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01:40:57 <tzviya> Meeting: PWG Asia Telco
01:41:07 <tzviya> Date: 2019-02-17
01:41:12 <tzviya> Chair: Tzviya
01:41:20 <tzviya> present+
01:53:22 <florian[m]> present+
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01:57:50 <jKamata> present+
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01:59:03 <dauwhe> present+
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01:59:48 <toshiakikoike> present+
02:00:51 <jyoshii> present+
02:01:33 <JunGamo> present+
02:02:12 <Avneesh> present+
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02:02:33 <florian> ScribeNick: florian
02:02:50 <florian> tzviya: let's introduce eachother
02:03:04 <tzviya> tzviya: Wiley, co-chair PWG
02:03:38 <florian> florian: Invited expert, CSS-WG and AB (and other groups), based in Japan
02:03:50 <tzviya> Avneesh: COO of DAISY, joined with IDPF
02:04:00 <dauwhe> dauwhe: Dave Cramer, Hachette Book Group, CSSWG, co-chair of EPUB 3 CG, editor of EPUB 3.2
02:04:09 <Avneesh> Avneesh Singh, DAISY Consortium
02:05:26 <wendyreid> present+
02:06:25 <JunGamo> Junko Kamata, Toshiaki Koike, Jun Gamo : We 3 are from Voyager Japan, Inc.
02:07:35 <florian> Topic: Overview of Publishing WG work
02:07:49 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/blob/master/explainers/wpub-explainer.md
02:07:55 <florian> tzviya: I plan to giving an overview, but I think everyone here is familiar, so maybe a link will be enough
02:08:11 <florian> tzviya: additionally, we recently decided to split the work in modules
02:08:26 <florian> tzviya: main module is the WP, focusing on metadata and manifest
02:08:48 <florian> tzviya: another module is audiobooks, because of a newly discovered urgent business need
02:09:06 <florian> tzviya: open to do other modules, to avoid over-focusing on one domain
02:09:17 <florian> tzviya: interested in feedback
02:10:14 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
02:10:33 <dauwhe> florian: this a both a personal point of view and one I've heard from publishers in Japa
02:10:56 <dauwhe> ... first, on EPUB 3... as you know Japan has a strong EPUB 3 market centered on Manga, and it's mostly working
02:11:05 <dauwhe> ... there is not a strong need for anything new
02:11:11 <dauwhe> ... having improved interop is good
02:11:22 <dauwhe> ... making sure we don't break compat is extremely important
02:11:28 <dauwhe> ... but mostly EPUB 3 is working
02:11:34 <dauwhe> ... so no strong need for new things
02:11:51 <dauwhe> ... in the longer term, people see a continuing tension between web platform and publishing platform
02:12:01 <dauwhe> ... many new things in web for typography, a11y, security, etc
02:12:08 <dauwhe> ... they take many years to reach publishing world
02:12:09 <Daihei_Shiohama> Daihei_Shiohama has joined #pwg
02:12:23 <dauwhe> ... so the publishing side is not participating as actively as the web side
02:12:55 <dauwhe> ... merging things so the browser is the book reader would solve this problem
02:13:00 <dauwhe> ... it's a worthy long-term goal
02:13:08 <dauwhe> ... in that context, what has been going on in PWG
02:13:32 <dauwhe> ... it's unclear how this achieves these goals
02:13:49 <dauwhe> ... so no one here has anything against what's been happening
02:13:57 <dauwhe> ... audio books isn't a pressing need
02:14:21 <dauwhe> ... the work doesn't do much for the EPUB 3 market, and it doesn't seem to bridge the gap between publisshing formats and what the browsers can do directly
02:14:46 <tzviya> scribenick: florian
02:14:50 <florian> ???: agree with florian
02:15:07 <tzviya> s/???/tzviya
02:15:14 <florian> ???: what we expect from WP, is that browsers will become better at rendering Japanese text
02:15:22 <tzviya> s/???/JunGamo
02:15:34 <florian> tzviya: the first part, about EPUB3 being stable
02:15:52 <florian> tzviya: the CG has been working on further stabilizing EPUB 3 further
02:15:59 <florian> tzviya: testing should help as well
02:16:16 <florian> tzviya: EPUB3 is stable, but could be even more
02:16:16 <florian> q+
02:16:34 <florian> tzviya: epubcheck importance is important as well
02:16:35 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/blog/2018/10/epubcheck-fundraising/
02:16:42 <florian> s/importance/maintenance/
02:16:51 <dauwhe> q?
