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16:41:38 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/01/15-pbg-irc
16:41:39 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
16:41:39 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
16:41:39 <ivan> Chair: luc
16:41:39 <ivan> Date: 2019-01-15
16:41:39 <ivan> Agenda: [https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2019Jan/0001.html](https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Dec/0001.html)
16:41:40 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-01-15: [https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2019Jan/0001.html](https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Dec/0001.html)
16:41:41 <ivan> Regrets+ cristina, jensklingelhoefer, yoshii
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16:58:29 <laudrain> present+
16:58:49 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
16:59:51 <wendyreid> present+
17:00:48 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbg
17:00:51 <jeff> present+
17:01:05 <Dan_Sanicola> Dan_Sanicola has joined #pbg
17:01:23 <Dan_Sanicola> present+
17:01:29 <dauwhe> present+
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17:02:33 <liisamk> present+
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17:03:02 <ivan> present+
17:03:08 <garth> present+ Garth
17:03:23 <laurent_> laurent_ has joined #pbg
17:03:24 <jeff> scribenick: jeff
17:03:29 <laurent_> present+
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17:03:59 <tzviya> present+
17:04:02 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbg
17:04:24 <rkwright> rkwright has joined #pbg
17:04:31 <jeff> chair: LMK
17:04:34 <Avneesh> present+
17:04:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
17:04:51 <jeff> LMK: We have received Rick Johnson's resignation as co-chair of BG
17:04:59 <jeff> ... stepping away from W3C and membership
17:05:27 <jeff> ... opening up candidacy for 3rd co-chair
17:05:34 <jeff> Topic: PBG Chair change
17:05:45 <jeff> LMK: Announcement was made in SC
17:05:49 <jeff> ... some are aware
17:06:00 <jeff> ... Daihei Shiohama is a candidate
17:06:07 <jeff> ... supported by me and Luc
17:06:23 <jeff> Daihei: I'm honored to be here and (electronically) see you
17:06:28 <jeff> ... I accept candidacy
17:06:35 <jeff> ... I want to work with Liisa and Luc
17:06:47 <jeff> ... make progress in BG and with WGs
17:06:55 <jeff> ... sent intro email yesterday
17:07:08 <jeff> ... Japanese, live in San Diego, travel a lot to Japan
17:07:11 <jeff> ... work with APL
17:07:22 <jeff> ... established by Keio and 4 major Japanese publishers
17:07:58 <jeff> ... Top execs of APL (e.g. Murai-sensei) and CEOs (e.g. Kodansha) agree with my candidacy
17:08:10 <jeff> ... so I officially represent Japanese publishing industry
17:08:38 <jeff> ... would like to work with other Asian publishers
17:08:45 <jeff> ... and work with US and Europe
17:08:51 <jeff> ... 1 global publishing market
17:09:17 <jeff> ... Japan successful with EPUB 3
17:09:29 <jeff> ... I want to make publishing in W3C work better and contribute
17:09:33 <laudrain> q?
17:09:39 <jeff> LMK: Thank you, Daihei.
17:10:08 <jeff> ... will leave this open for a week
17:10:12 <jeff> ... see if other candidates
17:10:17 <jeff> ... if so - move to a vote
17:10:18 <jeff> q+
17:10:25 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
17:10:25 <Zakim> Present: laudrain, wolfgang, wendyreid, jeff, Dan_Sanicola, dauwhe, liisamk, ivan, Garth, laurent_, tzviya, Avneesh, Bill_Kasdorf
17:10:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see rkwright, Bill_Kasdorf, Avneesh, laurent_, garth, liisamk, Dan_Sanicola, Daihei, laudrain, jeff, Karen, wolfgang, RRSAgent, Zakim, tzviya, ivan, dauwhe, Rachel,
17:10:28 <Zakim> ... wendyreid, dmitry, bigbluehat
17:10:30 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
17:10:44 <laudrain> q+
17:10:47 <dauwhe> jeff: I'm inspired by Daihei's remarks about making a global publishing community
17:10:51 <ivan> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
17:10:54 <jeff> ack je
17:10:56 <jeff> ack l
17:11:08 <ivan> present+ rkwright
17:11:09 <jeff> Luc: Do we need a specific mail about the process
17:11:29 <ivan> present+ daihei
17:11:39 <ivan> present+ mateus
17:11:40 <jeff> ... explain resolution - "if no other candidate then Daihei is the 3rd co-chair"
17:11:51 <ivan> present+ wolfgang
17:11:51 <liisamk> q+
17:12:02 <laudrain> ack liisamk
17:12:12 <jeff> LMK: Agree that we send an email this week.
