20:56:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat
20:56:05 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/02/05-dxwgdcat-irc
20:56:18 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, make logs public
20:57:05 <DaveBrowning> meeting: DXWG DCAT Working Session teleconference 05 February 2019 - Distributions
20:57:28 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
20:57:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
20:58:01 <DaveBrowning> present+
20:58:13 <riccardoAlbertoni> riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwgdcat
20:58:22 <DaveBrowning> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2019.02.05
20:58:26 <PWinstanley> present+
20:59:31 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
20:59:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:00:03 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
21:00:49 <alejandra> alejandra has joined #dxwgdcat
21:00:49 <AndreaPerego> present+
21:01:12 <alejandra> present+
21:01:13 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
21:01:28 <riccardoAlbertoni> hello!
21:05:58 <SimonCox> SimonCox has joined #dxwgdcat
21:06:04 <SimonCox> present+
21:06:20 <DaveBrowning> https://docs.google.com/document/d/18tFkR3PP7DECjBnQjsIf0_XD8i51-UTIBPuCMtQUXyw/edit?usp=sharing
21:07:38 <alejandra> +q
21:07:51 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
21:07:59 <AndreaPerego> q+ to say we should scribe as for any other meeting
21:08:44 <PWinstanley_> PWinstanley_ has joined #dxwgdcat
21:09:34 <DaveBrowning> ack AndreaPerego
21:09:34 <Zakim> AndreaPerego, you wanted to say we should scribe as for any other meeting
21:09:42 <Makx> Makx has joined #dxwgdcat
21:09:53 <alejandra> I think we need to first discuss the set of issues to discuss within the broad topic of distributions
21:10:12 <Makx> present+ Makx
21:10:52 <DaveBrowning> scribenick: DaveBrowning
21:10:57 <alejandra> I created two github projects: one with issues related to distribution definition and relationship to profiles and the second one with Makx's set of issues related to packaging and file composition of distributions
21:11:19 <alejandra> then I suggest we use IRC as usual and the google doc for collaborative editing of the text once we reach some conclusions
21:11:31 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:11:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:11:57 <DaveBrowning> links to project with relevent issues:
21:11:57 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/projects/8
21:12:05 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/projects/6
21:13:00 <alejandra> +1
21:13:30 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #dxwgdcat
21:14:25 <DaveBrowning> Focus on definition first
21:14:43 <DaveBrowning> ...ie https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/projects/8
21:14:56 <DaveBrowning> ....which has had some recent discussion
21:15:24 <alejandra> +q to mention Clement's comment about profiles and distributions
21:15:27 <DaveBrowning> SimonCox: Original definition had this concept of a downloadable thing/file
21:16:05 <DaveBrowning> ... introduction of dataservices tighethened up the definition of distribution
21:16:55 <DaveBrowning> ... with teh idea that its a representation in REST term
21:17:10 <DaveBrowning> s/tighethened/tightened
21:17:12 <DaveBrowning> s/tighethened/tightened/
21:17:37 <AndreaPerego> s/teh idea/the idea/
21:18:04 <alejandra> The issue we are discussing is: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/317
21:18:12 <DaveBrowning> ... so what is the notion of distribution for?
21:19:09 <DaveBrowning> q+ to ask what kind of differences would be acceptable
21:19:31 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
21:19:31 <Zakim> alejandra, you wanted to mention Clement's comment about profiles and distributions
21:19:56 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/531
21:20:11 <DaveBrowning> alejandra: Rob's original issue has an echo in Clemen's question & example
21:20:59 <DaveBrowning> ... how do profiles and different distributions for teh same dataset interact>
21:21:03 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/411
21:22:12 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:22:24 <DaveBrowning> ack DaveBrowning
21:22:24 <Zakim> DaveBrowning, you wanted to ask what kind of differences would be acceptable
21:22:42 <Makx_> Makx_ has joined #dxwgdcat
21:23:12 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #dxwgdcat
21:27:32 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:27:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:28:00 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:29:09 <alejandra> +q
21:29:12 <Makx_> q+
21:29:25 <DaveBrowning> ack AndreaPerego
21:30:51 <DaveBrowning> SimonCox: Unikely to have a very hard and fast decision - will be domain (and publisher) dependent
21:31:51 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: Lots of variation in the industry
21:32:12 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
21:32:33 <DaveBrowning> ... there doesn't seem to be a defining rule
21:33:02 <Makx_> q-
21:33:26 <DaveBrowning> ... informationally equivalent is too hard a rule to be applied in every situation
21:33:49 <PWinstanley> although we are saying that we leave it to the providers, what mechanism are we providing for them to actively say that they are informationally equivalent (or not).  I'm thinking here about datasets that might be too large for people to examine in detail
21:34:02 <DaveBrowning> ... give examples of how things can be done
21:34:05 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:34:12 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
21:34:49 <DaveBrowning> alejandra: including any hard rule won't help
21:35:23 <Makx> Makx has joined #dxwgdcat
21:35:37 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:35:47 <DaveBrowning> ack riccardoAlbertoni
21:36:21 <DaveBrowning> alejandra: including additional files and information looks more valuable
21:36:48 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:37:01 <alejandra> +q
21:37:53 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: if we had examples, then we could make it clear where informationally equivalent wouldn't be useful
21:37:59 <alejandra> I think we need to consider the support for associating files to distributions
21:38:16 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:39:34 <alejandra> I think we need to move away from 'informationally equivalent' goal
21:39:44 <DaveBrowning> q+ to ask about alignment with services
21:41:15 <DaveBrowning> ack AndreaPerego
21:42:10 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: we should also try to understand what the definition is for - most data providers have a strong view...
21:42:52 <DaveBrowning> ... sometimes they will use non-equivalent distributions sometimes equivalent.  This should be informative guidance
21:43:09 <Makx> q+
21:43:16 <DaveBrowning> ... we can show how people use it
21:43:35 <DaveBrowning> ...  there is now right and wrong
21:43:41 <DaveBrowning> s/now/no/
21:44:27 <DaveBrowning> ... shouldn't over harmonize
21:44:33 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:44:37 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
21:45:07 <DaveBrowning> alejandra: Suggest we avoid informationally equivalent...
21:45:53 <DaveBrowning> ... examples only talk of formats, but we need to acknowledge other ways that distributions might differ
21:46:03 <DaveBrowning> ... suggest we vote...
21:46:05 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:46:12 <DaveBrowning> ack DaveBrowning
21:46:12 <Zakim> DaveBrowning, you wanted to ask about alignment with services
21:47:24 <alejandra> DaveBrowning: distribution concept is the access information
21:47:39 <alejandra> ... and there is no guarantee that what you are going to find is equivalent
21:47:49 <alejandra> ... you can describe it in a more precise way but you have to add all of that
21:50:36 <DaveBrowning> ack Makx
21:52:11 <DaveBrowning> Makx: Should keep the definition succinct
21:52:57 <DaveBrowning> ... it gives access to a file that gives data for the dataset
21:53:15 <PWinstanley>  ?+ to ask about machines, rather than people, and how they might 'decide' between what to select when there are choices of the same dataset
21:53:25 <alejandra> +q
21:53:30 <PWinstanley> q+
21:53:52 <DaveBrowning> ... but examples are good
21:55:37 <alejandra> q?
21:57:07 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
21:57:51 <DaveBrowning> alejandra: distribution is the representation of the data, yes
21:58:21 <DaveBrowning> ... but only gives examples of differ by format - we have practice of other differences
21:58:47 <DaveBrowning> +1 no no more info equivalence...
21:58:55 <PWinstanley> Distribution is the data, there might be choices, one might be uncleaned (full of duplicates) and the other is cleaned up.  Is there going to be any mechanism for a machine to know that there is the same information in the two?
21:59:38 <DaveBrowning> ... but we shouldn't talk about info equivalent
22:00:14 <PWinstanley> ok
22:00:37 <Makx> +1 to alejandra
22:01:23 <alejandra> proposed: we won't require different distributions to be informational equivalent and leave this as a judgement call by the data providers
22:01:29 <AndreaPerego> +1
22:01:31 <DaveBrowning> +1
22:01:34 <PWinstanley> +1
22:01:34 <alejandra> +1
22:01:36 <Makx> +1
22:01:58 <DaveBrowning> q+
22:02:07 <SimonCox> +1
22:02:27 <DaveBrowning> resolved: e won't require different distributions to be informational equivalent and leave this as a judgement call by the data providers
22:02:31 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:02:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:02:40 <alejandra> q?
22:02:48 <AndreaPerego> scribenick: AndreaPerego
22:02:56 <DaveBrowning> ack PWinstanley
22:03:03 <PWinstanley> s/e won't/we won't/
22:03:29 <Makx> q+
22:03:43 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: The second part you were mentioning, alejandra, you said we should acknowledge the different examples of distributions, right?
22:03:45 <Makx> q-
22:03:50 <DaveBrowning> ack DaveBrowning
22:03:58 <AndreaPerego> alejandra: Yep. I can write a proposal and see if people agree.
22:03:59 <alejandra> proposed: to add to the dcat:Distribution definition a mention of that they may differ in various ways, including Natural language Media-type or format Schematic organization Temporal and spatial resolution, level of detail ...
22:04:09 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
22:04:09 <AndreaPerego> ... By copying SimonCox's text :)
22:04:09 <DaveBrowning> +1
22:04:12 <PWinstanley> +1
22:04:14 <alejandra> +1
22:04:29 <AndreaPerego> +1
22:04:46 <SimonCox> +1
22:06:51 <alejandra> the current definition is" “A specific representation of a dataset. A dataset might be available in several different forms, and these forms might comprise both different serializations or different schematic arrangements of the same data. Examples of distributions include a CSV file, a netCDF file, a JSON document, or a data-cube.”
22:06:56 <Makx> 0
22:08:17 <AndreaPerego> resolved: to add to the dcat:Distribution definition a mention of that they may differ in various ways, including Natural language Media-type or format Schematic organization Temporal and spatial resolution, level of detail ...
22:08:20 <DaveBrowning> resolved: to add to the dcat:Distribution definition a mention of that they may differ in various ways, including Natural language Media-type or format Schematic organization Temporal and spatial resolution, level of detail ...
22:08:23 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:08:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:08:52 <AndreaPerego> s/resolved: to add to the dcat:Distribution definition a mention of that they may differ in various ways, including Natural language Media-type or format Schematic organization Temporal and spatial resolution, level of detail ...//
22:08:55 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:08:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:09:04 <alejandra> maybe let's check again: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/411
22:09:08 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: Any other aspects we should discuss?
22:09:21 <alejandra> and see if we can close it after addressing this?
22:11:03 <AndreaPerego> alejandra: Have we also addressed the long discussion on informational equivalence in https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/411 ?
22:11:55 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: Overall, yes, IMO the main concerns are addressed by the resolution.
22:12:28 <AndreaPerego> ... So let's move to the other aspects we mentioned.
22:13:14 <AndreaPerego> ... Let's wait to close #411 after we have revised as decided the DCAT spec.
22:13:31 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: Should we look at the other issues in sprint 1?
22:14:18 <alejandra> +q
22:14:30 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
22:14:58 <AndreaPerego> alejandra: There was a lot of discussion on the profile one, so it would sensible to see if we can reach some agreement on it.
22:15:02 <Makx> +1
22:15:02 <AndreaPerego> +1
22:15:05 <DaveBrowning> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/531
22:15:07 <SimonCox> +1
22:15:16 <DaveBrowning> +1
22:15:29 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
22:15:37 <PWinstanley> +1
22:16:05 <alejandra> most of the discussion happened here: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/317
22:16:09 <alejandra> but 531 is related
22:16:49 <AndreaPerego> [all]: They look like the same issue.
22:17:26 <AndreaPerego> alejandra: SimonCox, you say the one to be closed should be the Clemens's one, right?
22:17:47 <AndreaPerego> SimonCox: Yes, saying that this is addressed by the decision on the other one.
22:17:58 <DaveBrowning> q?
22:18:27 <Makx> q+
22:18:39 <AndreaPerego> alejandra: Actually, Clemens refers to informational equivalence, but about profiles. So, do we need to distinguish between profiles and distributions? Or I misunderstanding Clemens's point.
22:18:45 <DaveBrowning> ack Makx
22:19:00 <AndreaPerego> s/Or I /Or I'm/
22:19:40 <AndreaPerego> Makx: Yes, Clemens mentions profiles, but it is actually about different distributions (in different profiles which are not informationally equivalent).
22:20:05 <AndreaPerego> alejandra: So we can add profiles in the Google doc as one of the examples of how distributions can be different.
22:20:14 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to add "profile" on the list of the possible variations
22:21:17 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: So this looks like we can close #317
22:21:44 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:21:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:21:48 <alejandra> Moved https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/531 to 'In progress'
22:22:05 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: We still have citations and distributions.
22:22:22 <PWinstanley> yes
22:22:29 <alejandra> +q
22:23:54 <AndreaPerego> alejandra: I think what we need to do is to do the same we did for datasets. So, what you need to cite is a persistent identifier, and what should be cited  should have bib metadata (as authors, publisher, publication year).
22:23:56 <AndreaPerego> q+
22:24:16 <DaveBrowning> q?
22:24:25 <alejandra> q-
22:24:28 <AndreaPerego> alejandra: Can we assume that the authors of the dataset are the authors of the distribution?
22:24:38 <DaveBrowning> ack AndreaPerego
22:25:00 <alejandra> all was considered here: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/61
22:25:50 <alejandra> data citation principles: https://www.force11.org/datacitationprinciples
22:27:23 <alejandra> +q
22:28:00 <SimonCox> q+
22:28:06 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
22:29:47 <DaveBrowning> ack SimonCox
22:31:07 <Makx> q+
22:31:13 <AndreaPerego> [all]: [discussing on data citation approaches]
22:31:21 <DaveBrowning> ack Makx
22:31:43 <PWinstanley> +1 to Makx , AndreaPerego , SimonCox
22:31:44 <alejandra> fine by me, I agree with Andrea
22:32:04 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to let the citation on dataset
22:32:04 <DaveBrowning> +1 to not duplicating
22:32:18 <AndreaPerego> SimonCox: I'm concerned that we are making things (datasets & distributions) too similar intensionally.