02:17:07 <tzviya> ack florian
02:17:14 <dauwhe> florian: on the EPUBCheck maintenance
02:17:21 <dauwhe> ... it's good that it's being maintained
02:17:27 <dauwhe> ... we should be careful about fixing bugs
02:17:45 <dauwhe> ... because EPUBCheck defines the spec
02:17:53 <dauwhe> ... and we don't want to break existing content
02:18:06 <dauwhe> tzviya: we're being careful
02:18:08 <dauwhe> q+
02:18:29 <dauwhe> florian: there was an issue with the relax NG grammar being updated
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02:18:53 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
02:19:14 <florian> dauwhe: please report such bugs
02:19:17 <tzviya> report issues about epubcheck at https://github.com/w3c/epubcheck
02:19:30 <florian> I'll pass the message along, and ask people to report it
02:19:42 <florian> tzviya: going back to merging publishing and the web
02:19:55 <florian> tzviya: that was the main reason for the merged between IDPF and W3C
02:20:01 <florian> tzviya: that's why I am involved
02:20:39 <florian> tzviya: I want to see involvement in the WG from people who want that to happen
02:20:53 <florian> tzviya: we have active participation from people with a different vision
02:21:08 <florian> tzviya: a lot of people have not seen the business case for publications on the web
02:21:55 <florian> tzviya: I keep hearing epub/kobo/kindle/... works for me, and people are puzzled about the business case
02:22:51 <wendyreid> florian: From my understanding, there is not a pressing business need for the merger of the publishing and web platform
02:23:05 <wendyreid> ... as of right now, things work. But in the long term, the web is taking on more of these things.
02:23:34 <wendyreid> ... there are many things that are hard to do today because of the technical lag of the OWP, especially in terms of typography and language
02:24:15 <wendyreid> ... EPUB is lagging behind the web in this area. Selling books tomorrow is fine, but in the long term, for the benefit of readers, keeping the publishing platform at the same level as the web platform is difficult
02:24:40 <wendyreid> ... we do not need to do away with packaging or selling books individually. Having a packaging format for browsers is an important thing
02:24:55 <Avneesh> q+
02:24:57 <wendyreid> ... the only long term viable thing is to meet with the web platform
02:24:59 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
02:25:19 <Daihei_Shiohama> q+
02:25:45 <Yanni> present+
02:25:59 <wendyreid> Avneesh: I agree with Florian, the publishing platform needs to catch up with the web platform
02:26:24 <wendyreid> ... business managers cannot yet see the argument, but we need to make them aware of the long term goal, and the need for it.
02:26:30 <tzviya> ack Daihei_Shiohama
02:26:34 <wendyreid> ... this is not specific to Japan, but to WP in general
02:27:00 <wendyreid> Daihei_Shiohama: I've been speaking to the other Japanese publishers in trade, many are also doing magazine publishing
02:27:11 <wendyreid> ... in trade publication, EPUB3 is good enough.
02:27:35 <wendyreid> ... for magazines, or scholarly or academic, they would require web publications
02:28:02 <wendyreid> ... in W3C discussions, there is a need for those kind of publications to be mentioned
02:28:06 <florian> q+ to ask daihei what features maganzine / education publisher think are missing in EPUB. Is it typographical features?
02:28:13 <tzviya> ack fl
02:28:13 <Zakim> florian, you wanted to ask daihei what features maganzine / education publisher think are missing in EPUB. Is it typographical features?
02:28:40 <wendyreid> florian: When you say publishers of magazines or scholarly publications, what do you mean? What are the challenges?
