it is based on only WGS84 - but this is not enough as people need to use their own coordinate system 22:02:18 q? 22:02:59 ... my continuing concern with schema.org is the frequent change, and the chance that at some point some properties might not be there or be re-specified 22:03:13 alejandra: I agree that we should define our own 22:03:16 q? 22:04:16 me bye now 22:04:18 AndreaPerego: I should work with SimonCox to bring forward a proposal 22:05:20 q? 22:05:25 +1 22:06:01 we need to assign some actions ... 22:06:13 alejandra: next is #60. dataset aspects; fine-grained semantics 22:06:20 ... important for roba 22:06:28 q? 22:06:31 action: AndreaPerego to work out a proposal to address https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/83 22:06:31 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 22:06:35 ... I think it is important and needs resolution 22:06:51 q? 22:08:06 AndreaPerego: I think this is partially similar to others where we have to decide which instrument you want to use to get the data. 22:08:21 I created the original UC, and now I think we need to push this off to profiles 22:08:58 ... DCAT needs to point to the instrument description, and not provide that description nor define how it should be described 22:09:20 I don't think we have time to address this or enough detail in the UCs 22:09:29 q+ 22:09:32 q? 22:09:47 ack SimonCox 22:09:54 ... I'm a bit leery about this - there are so many potential use cases, and we really need a generic way otherwise we will only do a partial job 22:11:01 SimonCox: Jaroslav was the UCR doc editor covering this but I wrote the original and it reflects concerns and requirement that are genuine, but on mature reflection can be handled elsewhere 22:11:10 ... let's close this with a note that there will be application profiles that will cover this requirement 22:11:18 I agree with simon, it seems a can of worms, are we sure we want to open it considered the time matters ?!? 22:11:25 +1 22:11:29 +1 22:12:01 +q 22:12:06 ack riccardoAlbertoni 22:12:10 alejandra: the stuff on versioning. riccardoAlbertoni made a PR. 22:14:16 alejandra: Jaroslav was preparing something 22:14:27 ... we need something in this version 22:15:24 q+ 22:15:33 ack PWinstanley 22:15:57 q+ 22:16:43 ack AndreaPerego 22:17:16 PWinstanley: we need something, but it can quickly get complex so we need to constrain our expectations 22:17:24 AndreaPerego: I agree with PWinstanley 22:17:32 action: SimonCox to streamline DCAT-sdo mapping and move to Annexe. 22:17:32 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 22:18:14 ... re: github issues, is the lifecycle of a dataset or a catalog record versioning, or not? 22:19:08 ... and even if this happens, the metadata will still be valid 22:19:17 ... usually a dataset has a lifecycle, but it can then be discontinued or withdrawn - and users need to be informed about this otherwise they will be inappropriately using data 22:19:21 q? 22:20:10 ... it might be too late in the process to contribute this - there are more controversial issues, but if people agree that this is about versioning I can provide something 22:20:19 alejandra: I see it as a separate issue. 22:21:15 ... most of this is for the informative sections 22:21:23 AndreaPerego: there is official material across EU institutions. In the USA there is similar LoC labels for status / lifecycle 22:21:27 q? 22:21:53 q? 22:22:19 scribenick: AndreaPerego 22:22:24 topic: Provenance information 22:22:43 This is pretty much it ... https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#examples-dataset-provenance 22:22:48 alejandra: There are a few proposals by ncar. It seems to be also about qualified form. 22:22:54 q? 22:23:05 and https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#qualified-forms 22:23:24 ... Some of these elements have been covered. 22:23:35 q? 22:23:46 ... Do we want to specify relationship to software as well? 22:24:06 q? 22:24:09 This was nick car's thing of course, and he has been totally occupied with Profiles 22:24:23 q+ 22:24:28 ack AndreaPerego 22:24:51 and https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#Property:dataset_wasgeneratedby I'm basically comfortable with 22:25:00 what we have in these sections 22:25:17 yes - we can always use more examples, but the basic pointers are there now 22:25:28 q? 22:25:37 AndreaPerego: In theory, using PROV, this should be possible. 22:25:50 ... The software will be an agent. 22:26:00 +1 to software as an agent see prov:SoftwareAgent 22:26:07 alejandra: I put it as yellow, to see if its havee been covered. 