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16:00:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
16:00:02 <trackbot> Date: 07 February 2019
16:00:42 <nigel> Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/02/07-tt-irc
16:00:57 <cyril> scribe: cyril
16:01:07 <cyril> Present+ Nigel, Cyril, Philippe
16:01:36 <cyril> agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/17
16:01:53 <nigel> Chair: Nigel
16:01:58 <nigel> Regrets: Gary
16:03:15 <cyril> nigel: we went through all of our requirements and decided if we want to go with them or not in 2019
16:03:40 <cyril> ... and decided to go with the idea of a modularization
16:03:54 <cyril> ... we'll have a draft charter update by the end of Februrary
16:04:03 <cyril> plh: do you need anything?
16:04:15 <cyril> ... I will share the charter template that we have
16:04:28 <cyril> nigel: it might already by done because we have a TTWG charter
16:04:37 <nigel> Present+ Andreas
16:04:41 <cyril> plh: we keep changing the template efvery two months
16:04:55 <plh> ACTION: plh to refresh the Timed Text charter draft
16:04:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-515 - Refresh the timed text charter draft [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2019-02-14].
16:05:09 <cyril> nigel: we are not using the tracker anymore but a github repo
16:05:16 <cyril> ... also to host the wg home page
16:05:25 <atai> atai has joined #tt
16:05:28 <cyril> plh: I recorded the action because it's easier for me
16:05:44 <cyril> nigel: it'd be good to have it as an issue on the TTWG charter repo
16:06:22 <cyril> Present+: Pierre
16:06:36 <cyril> s/+:/+/
16:07:26 <cyril> Present+ Glenn
16:07:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Cyril, Philippe, Andreas, :, Pierre, Glenn
16:07:45 <cyril> Present- :
16:07:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Cyril, Philippe, Andreas, :, Pierre, Glenn
16:08:30 <cyril> glenn: I have a short item for philippe
16:08:36 <cyril> ... regarding the TTML3 repo
16:08:57 <cyril> nigel: we'll discuss it in the AOB
16:09:01 <cyril> Topic: TTML Profile Registry Actions, Pull Requests and Issues
16:09:16 <cyril> nigel: we have both editors
16:09:20 <cyril> ... no specific agenda
16:09:26 <cyril> ... but bunch of issues open
16:10:00 <cyril> ... one about whether we ought to use specref to W3C documents
16:10:11 <cyril> plh: my recommendation is to try to use specref as much as possible
16:10:20 <cyril> ... but it also has its own limitations
16:10:47 <cyril> glenn: my position is that because arbitrary changes can be made in specref it creates an instability
16:11:06 <cyril> ... a normative ref can be changed underneath
16:11:22 <cyril> plh: you need to specify a dated reference
16:11:33 <cyril> glenn: a specific commit in the repo?
16:11:43 <plh> https://www.specref.org/?q=ttml1
16:11:49 <cyril> plh: example TTML1
16:11:50 <glenn> glenn has joined #tt
16:12:05 <cyril> ... if you search specref, you have lot of entries
16:12:14 <cyril> ... you can find a specific version
16:12:29 <cyril> glenn: what is preventing this ref from changing under me
16:12:29 <plh> eg [ttml1-20181108]
16:12:55 <cyril> nigel: for all of the W3C reference it is using the TR spec as a reference for sourcing the info
16:13:10 <cyril> ... the only way it can change is if the TR document changes
16:13:27 <cyril> plh: specref pulls data from databases (IETF, ...)
16:13:34 <cyril> ... no change out of the blue
16:13:47 <cyril> glenn: are you claiming it is impossible to have a change
16:13:54 <cyril> plh: no in theory it's impossible
16:14:05 <cyril> s/it's impossible/
16:14:12 <cyril> ... it's possible but hard
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16:14:20 <pal> q+
16:14:34 <cyril> glenn: it makes me uncomfortable to delegate the handling of normative references
16:14:42 <plh> q+
16:14:55 <cyril> mike: I like stable documents, but no comment
16:15:08 <cyril> glenn: no objection to us delegating the normative references
16:15:20 <plh> ack pal
16:15:25 <cyril> s/no objection/you have no objection/
16:16:05 <cyril> mike: seems that W3C staff don't worry about that
16:16:22 <cyril> pal: can this be settle offline
16:16:35 <cyril> ... can we move to something more substansive
16:16:42 <cyril> ... I think we have discussed it enough
16:16:52 <cyril> q+
16:17:21 <cyril> plh: if you are referencing a dated version, chances that it changes behind your back are null
16:17:28 <cyril> ack cyril
16:17:32 <cyril> ack plh
16:18:14 <cyril> glenn: I'm willing to compromise with the following condition
16:18:32 <cyril> ... if the information pulled from specref is indentical to what we would put locally
16:18:36 <cyril> ... I can accept this
16:18:50 <cyril> ... but in some cases it produces something inconsistent
16:19:09 <cyril> ... for example there was an issue btw WG Note vs non Note
16:19:23 <nigel> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/59/5483f8e...c847a99.html PR diff
16:19:47 <cyril> plh: it is substansively the same
16:20:03 <cyril> glenn: it would be good for W3C to take over responsibility
16:20:16 <cyril> plh: which tool are you using respec, bikeshed, ...