02:28:53 <wendyreid> Daihei_Shiohama: Magazines are using PDF formats
02:29:03 <wendyreid> ... they want to make use of images and reflowable text
02:29:18 <wendyreid> ... the same is true in academic publishing, they are using the web for their content
02:29:46 <wendyreid> tzviya: I don't think this is different from the rest of the world, the world of magazines has never embraced EPUB
02:29:57 <wendyreid> ... I work for a large scholarly publisher, they use PDF or HTML
02:30:01 <florian> q+ after tzviya
02:30:09 <wendyreid> ... we could have a lengthy discussion to discuss why that is
02:30:13 <JunGamo> q+
02:30:21 <florian> q- after tzviya
02:30:24 <wendyreid> ... I think we are largely revisiting discussions we've had before
02:30:45 <florian> q+
02:30:52 <wendyreid> ... I would like to talk about what it is we can develop from an asian perspective in WP we can get your input on developing, we can thrive
02:31:06 <tzviya> ack JunGamo
02:31:11 <wendyreid> ... we would be a step closer to developing the relationship between web and publishing
02:31:29 <wendyreid> JunGamo: This may not be the main topic, but I would like to mention that mainly trade publishers are interested in DRM
02:31:43 <wendyreid> ... because EPUB3 distribution systems had DRM, it was used
02:31:58 <wendyreid> ... if there was a reason to use WP, they would demand DRM modules
02:32:18 <wendyreid> tzviya: DRM is explicitly out of scope for our charter
02:32:28 <wendyreid> ... encryption can exist wherever you publish
02:32:39 <wendyreid> ... if we succeed in creating WP, someone will create DRM
02:32:51 <tzviya> ack florian
02:32:52 <wendyreid> JunGamo: We understand
02:33:05 <wendyreid> florian: I think this is both a respone to tzviya and Daihei_Shiohama
02:33:29 <wendyreid> ... the case for magazines or scholarly is it's better on the web than EPUB, but it's not perfect
02:33:48 <wendyreid> ... developing parallel solutions is not productive, we need to work with the web
02:34:00 <wendyreid> ... the one thing WP doesn't seem to do is get closer to UA implementation
02:34:07 <wendyreid> ... I hope it is the first thing we tackle
02:34:12 <tzviya> q+
02:34:19 <Daihei_Shiohama> +1 to Florian
02:34:29 <wendyreid> ... coming up with a packaging format for browsers, if it's not something browsers want to do, what is the point
02:34:53 <wendyreid> ... I do not have much to say about web packaging from Google, but strategically it is aligned with what we are looking for
02:35:02 <wendyreid> ... maybe we should support this effort, or create our own
02:35:07 <dauwhe> q?
02:35:10 <dauwhe> q+
02:35:12 <wendyreid> ... we need browsers in the discussion
02:35:13 <tzviya> ack tzviya
02:35:34 <wendyreid> tzviya: As far as a packaging format that browsers will support, all I know of is google's web packaging
02:36:02 <wendyreid> ... it was proposed by the TAG, and we have been in talks with jyasskin and Kenji
02:36:07 <wendyreid> ... we would like to adopt it when it is ready
02:36:16 <wendyreid> ... if you are aware of other packaging formats, let us know
02:36:20 <wendyreid> florian: I am not
02:36:37 <wendyreid> tzviya: I do not think our group is equipped to provide a packaging format
02:36:46 <wendyreid> ... unless dauwhe has something ;)
02:37:02 <wendyreid> ... It's a large ask. The google project is a large undertaking involving the W3C and IETF
02:37:13 <wendyreid> ... we have not been as involved as we should be and make our needs know
02:37:25 <wendyreid> ... if that becomes a true spec, the PWG will likely adopt it
02:37:29 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
02:37:41 <wendyreid> dauwhe: I just want to mention one caveat, Mozilla is officially against it so far
02:37:59 <wendyreid> ... and I think it would require a fair amount of change to work for publishing use cases.
02:38:21 <wendyreid> ... Those changes are very tied up with issues of security, and makes it hard for us to participate on equal footing
02:38:45 <wendyreid> florian: I realize this is both big and difficult as a topic, but it's central to our effort to improve the web to include publishing
02:38:59 <wendyreid> ... the two activities are very different
02:39:08 <wendyreid> tzviya: I would like to change direction a big
02:39:29 <wendyreid> ... I want to understand if the PWG has supported our asian colleagues well enough
02:39:43 <wendyreid> ... if a call like this is needed, will it attract more participation
02:40:08 <wendyreid> ... first question is if you think there are specific issues in your area of publishing that are not being addressed?
02:40:52 <Daihei_Shiohama> Florian, you should speak up!
02:41:18 <wendyreid> florian: One thing that has been very helpful for Japanese publishing, JL req??
02:41:40 <tzviya> s/JL req ??/JLReq
02:41:41 <wendyreid> ... the requirement for japanese language, it helps guide a lot of the work in CSS, and not all of it is solved, but we have a map to follow
02:41:51 <wendyreid> ... Manga is huge, but we do not have a manga req
02:42:14 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/community/bdcomacg/
02:42:33 <wendyreid> ... if you try to compose manga to get better accessibility or richer layouts, without a rec we are working without guidance
02:42:42 <wendyreid> ... maybe not for a working group
02:43:06 <wendyreid> tzviya: I have provided a link to the manga/comics/bandes desinées CG
02:43:08 <tzviya> JLReq-> https://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/
02:43:18 <wendyreid> ... many from Readium are involved in that
02:43:42 <wendyreid> ... I think that the manga req is a good idea, but not from PWG necessarily, or maybe from CSS?
02:43:50 <wendyreid> ... I have been hearing a lot about the need for manga
02:44:00 <wendyreid> ... I have wondered if manga is the next module we work on
02:44:10 <wendyreid> ... I hesitate to take it up too quickly
02:44:25 <wendyreid> ... we worked on taxonomy for speech bubbles at one point and was very difficult
02:44:47 <JunGamo> +1 to Florian
02:44:50 <wendyreid> florian: In terms of short term market needs, I do not think that WP would be adopted in Japan, the cost benefit doesn't weigh out
02:45:12 <wendyreid> ... We would like to take advantage of the richness of the web platform, but it is not a short term need, we need stability
02:45:15 <Daihei_Shiohama> q+
02:45:21 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
02:45:24 <tzviya> ack Daihei_Shiohama
02:45:24 <wendyreid> tzviya: I would encourage you to work with the comics CG
02:45:27 <wendyreid> Daihei_Shiohama:
02:45:38 <wendyreid> Daihei_Shiohama: I totally agree with florian
02:45:43 <wendyreid> ... manga is such a huge business
02:45:52 <wendyreid> ... the whole business doesn't want to change
02:46:07 <wendyreid> ... the readers are looking for a faithful repoduction of the print version
02:46:23 <wendyreid> ... WP for manga, will be a very different product from EPUB3 FXL products
02:46:25 <florian> +1
02:46:31 <wendyreid> ... who needs that, that is the question
02:46:51 <wendyreid> ... you need more voices from other digital content publishers, gaming companies, mobile app companies
02:46:58 <tzviya> rrsagent, make logs public
02:47:10 <wendyreid> ... all the other people engaged in VR, AR, alternate content experiences
02:47:20 <wendyreid> ... the PWG currently doesnt' have those people, we do not hear the need
02:47:41 <wendyreid> ... trade publications do not need it right now, but there are segments of the industry that could make use of it
02:47:50 <wendyreid> ... creators of a new generation of content
02:48:12 <wendyreid> tzviya: I do think it would be very interesting to have a call with the W3C immersive reality group
02:48:19 <wendyreid> ... the W3C has a whole group working on this
02:48:28 <wendyreid> ... the brainstorming would be very interesting
02:48:39 <wendyreid> ... the work is being done here
02:48:59 <florian> q+
02:49:04 <wendyreid> ... There is real interest in moving forward with manga, but florian's suggestion to move ahead with req's in the community group
02:49:06 <florian> q-
02:49:26 <wendyreid> ... I would like to figure out, is this meeting helpful?
02:49:38 <wendyreid> ... would having something like this regularly attract more participation
02:50:16 <wendyreid> ... do you think it would attract more people?
02:50:37 <wendyreid> JunGamo: Speaking of time zones, this time is very good
02:51:21 <wendyreid> ... on the other hand, the main point of the WG is talking about the spec, Japanese publishers do not have a strong opinion on the spec currently
02:51:40 <wendyreid> ... changing the time zone to be better for Japan, may not increase participation
02:51:41 <jyoshii> q+
02:51:46 <tzviya> ack jyoshii
02:52:57 <wendyreid> jyoshii: It's very helpful for us to have a call in this time zone, in my opinion, switching time zones frequently is not so good for me
02:53:07 <wendyreid> ... I prefer to have a fixed time - day or night
02:53:28 <JunGamo> q+
02:53:30 <wendyreid> ... some will have to stay up late, I'd prefer to take the call in my pj's every time
02:53:32 <tzviya> ack JunGamo
02:53:42 <florian> q+
02:54:04 <wendyreid> JunGamo: One more thing to add, maybe many of the Japanese people in the industry are not used to expressing themselves in English in real time
02:54:35 <wendyreid> ... having a meeting to put their thoughts together in Japanese, then report to the group via a translator (like Florian)
02:54:45 <Avneesh> +1
02:54:45 <wendyreid> tzviya: That is a very interesting idea~
02:54:50 <Daihei_Shiohama> q+
02:54:57 <wendyreid> ... I can't imagine having a meeting that is not my first
02:55:01 <wendyreid> ... language
02:55:27 <wendyreid> ... we experimented with a translation tool at a recent AB meeting, it was not very good, we tried the free version
02:55:46 <wendyreid> ... but the paid version has dictionaries that could add technical language
02:55:59 <wendyreid> ... a tool like this might allow us to speak more freely in our own languages
02:56:05 <tzviya> ack florian
02:56:09 <wendyreid> ... we can consider having a pre-meeting
02:56:16 <wendyreid> florian: I would like to return the question
02:57:07 <wendyreid> ... currently the PWG is dominated by a different perspective, Japan doesn't have a strong interest in competing with that, but we might need to change philosophy and I don't want to butt in