17:12:18 <jeff> ... I will draft it.
17:12:22 <jeff> LA: Perfect.
17:12:27 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
17:12:27 <Zakim> Present: laudrain, wolfgang, wendyreid, jeff, Dan_Sanicola, dauwhe, liisamk, ivan, Garth, laurent_, tzviya, Avneesh, Bill_Kasdorf, rkwright, daihei, mateus
17:12:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see rkwright, Bill_Kasdorf, Avneesh, laurent_, garth, liisamk, Dan_Sanicola, Daihei, laudrain, jeff, Karen, wolfgang, RRSAgent, Zakim, tzviya, ivan, dauwhe, Rachel,
17:12:31 <Zakim> ... wendyreid, dmitry, bigbluehat
17:12:41 <ivan> present+ Rachel
17:12:51 <jeff> Topic: EPUBcheck development and fundraising
17:12:54 <jeff> LA: Development on schedule
17:13:07 <jeff> EPUBcheck 4.2 available for test
17:13:21 <jeff> ... alpha for checking EPUB 3.2
17:13:28 <jeff> ... some issues
17:13:34 <jeff> ... but running well and on time.
17:13:51 <ivan> -> alpha release announcement: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2019Jan/0005.html
17:13:51 <jeff> ... Fundraising: a bit more than half the goal in 2018
17:14:09 <jeff> ... should renew comms on fundraising
17:14:16 <jeff> ... allow Daisy to continue for next phases
17:14:23 <jeff> ... All people in PBG should help
17:14:53 <laudrain> q?
17:14:53 <jeff> ... so renew call for fundraising for epubcheck
17:15:15 <jeff> LMK: List of contacts?
17:15:38 <jeff> Topic: from PWG on WP for audiobooks
17:15:46 <jeff> WR: Short update
17:15:54 <jeff> ... audiobooks is waiting on decision on packaging
17:15:56 <Rachel> epubcheck outreach tracker: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iAGhd99aVhXAUCQwITWZwAHARQbnSet9IUFTj_DbqdM/edit#gid=0
17:16:02 <jeff> ... leaning towards OCF light
17:16:19 <jeff> ... Dave Singer says we should look at @@@
17:16:21 <jeff> ISO based
17:16:32 <jeff> ... could be used for audiofiles
17:16:42 <jeff> ... success criteria this week
17:16:51 <jeff> ... for audio + WP in general
17:16:55 <laudrain> EPUBCheck fundraising call, list of companies to conttact https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iAGhd99aVhXAUCQwITWZwAHARQbnSet9IUFTj_DbqdM/edit#gid=0
17:16:57 <jeff> ... then first draft of audio spec
17:17:04 <jeff> ... looking for co-editor
17:17:25 <jeff> ... looking for feedback
17:17:27 <wolfgang> s/@@@/HEIF/
17:17:31 <laudrain> q?
17:17:37 <laudrain> q+
17:17:58 <jeff> LA: Audiolink is a big company for audiobooks
17:18:02 <jeff> ... 60% of market
17:18:08 <jeff> ... we will prepare feedback
17:18:10 <jeff> ack l
17:18:16 <laudrain> s/Audiolink/Audiolib/
17:18:16 <wolfgang> s/Audiolink/Audiolib/
17:18:23 <liisamk> q+
17:18:26 <ivan> s/Audiolink/Audiolib/
17:18:49 <jeff> LMK: Timeframe or wish for audio?
17:18:54 <jeff> WR: Wish is 2019
17:18:56 <tzviya> q+
17:18:57 <ivan> q+
17:19:00 <jeff> ... first draft by summer
17:19:04 <ivan> ack liisamk
17:19:06 <liisamk> ack liisa
17:19:07 <jeff> ... more solid by end of year
17:19:09 <ivan> ack tzviya
17:19:12 <jeff> TS: +1 to Wendy
17:19:24 <jeff> ... looking at putting together goals and timelines
17:19:41 <jeff> IH: Wendy, we need to discuss further
17:19:48 <jeff> ... Draft ASAP is good
17:19:48 <dauwhe> q+
17:19:53 <garth> s/HEIF/HEIF (High Efficiency Image Foramt)/
17:20:09 <jeff> ... Taking testing into account, we should have a first draft very, very soon
17:20:10 <wolfgang> s/Foramt/Format/
17:20:21 <garth> q?
17:20:21 <jeff> WR: even sooner if possible
17:20:26 <jeff> ack iv
17:20:27 <ivan> ack ivan
17:20:51 <jeff> speaker??: Fits with our F2F in Boston
17:20:51 <garth> q?