16:20:20 <cyril> glenn: respec
16:20:37 <cyril> plh: marcos is a great guy and I hope he'll keep maintaining it
16:21:02 <cyril> ... I'm willing to fix any issue that are not solved in respec
16:21:38 <cyril> ... W3C staff commits to ensure that respec or specref still satisfy the needs of the WG
16:22:28 <cyril> nigel: there is one other PR but it does not need discussion as it can be unlocked now
16:23:00 <cyril> ... can we get a view from the editors as to how much work is needed to publish a new version
16:23:21 <cyril> glenn: since this issue of respec has been blocking me, I have not worked on it. Now I can work on it
16:23:34 <cyril> ... I need to take today's decision into account
16:23:40 <cyril> ... but we should be able to move on
16:24:21 <cyril> mike: when I said I'd be happy to be editor it was to add more profiles, not to rewrite everything
16:24:33 <cyril> ... it might be better if someone else would approve the PR
16:24:41 <cyril> nigel: are you asking not be editor anymore?
16:24:54 <cyril> mike: yes because I'm not up to why these changes are necessary
16:25:12 <cyril> nigel: glenn seems happy to make the changes
16:25:39 <cyril> topic: TTWG Future requirements
16:26:01 <cyril> nigel: we are in a pretty good place after last week's meeting
16:26:14 <cyril> ... I have an action to try to address the vagueness of one or 2 requirements
16:26:25 <cyril> ... certainly one for spoken/audio subtitles
16:26:51 <cyril> ... everything else is pretty much agreed
16:27:12 <cyril> ... thanks andreas to volunteer as primary editor for the VR/360 module work
16:28:03 <cyril> ... drafting an explainer document would be helpful internally and externally
16:28:17 <cyril> for horizontal review groups, including the tag
16:28:29 <cyril> ... I sent an email explaining how to write an explainer
16:28:30 <nigel> -> TAG Explainer for Explainers
16:28:47 <cyril> s/for horizontal/... for horizontal/
16:28:54 <nigel> s|->|-> https://w3ctag.github.io/explainers |
16:30:18 <cyril> nigel: if we can all look at the requirements for which we have ownership and write something short
16:30:23 <cyril> ... for mid march
16:30:34 <cyril> ... I'd suggest we do it as a markdown document, for speed
16:30:48 <cyril> ... it makes sense to do that in the requirements repo
16:31:01 <cyril> ... maybe we will need separate repos per module
16:31:10 <cyril> glenn: should it be in the TTML3 repo or not
16:31:19 <cyril> ... I can see both ways
16:31:23 <cyril> nigel: same here
16:31:35 <cyril> ... in the CSS WG, they have a single CSS WG repo
16:31:47 <cyril> glenn: I think that's crazy personally, too hard to manage
16:31:48 <plh> q+
16:32:25 <cyril> plh: our tooling works better if we have one spec per repo
16:32:54 <cyril> ... I would recommend creating a new repo for TTML3
16:33:03 <cyril> ... but you would need to transfer issues
16:33:05 <cyril> glenn: I did
16:33:35 <cyril> ... the only negative I can see is since TTML3 is going to be depending on TTML2 2nd edition, it will be complicated
16:33:45 <cyril> cyril: why this dependency?