22:26:12 topic: Publication source 22:26:35 alejandra: This is about referencing the original metadata with its identifier. 22:26:56 q? 22:27:12 q+ 22:27:28 ack AndreaPerego 22:27:39 See also a specific issue https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/132 22:28:16 of course dcat:Dataset rdfs:subClassOf prov:Entity is entailed by the use of prov:wasGeneratedBy predicate - so it does not actually need to be asserted ... 22:29:46 Apologies folk - I have to sign off now 22:30:12 rrsagent, draft minutes v2 22:30:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/06-dxwgdcat-minutes.html SimonCox 22:31:38 +q to say I thought the andreas' case was partially covered by dcat:catalog, but I might be worg 22:31:46 alejandra: How much you think is this important? 22:32:02 AndreaPerego: I think it is important, but still my concern is timing. 22:32:25 ... So probably we can make it gray, and come back to it if we have time. 22:33:05 topic: Usage notes. 22:33:08 q- 22:33:27 alejandra: ncar commented that this is provenance use case. 22:33:45 https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ols/ontologies/duo 22:33:49 Data Use Ontology 22:33:50 ... there are a number of suggested vocabularis, but they are no W3C ones. 22:34:04 ... There's also DUV. 22:34:23 DUV: https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-duv/ 22:34:30 riccardoAlbertoni: I'm not sure which supports DUV will provide. 22:34:53 q? 22:35:00 alejandra: Considering the little participation in that issue, I would mark it as won't fix 22:35:47 riccardoAlbertoni: Maybe we can check first DUV / DQV if they may provide something useful. 22:35:48 q+ 22:36:19 alejandra: So we may mark it for investigation. 22:36:46 ... But do we have time? 22:37:03 riccardoAlbertoni: If the deadline is next week, it would be difficult. 22:37:05 ack AndreaPerego 22:40:06 put me on 86 22:41:31 An example http://data.jrc.ec.europa.eu/dataset/af5644c2-d3dd-46e3-9490-44b143fb3163 22:44:12 But this is about lineage (dct:provenance). 22:47:42 q? 22:47:48 +q 22:47:58 ack riccardoAlbertoni 22:48:52 AndreaPerego: DUV is more complex that a simple property to link to a piece of narrative text. An option is to provide both examples. 22:51:11 riccardoAlbertoni: I partially agree, but providing different options may lead to confusion. 22:52:32 topic: Dataset / catalog relation 22:52:57 alejandra: I think there are some implications that a dataset must be in the catalog. 22:53:07 riccardoAlbertoni: I don't think there is this constraint. 22:53:44 https://www.w3.org/TR/dcat-ucr/#ID35 22:53:52 alejandra: [checking the DCAT spec] Actually, it doesn't seem to be a requirement. So why people raised this issue? 22:56:46 AndreaPerego: The related use case was contributed by Makx, so maybe we should ask him. I only partially guess what is about, but it is unclear which is the proposed solution. 22:57:12 alejandra: Maybe we need to rephrase a few things in DCAT. 22:58:41 ... Maybe it's the current definition of catalog is misleading. 22:58:42 topic: Temporal coverage 23:03:58 AndreaPerego: the problem is DCAT 2014 didn't provide properties to specify start/end dates, and in DCAT-AP the decision was to use schema.org. But now schema.org is not longer using them for the same purpose (now they use schema:temporalCoverage). 23:04:30 ... To address this, we could simply define two properties dcat:startDate and dcat:endDate. 23:04:48 alejandra: AndreaPerego, I will then ask you to make a proposal. 23:05:13 action: AndreaPerego to draft a proposal to addres https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/85 23:05:13 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 23:05:47 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 23:05:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/06-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego 23:10:47 alejandra: I think we can close now. 23:11:00 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 23:11:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/06-dxwgdcat-minutes.html alejandra 23:11:13 [meeting adjourned] 23:11:15 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 23:11:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/06-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego 23:13:19 s/more complex that/more complex than/ 23:13:21 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 23:13:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/06-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego