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20:53:11 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-irc
20:53:23 <DaveBrowning> chair: DaveBrowning
20:53:45 <DaveBrowning> meeting: DXWG DCAT subgroup teleconference 7 March 2018 21:00 UTC
20:53:59 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:54:12 <DaveBrowning> present+
20:55:22 <DaveBrowning> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.03.07
20:55:48 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:55:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
20:57:51 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #dxwgdcat
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21:00:58 <DaveBrowning> regrets+ Riccardo
21:01:48 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
21:02:13 <AndreaPerego> present+ AndreaPerego
21:03:13 <Makx> Makx has joined #dxwgdcat
21:03:31 <alejandra> alejandra has joined #dxwgdcat
21:03:50 <Makx> present+ Makx
21:04:27 <DaveBrowning> meeting: DXWG DCAT subgroup teleconference 23 January 2019 21:00 UTC
21:04:43 <DaveBrowning> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2019.01.23
21:04:50 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:04:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:05:24 <riccardoAlbertoni> riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwgdcat
21:05:24 <PWinstanley> present+
21:05:44 <SimonCox> SimonCox has joined #dxwgdcat
21:05:57 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dxwgdcat
21:05:59 <alejandra> present+
21:06:05 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
21:06:15 <DaveBrowning> regrets- Riccardo
21:06:18 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:06:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:07:40 <DaveBrowning> regrets+ Alasdair Gray, Erik Mannens, Thomas D'Haenens, Lars Svensson
21:08:30 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:08:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:09:29 <alejandra> scribenick: alejandra
21:09:52 <alejandra> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2019.01.23
21:09:59 <annette_g> present+
21:10:04 <alejandra> topic: Confirm agenda
21:10:14 <alejandra> DaveBrowning: do we need any changes?
21:10:27 <alejandra> ... we need to discuss the issue around data services
21:10:52 <alejandra> SimonCox: there are a number of PRs that are lurking and ready to go
21:11:03 <alejandra> ... the one associated with annette_g's questions is one of those
21:11:14 <alejandra> ... so it'd be good to know if we can move forward or not
21:11:58 <alejandra> DaveBrowning: we move this issue first?
21:12:35 <alejandra> +1
21:12:40 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+label%3Adcat
21:12:41 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:12:42 <alejandra> +1 to move this issue up
21:12:51 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:12:54 <alejandra> topic: minutes of the last meeting
21:12:57 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:13:09 <alejandra>  https://www.w3.org/2019/01/16-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:13:23 <SimonCox> +1 to minutes
21:13:30 <PWinstanley> +1
21:13:39 <Makx> +0 was not there
21:13:40 <alejandra> +1 to minutes
21:13:49 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to minutes
21:13:54 <DaveBrowning> +1
21:14:09 <alejandra> resolved: minutes approved
21:14:22 <ncar> ncar has joined #dxwgdcat
21:14:30 <alejandra> topic: Review pull requests
21:14:32 <SimonCox> present+
21:14:33 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:14:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:14:51 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+label%3Adcat
21:15:04 <alejandra> +q
21:15:17 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
21:15:36 <SimonCox> q+
21:15:39 <PWinstanley> alejandra: just to mention that I'm still working on mine - text explaining better DCAT
21:15:44 <PWinstanley> .... I'll push very soon
21:15:54 <DaveBrowning> ack SimonCox
21:16:22 <alejandra> SimonCox: will this be ready in a day or two?