17:21:01 <garth> s/speaker??/Garth:/
17:21:03 <jeff> Dave: Slight concerns
17:21:05 <laudrain> s/speaker/Garth/
17:21:08 <wolfgang> s/speaker??/Garth/
17:21:27 <jeff> ... work on audio should not box ourselves into corner wrt other requirements
17:21:33 <jeff> ... should have explainer
17:21:37 <jeff> ... TAG review
17:21:43 <jeff> ack da
17:22:09 <jeff> Topic: EPUB 3.2 in REC track
17:22:30 <jeff> LMK: Last year discussions
17:22:39 <jeff> ... as a community we do not have consensus
17:22:55 <jeff> ... whether REC track; when REC track; testing; changes in spec
17:22:58 <dauwhe> q+
17:23:08 <jeff> ... WG concerns that waiting for testing takes it out of scope
17:23:21 <jeff> ... In Friday SC call, proposed that CG work on testing for some period of time
17:23:26 <jeff> ... Time-box it
17:23:40 <jeff> ... WG does not work on 3.2 REC track at this point.
17:23:57 <jeff> ... discuss again at TPAC 2019
17:24:04 <jeff> ... comments?
17:24:06 <garth> +1
17:24:16 <jeff> ack da
17:24:32 <jeff> DC: I am now opposed to putting 3.2 on REC track
17:24:44 <jeff> ... eventually yes, but not now
17:24:51 <jeff> ... need roadmap
17:25:02 <jeff> ... EPUB an aspect of WP
17:25:11 <jeff> ... don't see as much value
17:25:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to dauwhe
17:25:25 <jeff> ... constraints; pressure not to change anything
17:25:32 <laudrain> +1
17:25:39 <jeff> ... but testing is important
17:25:45 <laudrain> q+
17:25:45 <wolfgang> +1 to dauwhe
17:25:45 <garth> q?
17:25:50 <garth> q+
17:25:56 <jeff> ... spec needs to be clearer and better
17:26:04 <liisamk> q+
17:26:12 <liisamk> ack laud
17:26:12 <jeff> LA: +1 to Dave
17:26:26 <jeff> ... resolutions says testing should be time boxed
17:26:32 <jeff> ... CG could work on it.
17:26:47 <jeff> ... gather known bugs
17:27:03 <jeff> ... checker very soon
17:27:26 <Avneesh> +1 to SC recommendation
17:27:31 <jeff> ... communications around epub2
17:27:58 <jeff> ... March/April announce that EPUB 3.2 is final
17:28:03 <jeff> ... checker is ready
17:28:09 <dauwhe> q+
17:28:13 <jeff> ... how do you see time frame for testing?
17:28:28 <jeff> ... end in spring; extended to year-end.
17:28:36 <Daihei> +1 to Luc
17:29:00 <tzviya> q+
17:29:01 <Julian_Calderazi> Julian_Calderazi has joined #pbg
17:29:04 <Julian_Calderazi> present+
17:29:08 <jeff> Dave: Testing on longer time line
17:29:10 <Julian_Calderazi> Sorry for being late
17:29:22 <jeff> ... past final CG report
17:29:40 <jeff> LA: Should include this in resolution
17:30:00 <liisamk> ack gar
17:30:03 <jeff> GC: +1 to Luc
17:30:08 <jeff> ... agree with Dave
17:30:36 <jeff> ... epub3.2 is already tighter than preceding versions
17:31:06 <jeff> ... when epubcheck is ready for 3.2 we should figure out how to give 3.2 report formality
17:31:25 <jeff> ... "this is epub now"
17:31:31 <laudrain> +1
17:31:51 <jeff> ... in March
17:31:56 <jeff> ack lii
17:32:01 <dauwhe> ack dauwhe
17:32:03 <jeff> LMK: We should give time for testing
17:32:12 <jeff> ... but we should know our status before TPAC
17:32:20 <jeff> ... propose we complete testing by August
17:32:32 <jeff> DC: I am not focused on stopping testing
17:32:41 <jeff> ... we don't finish
17:32:46 <jeff> ... since we don't have end goal
17:33:03 <jeff> ... learning about spec, implementations, clarify in spec
17:33:16 <jeff> ... concede that this is ambiguous
17:33:20 <jeff> ... no other way
17:33:34 <jeff> TS: We need to define goals of testing
17:33:42 <jeff> ... and what we do with results
17:33:51 <jeff> ... now only Dave is doing the work
17:34:01 <laudrain> q+
17:34:02 <jeff> ... if it leads to changes will this go into 3.3.
17:34:08 <dauwhe> q?