16:34:19 <cyril> glenn: we are going to have TTML3 reference TTML2
16:34:56 <cyril> [discussing fork considerations]
16:35:15 <cyril> plh: I see that TTML3 repo seems configured properly
16:35:25 <cyril> glenn: I need you to enter the deploy keys
16:35:47 <cyril> ... and the webhooks, I created them manually
16:36:07 <cyril> ... I tried to make them identical to TTML2
16:36:21 <cyril> plh: the repo manager needs to be the one setting it up
16:36:31 <cyril> ... can you write this down in an email
16:36:38 <cyril> ... and I'll do it
16:36:40 <cyril> glenn: yes
16:37:09 <cyril> Regrets+ Thierry
16:37:40 <cyril> topic: TTML in RTP IETF submission
16:38:01 <nigel> -> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sandford-payload-rtp-ttml/ IETF submission
16:38:03 <cyril> nigel: we had some interesting feedback, some of which already taken into account
16:38:20 <cyril> ... the idea of this is that it defines semantic for carrying TTML in RTP streams for live workflows
16:38:39 <cyril> ... RTP transports data over UDP
16:38:50 <cyril> ... and is used for live low latency streaming
16:38:55 <cyril> ... used by SMPTE 2110
16:39:14 <cyril> ... part of the work from BBC is to enable a 2110 for TTML
16:39:33 <cyril> ... mike provided feedback
16:39:41 <cyril> ... we have already updated
16:39:46 <cyril> ... 3 times
16:40:21 <cyril> ... also even if we have copied the media type registration it says the change controller is W3C
16:40:49 <cyril> mike: I still think it's awkward to do that
16:41:26 <cyril> ... having a 3rd copy is not a good idea
16:41:37 <cyril> ... it belongs in TTML W3C documents
16:41:56 <cyril> ... I understand and for 99% of the RTP spec it is fine, but this is a special case
16:42:20 <cyril> ... I think it should be reviewed formally by IETF experts
16:42:39 <cyril> ... the other comment is on the emphasis put on EBU-TT-D
16:42:44 <cyril> ... it's fine to have an example
16:42:56 <cyril> ... but it should at least include W3C IMSC
16:43:07 <cyril> ... it shouldn't be only EBU-TT-D
16:43:17 <cyril> nigel: I'm not sure it mentions EBU-TT-D
16:43:28 <cyril> ... I'm not clear where you see the emphasis
16:43:41 <cyril> mike: the fact that it mentions EBU only and not IMSC is the concern
16:43:59 <cyril> nigel: there is one mention of EBU TT live because it's the only profile for live
16:44:21 <cyril> ... in the most recent draft, there is an example with codec = im1t
16:44:29 <cyril> ... in 7.7.3.1
16:44:41 <cyril> ... I would recommed you look at the more recent version
16:44:56 <cyril> mike: do we as W3C log comments as a group or individuals
16:45:03 <cyril> nigel: I'm neutral on this
16:45:23 <cyril> ... IETF accepts individual contributions
16:45:27 <atai> q+
16:45:32 <cyril> ... but we can also send comments if needed
16:45:34 <pal> q+
16:45:39 <cyril> akc plh
16:45:42 <cyril> ack plh
16:45:50 <cyril> s/akc plh//
16:46:29 <cyril> atai: the discussion with other standards group on this document would be good
16:46:39 <cyril> ... sending liaison letters, collecting feedback
16:46:54 <cyril> ... another way would be to organize a call between BBC, W3C and EBU
16:47:27 <cyril> ... could nigel/bbc organize it?
16:47:33 <cyril> ... is this a good idea?
16:47:40 <cyril> ack pal
16:47:41 <nigel> q+
16:47:43 <cyril> ack atai
16:47:55 <cyril> pal: I'd like to echo andreas comment
16:48:10 <cyril> ... I'm not quite sure what are the use cases, how people will use it
16:48:16 <cyril> ... coordination between groups
16:48:24 <cyril> ... more discussions on the target use cases
16:48:59 <atai> q+
16:49:10 <mike> ack mike
16:49:25 <cyril> ... EBU TT Live can be used with other profiles IIUC
16:49:38 <mike> q+
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16:50:22 <cyril_> scribe: cyril_
16:50:34 <cyril_> nigel: this is absolutely not limited to EBU
16:50:44 <cyril_> ... and relies on the signaling of the codec
16:51:04 <cyril_> ... the use case in general is the live contribution of subtitles from an authoring environment to an encoder
16:51:14 <cyril_> ... it's not typical to use RTP for that
16:51:48 <cyril_> ... on the idea to have a session to explain what we are trying to do
16:51:57 <cyril_> ... I'll bring that to my colleague
16:52:05 <cyril_> ... not sure it's needed, but we'll see
16:52:30 <nigel> q?
16:52:32 <nigel> ack n
16:52:40 <nigel> ack at
16:52:49 <cyril_> atai: we are in a critical time
16:53:10 <cyril_> ... last week we discussed bringing live TTML to W3C
16:53:28 <cyril_> ... we have a triangle: EBU / W3C / BBC
16:53:49 <cyril_> ... if some of us have trouble understand this constellation, outsiders will have problem too
16:53:58 <cyril_> ... we should be clear on the communication
16:54:16 <mike> draft...02 says: 8.  IANA Considerations     This document makes use of the media type application/ttml+xml.  The    media types registry SHOULD be updated to make reference to this document for the application/ttml+xml media type.
16:54:19 <cyril_> ... we should not jeopardize the goal we set last week
16:54:41 <nigel> q?
16:54:46 <nigel> ack mike
16:55:13 <cyril_> mike: I posted on IRC that the latest draft is pointing the IANA to this document
16:55:45 <cyril_> mike: "media types registry" means IANA registry
16:55:49 <cyril_> ... this is very clear
16:55:59 <cyril_> nigel: I see
16:56:05 <cyril_> ... I completely agree
16:56:20 <cyril_> ... what should be updated is the TTML profile registry
16:56:29 <cyril_> ... nothing in the base IANA registry
16:57:05 <cyril_> mike: my position is that it should not be there at all, and yes this is an exception, but there is a good reason
16:57:15 <cyril_> cyril_: I agree with mike's position
16:57:24 <cyril_> nigel: I also
16:58:00 <cyril_> nigel: I feel that we have consensus for that
16:58:31 <cyril_> ... I'll make sure that comment is registered
16:58:51 <nigel> q?
16:59:22 <cyril_> glenn: I haven't read the draft RFC but can you make sure there is language that makes sure that teh codecs parameter is not capable of denoting all profiles
16:59:39 <cyril_> ... in particular since the document can embed a profile, it cannot be in the codecs parameter
16:59:49 <cyril_> ... maybe we should have a value like 'internal'
17:00:01 <cyril_> ... for embedded profile definition
17:00:28 <cyril_> nigel: maybe we want to do the opposite and say that you shall signal a profile that matches the document
17:00:43 <cyril_> ... at the moment it says 'if ...'
17:00:47 <mike> this would require an update to our existing media type definition (unrelated to the draft RFC)
17:01:41 <nigel> If signalling this processor profile in the "codecs" parameter of the media type, the registered short code for the processor profile SHOULD be combined with each other applicable processor profile using the "+" operator.
17:03:39 <nigel> scribe: nigel
17:03:55 <nigel> s/ teh / the
17:04:32 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks everyone for that feedback. I would encourage everyone to look at this document on the IETF datatracker
17:05:14 <nigel> .. and I can either collate feedback here and provide it as Chair of TTWG or you can feed back directly.
17:05:32 <nigel> .. Right now I have two items of feedback - a very clear one from Mike, and another that I will need to check back with
17:05:48 <nigel> .. Glenn on for the nuance, to make sure I've understood it correctly.
17:06:00 <nigel> .. We're out of time now so I'll adjourn. Thank you everyone! [adjourns meeting]
17:06:03 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
17:06:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/07-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:12:05 <nigel> s/we went through all of our requirements and decided if we want to go with them or not in 2019/Quick summary of last week: we went through all of our requirements and decided if we want to go with them or not in 2019
17:12:49 <nigel> s/Thank/We covered the AOB items already. Thank
17:13:29 <nigel> s/IETF, .../IETF, W3C, ...
17:14:14 <nigel> i/plh: if you are referencing a dated version/Nigel: No, this question is blocking substantive changes, we need to deal with it.
17:14:39 <nigel> s/substansively/substantively
17:16:02 <nigel> i/nigel: there is one other PR but it does not need discussion/Glenn: With that commitment I can accept this change.
17:20:23 <nigel> s/it's not typical to use RTP for that/it's not typical to use RTP for sending to client devices
17:21:03 <nigel> s/thecodecs/the codecs
17:22:19 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
17:22:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/07-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:26:03 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
17:26:04 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
17:26:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/07-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:26:41 <nigel> Present: Andreas, Cyril, Glenn, Mike, Nigel, Philippe, Pierre
17:26:42 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
17:26:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/07-tt-minutes.html nigel
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