21:16:24 <alejandra> alejandra: yes
21:16:59 <alejandra> DaveBrowning: this one https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pull/682 should be a trivial
21:17:20 <alejandra> DaveBrowning: this brings us to https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pull/656
21:17:31 <alejandra> related to https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/432
21:17:58 <alejandra> SimonCox: I can try and introduce the topic
21:18:24 <alejandra> ... in the F2F in Genova, we came up with a solution about major use cases and requirements around practice of people running catalogues
21:18:31 <alejandra> ... wanting to introduce services in the catalogues
21:18:51 <alejandra> ... people that had a go at this, in some cases people had use dcat:Distribution class inconsistently
21:19:04 <alejandra> ... and not following the semantics of dcat:Distribution properly
21:19:16 <alejandra> ... then we decided to go for a class for data services
21:19:31 <alejandra> ... and at some point we came up with a hierarchy of data services
21:19:49 <alejandra> ... [reading definitions of classes]
21:20:07 <alejandra> ... we have dcat:DataService and dcat:DataDistributionService
21:20:31 <alejandra> ... the reality is that most of the services that people have listed in catalogues have been DDS
21:20:40 <alejandra> ... but in my domain, not all services are DDS
21:20:55 <alejandra> ... now the detail of all of those are insufficiently common and tied down
21:21:07 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:21:09 <alejandra> ... so we don't want to speculate on what the hierarchy might be
21:21:15 <alejandra> ... but there is a hierarchy
21:21:21 <alejandra> ... I think annette_g is asking two questions
21:21:36 <alejandra> ... wheter we can use dct:type to distinguish between services
21:21:52 <alejandra> ... and by using the word service, hiding the idea that we are talking about APIs
21:22:16 <alejandra> ... so I responded saying that DDS are common and having them would help the community
21:22:33 <alejandra> ... and having the superclass allows to extend to other service types
21:23:12 <alejandra> ... the text is very clear that the services would be some times APIs and in other cases web forms,
21:23:29 <alejandra> ... the name of the class is a token and what matters is how it is described
21:23:43 <alejandra> +1 to the proposal in the PR
21:24:04 <alejandra> annette_g: I'll start by addressing the question of the github PRs
21:24:14 <alejandra> ... they improve the documentation of the vocabulary as it stands
21:24:32 <alejandra> ... as somebody who is a web developer and creates APIs from time to time
21:24:46 <alejandra> ... I think what I need to describe an API
21:24:57 <alejandra> ... the distinction that we are making are not what I find the operative distinctions
21:25:12 <alejandra> ... if I'm looking for an API, I don't want to find other services
21:25:15 <alejandra> +q
21:25:23 <SimonCox> q+
21:25:26 <alejandra> ... I'm worried that we are not really addressing that
21:25:36 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:25:44 <alejandra> ... I appreciate the effort of simplifying this a little bit
21:26:04 <ncar> meeting pwd via SMS please Simon
21:26:20 <alejandra> ... I find it odd that we haven't define the services in the vocabulary
21:26:32 <alejandra> ... that's the feel I have about it
21:26:50 <alejandra> ... I cannot define how it should be done
21:26:52 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
21:26:58 <alejandra> ... but mention that there is an issue
21:27:35 <PWinstanley> alejandra: 1/ we are not describing the services themselvels- there are various ways to do this
21:27:54 <PWinstanley> ... we are looking to catalogue existing data services, whether or not it is from an API
21:28:15 <PWinstanley> ... we need to define scope and are probably not going to go further
21:28:26 <PWinstanley> ... 2/ what is missing?
21:28:59 <alejandra> annette_g: what I think it is useful is be able to determine if something is available as a programming interface and as a graphical interface
21:29:20 <alejandra> ... the different vocabulary describing web services can kick in after knowing it is an API
21:29:35 <DaveBrowning> ack SimonCox
21:29:38 <alejandra> ... being able to say that this is something that was intended for a programming interface is important
21:30:00 <alejandra> SimonCox: my sense is that all the information is expressible in the vocabulary that we have in front of us
21:30:10 <alejandra> ... and with the text modifications that we've been making
21:30:21 <SimonCox> https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-issue432-simon/dcat/index.html#dcat-scope
21:30:47 <alejandra> SimonCox: figure 1 and examples in annex d3
21:30:59 <alejandra> https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-issue432-simon/dcat/index.html#data-service-examples
21:31:22 <alejandra> SimonCox: endpointDescription provides info about the endpoint
21:31:30 <alejandra> ... endpointURL is the actual address of the service
21:31:32 <PWinstanley> q+
21:31:38 <alejandra> ... the details of all of this are going to vary
21:31:58 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:32:03 <alejandra> ... how one describes an endpoint is out of scope, as alejandra mentioned
21:32:37 <alejandra> ... looking on the actual examples shows how to address your questions
21:32:57 <alejandra> ... and I'm struggling to see what else is needed without a proposal
21:33:15 <alejandra> annette_g: if something has an endpointURL does not mean it is an API
21:33:36 <alejandra> SimonCox: in most cases, web forms / human interfaces are on top of an API
21:33:45 <alejandra> annette_g: you can distinguis the front end and the back end
21:34:17 <alejandra> SimonCox: in many cases, the users (both people advertising this for use, and people making use of them) can identify those nuinances
21:34:33 <alejandra> ... if there is a better way of doing it, I'd like to see it
21:35:21 <alejandra> annette_g: I guess one way to do it is to have more subclasses: DataAPI, DataForm, etc
21:35:33 <alejandra> SimonCox: would you prepare a proposal with this?
