IRC log of dxwgdcat on 2019-01-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:53:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat
20:53:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-irc
20:53:23 [DaveBrowning]
chair: DaveBrowning
20:53:45 [DaveBrowning]
meeting: DXWG DCAT subgroup teleconference 7 March 2018 21:00 UTC
20:53:59 [DaveBrowning]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:54:12 [DaveBrowning]
present+
20:55:22 [DaveBrowning]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.03.07
20:55:48 [DaveBrowning]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:55:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
20:57:51 [PWinstanley]
PWinstanley has joined #dxwgdcat
20:58:36 [PWinstanley]
PWinstanley has joined #dxwgdcat
21:00:58 [DaveBrowning]
regrets+ Riccardo
21:01:48 [AndreaPerego]
AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
21:02:13 [AndreaPerego]
present+ AndreaPerego
21:03:13 [Makx]
Makx has joined #dxwgdcat
21:03:31 [alejandra]
alejandra has joined #dxwgdcat
21:03:50 [Makx]
present+ Makx
21:04:27 [DaveBrowning]
meeting: DXWG DCAT subgroup teleconference 23 January 2019 21:00 UTC
21:04:43 [DaveBrowning]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2019.01.23
21:04:50 [DaveBrowning]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:04:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:05:24 [riccardoAlbertoni]
riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwgdcat
21:05:24 [PWinstanley]
present+
21:05:44 [SimonCox]
SimonCox has joined #dxwgdcat
21:05:57 [annette_g]
annette_g has joined #dxwgdcat
21:05:59 [alejandra]
present+
21:06:05 [riccardoAlbertoni]
present+
21:06:15 [DaveBrowning]
regrets- Riccardo
21:06:18 [DaveBrowning]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:06:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:07:40 [DaveBrowning]
regrets+ Alasdair Gray, Erik Mannens, Thomas D'Haenens, Lars Svensson
21:08:30 [DaveBrowning]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:08:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:09:29 [alejandra]
scribenick: alejandra
21:09:52 [alejandra]
https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2019.01.23
21:09:59 [annette_g]
present+
21:10:04 [alejandra]
topic: Confirm agenda
21:10:14 [alejandra]
DaveBrowning: do we need any changes?
21:10:27 [alejandra]
... we need to discuss the issue around data services
21:10:52 [alejandra]
SimonCox: there are a number of PRs that are lurking and ready to go
21:11:03 [alejandra]
... the one associated with annette_g's questions is one of those
21:11:14 [alejandra]
... so it'd be good to know if we can move forward or not
21:11:58 [alejandra]
DaveBrowning: we move this issue first?
21:12:35 [alejandra]
+1
21:12:40 [SimonCox]
https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+label%3Adcat
21:12:41 [riccardoAlbertoni]
+1
21:12:42 [alejandra]
+1 to move this issue up
21:12:51 [AndreaPerego]
+1
21:12:54 [alejandra]
topic: minutes of the last meeting
21:12:57 [AndreaPerego]
+1
21:13:09 [alejandra]
https://www.w3.org/2019/01/16-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:13:23 [SimonCox]
+1 to minutes
21:13:30 [PWinstanley]
+1
21:13:39 [Makx]
+0 was not there
21:13:40 [alejandra]
+1 to minutes
21:13:49 [riccardoAlbertoni]
+1 to minutes
21:13:54 [DaveBrowning]
+1
21:14:09 [alejandra]
resolved: minutes approved
21:14:22 [ncar]
ncar has joined #dxwgdcat
21:14:30 [alejandra]
topic: Review pull requests
21:14:32 [SimonCox]
present+
21:14:33 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:14:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:14:51 [alejandra]
https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+label%3Adcat
21:15:04 [alejandra]
+q
21:15:17 [DaveBrowning]
ack alejandra
21:15:36 [SimonCox]
q+
21:15:39 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: just to mention that I'm still working on mine - text explaining better DCAT
21:15:44 [PWinstanley]
.... I'll push very soon
21:15:54 [DaveBrowning]
ack SimonCox
21:16:22 [alejandra]
SimonCox: will this be ready in a day or two?
21:16:24 [alejandra]
alejandra: yes
21:16:59 [alejandra]
DaveBrowning: this one https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pull/682 should be a trivial
21:17:20 [alejandra]
DaveBrowning: this brings us to https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pull/656
21:17:31 [alejandra]
related to https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/432
21:17:58 [alejandra]
SimonCox: I can try and introduce the topic
21:18:24 [alejandra]
... in the F2F in Genova, we came up with a solution about major use cases and requirements around practice of people running catalogues
21:18:31 [alejandra]
... wanting to introduce services in the catalogues
21:18:51 [alejandra]
... people that had a go at this, in some cases people had use dcat:Distribution class inconsistently
21:19:04 [alejandra]
... and not following the semantics of dcat:Distribution properly
21:19:16 [alejandra]
... then we decided to go for a class for data services
21:19:31 [alejandra]
... and at some point we came up with a hierarchy of data services
21:19:49 [alejandra]
... [reading definitions of classes]
21:20:07 [alejandra]
... we have dcat:DataService and dcat:DataDistributionService
21:20:31 [alejandra]
... the reality is that most of the services that people have listed in catalogues have been DDS
21:20:40 [alejandra]
... but in my domain, not all services are DDS
21:20:55 [alejandra]
... now the detail of all of those are insufficiently common and tied down
21:21:07 [DaveBrowning]
q?
21:21:09 [alejandra]
... so we don't want to speculate on what the hierarchy might be
21:21:15 [alejandra]
... but there is a hierarchy
21:21:21 [alejandra]
... I think annette_g is asking two questions
21:21:36 [alejandra]
... wheter we can use dct:type to distinguish between services
21:21:52 [alejandra]
... and by using the word service, hiding the idea that we are talking about APIs
21:22:16 [alejandra]
... so I responded saying that DDS are common and having them would help the community
21:22:33 [alejandra]
... and having the superclass allows to extend to other service types
21:23:12 [alejandra]
... the text is very clear that the services would be some times APIs and in other cases web forms,
21:23:29 [alejandra]
... the name of the class is a token and what matters is how it is described
21:23:43 [alejandra]
+1 to the proposal in the PR
21:24:04 [alejandra]
annette_g: I'll start by addressing the question of the github PRs
21:24:14 [alejandra]
... they improve the documentation of the vocabulary as it stands
21:24:32 [alejandra]
... as somebody who is a web developer and creates APIs from time to time
21:24:46 [alejandra]
... I think what I need to describe an API
21:24:57 [alejandra]
... the distinction that we are making are not what I find the operative distinctions
21:25:12 [alejandra]
... if I'm looking for an API, I don't want to find other services
21:25:15 [alejandra]
+q
21:25:23 [SimonCox]
q+
21:25:26 [alejandra]
... I'm worried that we are not really addressing that
21:25:36 [DaveBrowning]
q?
21:25:44 [alejandra]
... I appreciate the effort of simplifying this a little bit
21:26:04 [ncar]
meeting pwd via SMS please Simon
21:26:20 [alejandra]
... I find it odd that we haven't define the services in the vocabulary
21:26:32 [alejandra]
... that's the feel I have about it
21:26:50 [alejandra]
... I cannot define how it should be done
21:26:52 [DaveBrowning]
ack alejandra
21:26:58 [alejandra]
... but mention that there is an issue
21:27:35 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: 1/ we are not describing the services themselvels- there are various ways to do this
21:27:54 [PWinstanley]
... we are looking to catalogue existing data services, whether or not it is from an API
21:28:15 [PWinstanley]
... we need to define scope and are probably not going to go further
21:28:26 [PWinstanley]
... 2/ what is missing?
21:28:59 [alejandra]
annette_g: what I think it is useful is be able to determine if something is available as a programming interface and as a graphical interface
21:29:20 [alejandra]
... the different vocabulary describing web services can kick in after knowing it is an API
21:29:35 [DaveBrowning]
ack SimonCox
21:29:38 [alejandra]
... being able to say that this is something that was intended for a programming interface is important
21:30:00 [alejandra]
SimonCox: my sense is that all the information is expressible in the vocabulary that we have in front of us
21:30:10 [alejandra]
... and with the text modifications that we've been making
21:30:21 [SimonCox]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-issue432-simon/dcat/index.html#dcat-scope
21:30:47 [alejandra]
SimonCox: figure 1 and examples in annex d3
21:30:59 [alejandra]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-issue432-simon/dcat/index.html#data-service-examples
21:31:22 [alejandra]
SimonCox: endpointDescription provides info about the endpoint
21:31:30 [alejandra]
... endpointURL is the actual address of the service
21:31:32 [PWinstanley]
q+
21:31:38 [alejandra]
... the details of all of this are going to vary
21:31:58 [DaveBrowning]
q?
21:32:03 [alejandra]
... how one describes an endpoint is out of scope, as alejandra mentioned
21:32:37 [alejandra]
... looking on the actual examples shows how to address your questions
21:32:57 [alejandra]
... and I'm struggling to see what else is needed without a proposal
21:33:15 [alejandra]
annette_g: if something has an endpointURL does not mean it is an API
21:33:36 [alejandra]
SimonCox: in most cases, web forms / human interfaces are on top of an API
21:33:45 [alejandra]
annette_g: you can distinguis the front end and the back end
21:34:17 [alejandra]
SimonCox: in many cases, the users (both people advertising this for use, and people making use of them) can identify those nuinances
21:34:33 [alejandra]
... if there is a better way of doing it, I'd like to see it
21:35:21 [alejandra]
annette_g: I guess one way to do it is to have more subclasses: DataAPI, DataForm, etc
21:35:33 [alejandra]
SimonCox: would you prepare a proposal with this?
21:35:43 [alejandra]
annette_g: I'll see if I can work on this
21:35:58 [DaveBrowning]
q?
21:36:03 [DaveBrowning]
ack PWinstanley
21:36:17 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: this concerns me, this is about publishing catalogues on the web
21:36:36 [alejandra]
... calls to datasets have to be catalogued
21:36:59 [alejandra]
... XML-rpc, jdbc, etc
21:37:05 [alejandra]
... what do we do with those?
21:37:30 [alejandra]
... when I'm documenting web APIs, I use openAPI / swagger /...
21:37:38 [alejandra]
... that can be the landing page
21:37:48 [alejandra]
... I think that is more than adequate
21:38:07 [DaveBrowning]
q?
21:38:09 [alejandra]
... I think this is nothing at all to do but providing documentation on how to access the data
21:38:19 [alejandra]
... web API is only one way
21:38:31 [alejandra]
... but there are many other ways
21:38:44 [alejandra]
annette_g: are you suggesting that we should be documenting that are not on the web?
21:39:07 [ncar]
+1 to Peter: we use DCAT for things themselves that are not on the web
21:39:08 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: yes, because we are providing a way to publish data catalogues on the web
21:39:21 [alejandra]
... not only the data sources where they are accessible
21:39:40 [ncar]
q+
21:39:50 [DaveBrowning]
ack ncar
21:40:11 [alejandra]
ncar: I agree with Peter, we have DCAT entries for things that are not on the web
21:40:27 [alejandra]
... all kinds of layers of getting at the resource that we're interested in cataloguing
21:40:40 [PWinstanley]
from the specification: " DCAT is an RDF vocabulary designed to facilitate interoperability between data catalogs published on the Web. "
21:40:50 [alejandra]
annette_g: would you see that as sibling subclasses of DataServices?
21:40:52 [alejandra]
+q
21:41:20 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: the first sentence of the DCAT spec copied above
21:41:37 [SimonCox]
I'm a bit confused about Annette's needs here - in the GitHub issue you asked for DS and DDS to be collapsed, now you are proposing more and more sub-classes.
21:41:59 [DaveBrowning]
ack alejandra
21:42:35 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: we are moving away from the discussion - we have expanded to cover *any* kind of data service
21:43:03 [PWinstanley]
... as SimonCox explained there is a need for describing DDS, and that is why this subclass was included
21:43:16 [PWinstanley]
... any other distinction can be made via extension points
21:44:02 [PWinstanley]
... there was a larger hierarchy that we discussed and stuck to the minimal
21:44:21 [PWinstanley]
... SimonCox mentioned that with different properties web APIs can be described
21:44:28 [alejandra]
annette_g: the properties are useful to describing those things
21:44:36 [alejandra]
... but it doesn't make the distinction
21:45:15 [PWinstanley]
isnt' this specific requirement for the web API something for a profile?
21:46:00 [SimonCox]
(Could Annette point to a Use Case from UCR that describes the requirements she is concerned about?)
21:46:06 [alejandra]
alejandra: what use case are you considering?
21:46:16 [alejandra]
annette_g: Andrea had one about APIs
21:46:29 [alejandra]
SimonCox: I don't think it was that specific
21:46:37 [PWinstanley]
https://www.w3.org/TR/dcat-ucr/#ID30
21:46:49 [SimonCox]
https://www.w3.org/TR/dcat-ucr/#ID18
21:47:02 [AndreaPerego]
q+
21:47:03 [PWinstanley]
q+
21:47:07 [alejandra]
annette_g: if the working group is seeking input, there are use cases that are not in there
21:47:20 [alejandra]
SimonCox: we can't allow to use cases to creep in this late in the process
21:48:16 [DaveBrowning]
ack AndreaPerego
21:48:20 [alejandra]
SimonCox: looking at the use case https://www.w3.org/TR/dcat-ucr/#ID18, I'm pretty sure we have address it
21:48:35 [alejandra]
AndreaPerego: to clarify the use case, it is more about profiles rather than services
21:48:45 [alejandra]
... how profile negotiation can be useful
21:48:54 [alejandra]
... UCR ID-30
21:48:55 [SimonCox]
that's ID30
21:49:45 [alejandra]
AndreaPerego: about ID18... my take about services is that the use case is most specific to geospatial domain
21:50:16 [alejandra]
... based on what I've been seeing is an increasing amount of catalogues of APIs
21:50:20 [alejandra]
... programmable of APIs
21:50:25 [alejandra]
... catalogue
21:50:48 [alejandra]
... France set up a public catalogue of services, Amsterdam has a catalogue with services and APIs
21:50:58 [SimonCox]
q+
21:50:58 [alejandra]
... there is an increased interest to find APIs that can do some job
21:51:16 [DaveBrowning]
q?
21:51:17 [alejandra]
... and this is why there was a proposal of having APIs/services as first class citizens
21:51:32 [DaveBrowning]
ack PWinstanley
21:52:02 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: I think the issue of having a landing page is covering the situation for a number of SPARQL endpoints that have got simplified APIs
21:52:11 [alejandra]
... web forms and shopping carts and things like that
21:52:20 [alejandra]
... end up with someone downloading a set of data
21:52:21 [SimonCox]
q-
21:52:30 [alejandra]
... prime example about having profiles
21:52:49 [DaveBrowning]
q?
21:52:51 [alejandra]
... there is going to be an extremely large range of extensions
21:53:00 [DaveBrowning]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:53:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:53:21 [alejandra]
... I see SPARQL endpoints also being data transformation and data enrichment service
21:53:26 [alejandra]
s/service/services
21:53:34 [SimonCox]
present+ ncar
21:53:54 [alejandra]
... even providing the different things that the SPARQL endpoint provides opens up complicated aspects
21:54:12 [alejandra]
... and that requires something that is tailored for what you are describing rather than a general vocabulary
21:54:19 [alejandra]
annette_g: I agree with that
21:54:28 [SimonCox]
q+
21:54:39 [alejandra]
annette_g: I'm not pushing that we try to describe APIs
21:54:44 [DaveBrowning]
q?
21:54:56 [alejandra]
... but I'm trying to get us give it first class citizenship
21:54:57 [alejandra]
+q
21:55:08 [DaveBrowning]
ack SimonCox
21:55:30 [alejandra]
SimonCox: would there be a problem with merging a PR as is, but keeping the issue open?
21:55:56 [riccardoAlbertoni]
+1 to avoid distinctions and serving a point of extensions as need to be general, and the kind of service/API can be indicated with dct:conformTo
21:56:02 [alejandra]
... you're asking for a bit more
21:56:09 [alejandra]
... and you'll endeavour to make a proposal
21:56:15 [DaveBrowning]
ack alejandra
21:57:28 [SimonCox]
Proposed: merge PR 656 to improve documentation of service hierarchy, and consider additional details in response to upcoming proposals
21:57:54 [alejandra]
+1
21:58:13 [alejandra]
alejandra: the issue of having data services as first class citizens has been done
21:58:30 [AndreaPerego]
q+
21:58:35 [DaveBrowning]
q?
21:58:46 [DaveBrowning]
ack AndreaPerego
21:58:52 [riccardoAlbertoni]
+1 to merge
21:58:57 [SimonCox]
+1 to merge
21:59:01 [PWinstanley]
+1
21:59:10 [Makx]
+1
21:59:20 [annette_g]
+1
21:59:44 [alejandra]
alejandra: distinguishing the different types of services could be hard
22:00:06 [alejandra]
AndreaPerego: having a code list would be an option and maybe better addressed by a profile
22:00:08 [ncar]
DXWG is pioneering codelist use alongside ontologies, ref Profiles Ontology & Roles codelist
22:00:16 [PWinstanley]
http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/core/#documenting-a-web-api
22:00:31 [DaveBrowning]
proposed: Merge the existing contribution, but keep the issue open to carry on the discussion
22:00:44 [annette_g]
+1
22:00:48 [PWinstanley]
Hydra is a vocabulary that might be relevant
22:00:48 [AndreaPerego]
+1
22:00:51 [DaveBrowning]
+1
22:01:03 [ncar]
+0 (uninformed)
22:01:14 [alejandra]
resolved: merge PR 656 to improve documentation of service hierarchy, and consider additional details in response to upcoming proposals
22:01:25 [SimonCox]
Thanks Annette
22:01:34 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:01:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:02:19 [Makx]
+1 cor doodle
22:02:32 [SimonCox]
Action: DaveBrowning to set up doodle for sprints
22:02:32 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
22:02:34 [alejandra]
action DaveBrowning create doodle for sprint
22:02:34 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
22:02:44 [ncar]
hi!
22:02:46 [riccardoAlbertoni]
thanks, bye...
22:02:50 [Makx]
bye
22:02:52 [alejandra]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:02:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html alejandra
22:03:26 [alejandra]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 [22:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to ge
22:03:26 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minutes v2 [22:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to ge', alejandra. Try /msg RRSAgent help
22:03:36 [alejandra]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:03:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html alejandra
22:17:33 [annette_g]
annette_g has joined #dxwgdcat