22:32:24 <AndreaPerego> Makx: Same concern.
22:32:41 <PWinstanley> keep to the profile
22:32:45 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: So we need to reply to Annette.
22:33:49 <AndreaPerego> ... Who wants to do that?
22:33:54 <AndreaPerego> SimonCox: I can do that.
22:33:55 <alejandra> I can revise the whole https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/411 to see if there is anything missing or it is addressed
22:34:37 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: About https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/411 , what we decided?
22:35:20 <AndreaPerego> alejandra: I think we decided we have to review it to see if the resolution on informational equivalence is enough to address it, or there's also something else.
22:35:42 <AndreaPerego> alejandra: I can take care of that.
22:37:01 <DaveBrowning> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/projects/6
22:37:08 <Makx> q+
22:37:09 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: Should we look at these issues ^^ ?
22:37:18 <DaveBrowning> ack Makx
22:37:42 <AndreaPerego> Makx: Last week I gave a summary about a resolution could be on this.
22:38:22 <AndreaPerego> ... We could go through them.
22:38:22 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to adding the two properties
22:38:52 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: Which of these are not backward compatible?
22:39:38 <AndreaPerego> Makx: There may be implementations out there that are using mediatype for that, since there was no other option.
22:40:26 <AndreaPerego> q+
22:40:35 <DaveBrowning> ack AndreaPerego
22:41:09 <riccardoAlbertoni> s\+1 to adding the two properties\+1 to adding the two properties for compressed distributions
22:42:39 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: Seems that there's no objection to your proposal, Makx.
22:43:06 <AndreaPerego> ... So please go ahead and make a proposal.
22:43:15 <AndreaPerego> alejandra: Can you submit it as a PR?
22:43:21 <AndreaPerego> Makx: I'll try.
22:44:07 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: So, what we do now?
22:44:19 <AndreaPerego> alejandra: Maybe we plan the next sprint.
22:44:32 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: I think another key issue is the one about versioning.
22:45:09 <AndreaPerego> ... So, this can be a sensible discussion.
22:46:01 <Makx> qq+
22:46:06 <AndreaPerego> SimonCox: We have 2 options: do a lot of work, or realise we cannot do all that work, and try to address the issues to the best extent we can.
22:46:16 <Makx> qq+
22:46:19 <Makx> q+
22:46:51 <DaveBrowning> ack mak
22:46:55 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: It may be also the case that we decide that all these should go into a guidance document.
22:47:00 <DaveBrowning> ack Makx
22:47:10 <AndreaPerego> SimonCox: Would you prepare a number of options on how we can address this?
22:47:57 <AndreaPerego> Makx: We are actually not starting from scratch on versioning. I would support SimonCox's proposal not to do much. But we can pick up what we did before, at the beginning of the WG.
22:48:33 <AndreaPerego> ... I don't think we should define what versioning is, but rather, in case you have versioned data, these are the properties you can use.
22:48:53 <DaveBrowning> q+
22:49:01 <DaveBrowning> ack DaveBrowning
22:49:01 <AndreaPerego> ... Also here, we are dealing with a domain-specific problem, which is addressed in many different ways.
22:49:07 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to not define what is versioning but indicating some simple set  of  terms that can be used..
22:49:25 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: Yes, I also think we shouldn't do much, just because we don't have the time.
22:50:22 <alejandra> +q
22:50:25 <AndreaPerego> ... And to answer to SimonCox's point, I'll prepare some options.
22:50:50 <alejandra> q-
22:50:55 <AndreaPerego> DaveBrowning: About when to meet...
22:51:04 <alejandra> +1 on 2 hours for the usual DCAT subgroup slot
22:51:06 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to regular slot extended
22:51:10 <AndreaPerego> Makx: Maybe next week, normal slot.
22:51:49 <PWinstanley> we need to be on the plenary
22:51:50 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:51:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:51:55 <PWinstanley> so same slot is better
22:52:34 <riccardoAlbertoni> bye thanks
22:52:39 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:52:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:52:46 <AndreaPerego> [meeting adjourned]
22:52:51 <AndreaPerego> chair: DaveBrowning
22:52:53 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:52:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:52:53 <PWinstanley> bye
22:53:06 <alejandra> thanks all
22:53:07 <alejandra> bye
22:53:11 <PWinstanley> bye