21:35:43 <alejandra> annette_g: I'll see if I can work on this
21:35:58 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:36:03 <DaveBrowning> ack PWinstanley
21:36:17 <alejandra> PWinstanley: this concerns me, this is about publishing catalogues on the web
21:36:36 <alejandra> ... calls to datasets have to be catalogued
21:36:59 <alejandra> ... XML-rpc, jdbc, etc
21:37:05 <alejandra> ... what do we do with those?
21:37:30 <alejandra> ... when I'm documenting web APIs, I use openAPI / swagger /...
21:37:38 <alejandra> ... that can be the landing page
21:37:48 <alejandra> ... I think that is more than adequate
21:38:07 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:38:09 <alejandra> ... I think this is nothing at all to do but providing documentation on how to access the data
21:38:19 <alejandra> ... web API is only one way
21:38:31 <alejandra> ... but there are many other ways
21:38:44 <alejandra> annette_g: are you suggesting that we should be documenting that are not on the web?
21:39:07 <ncar> +1 to Peter: we use DCAT for things themselves that are not on the web
21:39:08 <alejandra> PWinstanley: yes, because we are providing a way to publish data catalogues on the web
21:39:21 <alejandra> ... not only the data sources where they are accessible
21:39:40 <ncar> q+
21:39:50 <DaveBrowning> ack ncar
21:40:11 <alejandra> ncar: I agree with Peter, we have DCAT entries for things that are not on the web
21:40:27 <alejandra> ... all kinds of layers of getting at the resource that we're interested in cataloguing
21:40:40 <PWinstanley> from the specification:  " DCAT is an RDF vocabulary designed to facilitate interoperability between data catalogs published on the Web. "
21:40:50 <alejandra> annette_g: would you see that as sibling subclasses of DataServices?
21:40:52 <alejandra> +q
21:41:20 <alejandra> PWinstanley: the first sentence of the DCAT spec copied above
21:41:37 <SimonCox> I'm a bit confused about Annette's needs here - in the GitHub issue you asked for DS and DDS to be collapsed, now you are proposing more and more sub-classes.
21:41:59 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
21:42:35 <PWinstanley> alejandra: we are moving away from the discussion - we have expanded to cover *any* kind of data service
21:43:03 <PWinstanley> ... as SimonCox  explained there is a need for describing DDS, and that is why this subclass was included
21:43:16 <PWinstanley> ... any other distinction can be made via extension points
21:44:02 <PWinstanley> ... there was a larger hierarchy that we discussed and stuck to the minimal
21:44:21 <PWinstanley> ... SimonCox mentioned that with different properties web APIs can be described
21:44:28 <alejandra> annette_g: the properties are useful to describing those things
21:44:36 <alejandra> ... but it doesn't make the distinction
21:45:15 <PWinstanley> isnt' this specific requirement for the web API something for a profile?
21:46:00 <SimonCox> (Could Annette point to a Use Case from UCR that describes the requirements she is concerned about?)
21:46:06 <alejandra> alejandra: what use case are you considering?
21:46:16 <alejandra> annette_g: Andrea had one about APIs
21:46:29 <alejandra> SimonCox: I don't think it was that specific
21:46:37 <PWinstanley> https://www.w3.org/TR/dcat-ucr/#ID30
21:46:49 <SimonCox> https://www.w3.org/TR/dcat-ucr/#ID18
21:47:02 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:47:03 <PWinstanley> q+
21:47:07 <alejandra> annette_g: if the working group is seeking input, there are use cases that are not in there
21:47:20 <alejandra> SimonCox: we can't allow to use cases to creep in this late in the process
21:48:16 <DaveBrowning> ack AndreaPerego
21:48:20 <alejandra> SimonCox: looking at the use case https://www.w3.org/TR/dcat-ucr/#ID18, I'm pretty sure we have address it
21:48:35 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: to clarify the use case, it is more about profiles rather than services
21:48:45 <alejandra> ... how profile negotiation can be useful
21:48:54 <alejandra> ... UCR ID-30
21:48:55 <SimonCox> that's ID30
21:49:45 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: about ID18... my take about services is that the use case is most specific to geospatial domain
21:50:16 <alejandra> ... based on what I've been seeing is an increasing amount of catalogues of APIs
21:50:20 <alejandra> ... programmable of APIs
21:50:25 <alejandra> ... catalogue
21:50:48 <alejandra> ... France set up a public catalogue of services, Amsterdam has a catalogue with services and APIs
21:50:58 <SimonCox> q+
21:50:58 <alejandra> ... there is an increased interest to find APIs that can do some job
21:51:16 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:51:17 <alejandra> ... and this is why there was a proposal of having APIs/services as first class citizens
21:51:32 <DaveBrowning> ack PWinstanley
21:52:02 <alejandra> PWinstanley: I think the issue of having a landing page is covering the situation for a number of SPARQL endpoints that have got simplified APIs
21:52:11 <alejandra> ... web forms and shopping carts and things like that
21:52:20 <alejandra> ... end up with someone downloading a set of data
21:52:21 <SimonCox> q-
21:52:30 <alejandra> ... prime example about having profiles
21:52:49 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:52:51 <alejandra> ... there is going to be an extremely large range of extensions
21:53:00 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:53:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:53:21 <alejandra> ... I see SPARQL endpoints also being data transformation and data enrichment service
21:53:26 <alejandra> s/service/services
21:53:34 <SimonCox> present+ ncar
21:53:54 <alejandra> ... even providing the different things that the SPARQL endpoint provides opens up complicated aspects
21:54:12 <alejandra> ... and that requires something that is tailored for what you are describing rather than a general vocabulary
21:54:19 <alejandra> annette_g: I agree with that
21:54:28 <SimonCox> q+
21:54:39 <alejandra> annette_g: I'm not pushing that we try to describe APIs
21:54:44 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:54:56 <alejandra> ... but I'm trying to get us give it first class citizenship
21:54:57 <alejandra> +q
21:55:08 <DaveBrowning> ack SimonCox
21:55:30 <alejandra> SimonCox: would there be a problem with merging a PR as is, but keeping the issue open?
21:55:56 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to avoid distinctions and serving a point of extensions as need to be general, and the kind of service/API can be indicated with dct:conformTo
21:56:02 <alejandra> ... you're asking for a bit more
21:56:09 <alejandra> ... and you'll endeavour to make a proposal
21:56:15 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
21:57:28 <SimonCox> Proposed: merge PR 656 to improve documentation of service hierarchy, and consider additional details in response to upcoming proposals
21:57:54 <alejandra> +1
21:58:13 <alejandra> alejandra: the issue of having data services as first class citizens has been done
21:58:30 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:58:35 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:58:46 <DaveBrowning> ack AndreaPerego
21:58:52 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1  to merge
21:58:57 <SimonCox> +1 to merge
21:59:01 <PWinstanley> +1
21:59:10 <Makx> +1
21:59:20 <annette_g> +1
21:59:44 <alejandra> alejandra: distinguishing the different types of services could be hard
22:00:06 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: having a code list would be an option and maybe better addressed by a profile
22:00:08 <ncar> DXWG is pioneering codelist use alongside ontologies, ref Profiles Ontology & Roles codelist
22:00:16 <PWinstanley> http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/core/#documenting-a-web-api
22:00:31 <DaveBrowning> proposed:  Merge the existing contribution, but keep the issue open to carry on the discussion
22:00:44 <annette_g> +1
22:00:48 <PWinstanley> Hydra is a vocabulary that might be relevant
22:00:48 <AndreaPerego> +1
22:00:51 <DaveBrowning> +1
22:01:03 <ncar> +0 (uninformed)
22:01:14 <alejandra> resolved:  merge PR 656 to improve documentation of service hierarchy, and consider additional details in response to upcoming proposals
22:01:25 <SimonCox> Thanks Annette
22:01:34 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:01:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:02:19 <Makx> +1  cor doodle
22:02:32 <SimonCox> Action: DaveBrowning to set up doodle for sprints
22:02:32 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
22:02:34 <alejandra> action DaveBrowning create doodle for sprint
22:02:34 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
22:02:44 <ncar> hi!
22:02:46 <riccardoAlbertoni> thanks, bye...
22:02:50 <Makx> bye
22:02:52 <alejandra>  RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:02:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html alejandra
22:03:26 <alejandra> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 [22:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to ge
22:03:26 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minutes v2 [22:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to ge', alejandra.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
22:03:36 <alejandra> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:03:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html alejandra
22:17:33 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dxwgdcat