02:57:24 <wendyreid> tzviya: I don't want to stop what we're doing, it would increase the work, I think audiobooks is very important
02:57:36 <wendyreid> ... once we complete the work on audiobooks, we will need something else to keep us going
02:57:47 <wendyreid> ... we don't have a clear way forward to merge the web and publishing platform
02:58:02 <wendyreid> ... I would love to work on scholarly, but Wiley is the only publisher in that area
02:58:12 <wendyreid> ... I would like to work on Manga, but we need buy-in from the community
02:58:16 <wendyreid> ... we need participation
02:58:22 <wendyreid> .. we need the important publishers in the room
02:58:29 <Avneesh> q+
02:58:36 <wendyreid> ... we need to understand the needs and requirements
02:58:42 <wendyreid> ... a req doc is a good step
02:58:43 <tzviya> ack Daihei_Shiohama
02:59:33 <wendyreid> Daihei_Shiohama: I agree with tzviya and florian, the truth is that the WG after TPI, some companies are leaving, we have lost some participation because of the language issue and membership
02:59:44 <wendyreid> ... they don't understand what is going on and don't know how to speak out
02:59:49 <wendyreid> ... they aren't used to the interactions
03:00:05 <wendyreid> ... even if we have an asian-friendly time, it's considerate, the language issue is a huge block
03:00:16 <jyoshii> +1 to Daihei
03:00:19 <wendyreid> ... I still think that the future is in new publication types
03:00:32 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
03:00:33 <wendyreid> ... scholarly, education, gaming all are needed
03:00:58 <wendyreid> Avneesh: I would agree with the language issues. PWG is where things become finalized, intial things happen elsewhere
03:01:25 <wendyreid> ... we should be throwing the ball to BG and CG for incubation of ideas and outreach, and the PWG is for writing specs
03:01:39 <wendyreid> tzviya: We started a CG for publishing, but we need chairs
03:02:11 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/community/publishingcg/
03:02:14 <wendyreid> ... W3C started a formal-ish incubation process where ideas were formed in the CGs and then it is proposed to the WG
03:02:28 <wendyreid> ... if we had chairs we could get this off the ground
03:03:02 <wendyreid> ... it is not a lot of work, setting up a regular monthly call, a github repo, it could be a good outlet for people.
03:03:10 <wendyreid> ... one last question, should we do this on a regular basis?
03:03:23 <wendyreid> ... I get the sense that it would be more valuable to address the language issue
03:03:26 <wendyreid> ... or a pre-meeting
03:03:33 <wendyreid> ... with a rep more confortable in english
03:03:35 <JunGamo> +1
03:03:50 <jyoshii> +1
03:03:53 <Daihei_Shiohama> +1 to Tzviya
03:04:03 <wendyreid> florian: I would be honoured to be the representative, but I cannot chair
03:04:16 <wendyreid> tzviya: Let me follow up with the chairs on the next chairs call
03:04:31 <wendyreid> ... which is wednesday, after the next meeting
03:04:44 <wendyreid> ... please let us know if we are talking too quickly or need clarification
03:04:53 <wendyreid> ... feel free to talk in the IRC
03:05:21 <wendyreid> ... I will work with Wendy, Ivan, and Garth to arrange pre-meeting on topics you feel we need to address
03:05:35 <florian> I wonder if we should also have pre-meeting and a messenger, not just for translating Japanese to English, but also for translating Publishing to Security/Packaging/Networking, so that we can gather study together what google is doing with web packaging, discuss our needs and requirement, and then send a messenger over to push for our feedback.
03:05:42 <wendyreid> ... we are sending out the agendas 2 weeks in advance, so flag issues to us if you feel they aren't being addressed
03:06:36 <wendyreid> florian: Since we have addressed that browser packaging is happening, the culture shock between publishing and web is as big as between asia and the US
03:06:45 <wendyreid> .... participation is better than waiting and seeing
03:06:48 <Daihei_Shiohama> Great!
03:07:01 <wendyreid> tzviya: Let's set up time to talk
03:07:13 <wendyreid> ... I will send the minutes out tomorrow
03:07:20 <JunGamo> Thank you, Tsviya and all for the meeting
03:07:20 <toshiakikoike> thank you
03:07:39 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
03:07:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/08-pwg-minutes.html tzviya
03:08:14 <tzviya> rrasagent, make logs public
03:08:31 <tzviya> rrsagent, make logs public
03:08:43 <tzviya> rrsagent, draft minutes
03:08:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/08-pwg-minutes.html tzviya
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