17:34:11 <liisamk> ack tzv
17:34:11 <dauwhe> ack tz
17:34:11 <jeff> ... or just WP?
17:34:14 <dauwhe> q?
17:34:18 <liisamk> ack lau
17:34:21 <jeff> ... changes to epubcheck
17:34:31 <jeff> LA: I would be concerned if we continued to move
17:34:34 <garth> q+
17:34:51 <jeff> ... should include bug reporting
17:34:58 <jeff> ... features not well implemented
17:35:14 <jeff> ... reassure community
17:35:41 <jeff> ... encouraged that CG is considering issues
17:36:16 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
17:36:29 <jeff> ... considering implementations
17:36:53 <jeff> GC: Testing will continue after 3.2 is done
17:36:58 <jeff> ... lead to bugs
17:37:06 <jeff> ... have a 3.2.1 (bug fixes)
17:37:24 <jeff> ... 3.3 or 3.5 with substantive work is open for debate
17:37:30 <jeff> ... or does it go to WG
17:37:35 <jeff> ... longer term discussion
17:37:38 <liisamk> ack gar
17:37:44 <jeff> ... but 3.2.1 in 2019 is ok
17:38:01 <jeff> BK: Goal of testing will advise us on outcomes
17:38:07 <jeff> ... clarification of spec
17:38:11 <liisamk> + 1 to Garth and Bill
17:38:19 <jeff> ... or need for 3.2.1
17:38:25 <jeff> ... or need for 3.3.
17:38:32 <jeff> ... decide that when we see results of testing.
17:38:38 <liisamk> q+
17:38:42 <liisamk> ack bill
17:38:42 <dauwhe> ack Bill
17:38:52 <jeff> LMK: +1 Bill
17:39:08 <jeff> ... as testing continues, BG checks in and provides view of market needs
17:39:46 <dauwhe> q?
17:39:46 <wendyreid> q+
17:39:47 <jeff> BK: Yes, we should have goals, but articulated as per the above
17:39:49 <dauwhe> ack li
17:40:10 <jeff> LA: CG + PBG share this goal
17:40:43 <jeff> WR: I am a reading system and a QA professional
17:40:53 <garth> q+
17:40:56 <jeff> ... doesn't make sense to publish, then test, then publish a 3.2.1
17:40:59 <ivan> ack wendyreid
17:40:59 <dauwhe> q+
17:41:05 <jeff> ... this is not ad hoc - people will follow this
17:41:12 <jeff> ... we are undermining ourselves
17:41:17 <jeff> ... understand March goal
17:41:43 <jeff> ... if we can get testing done we get something more reliable
17:41:47 <jeff> ... need more resources
17:41:53 <jeff> ... noone wants changing after the fact
17:42:10 <wolfgang> s/noone/no one/
17:42:13 <jeff> q?
17:42:21 <liisamk> ack garth
17:42:27 <ivan> ack garth
17:42:35 <jeff> GC: We've had confusion with 3.1 and 3.0.1
17:42:45 <jeff> ... work on 3.2 and its testing have tightened it
17:43:07 <jeff> ... so we have time pressure to resolve incompatibilities
17:43:15 <jeff> ... stick to March
17:43:19 <jeff> ... doing minor fixes
17:43:29 <Avneesh> q+
17:43:33 <jeff> ... 3.2 ASAP
17:43:38 <laudrain> +1 to Garth
17:43:49 <jeff> ... not negative to do a 3.2.1
17:44:07 <Daihei> ack garth
17:44:09 <jeff> ... need substantive result of merger with W3C
17:44:10 <liisamk> ack dau
17:44:19 <jeff> DC: EPUB3 is pretty mature
17:44:29 <jeff> ... widely implemented and widely used
17:44:43 <jeff> ... testing is uncovering bugs in reading systems
17:44:51 <jeff> ... (does not affect spec)
17:45:24 <jeff> ... I've been finding small ambiguities in extreme corner cases
17:45:34 <jeff> ... will not change existing reading system or content
17:45:52 <jeff> ... [vertical bar example]
17:46:27 <jeff> ... these will accumulate over time
17:46:37 <jeff> ... not concerned about that
17:46:45 <jeff> ... EPUB relatively stable
17:47:05 <liisamk> ack Avne
17:47:16 <jeff> Avneesh: 1. Garth and Dave have explained good
17:47:21 <jeff> ... we need to be on track
17:47:28 <jeff> ... compatibility with 3.1
17:47:35 <jeff> ... near zero changes.
17:47:44 <jeff> 2. Governance
17:47:53 <jeff> ... SC recommendation
17:47:59 <jeff> ... needs an email to BG
17:48:07 <liisamk> s/3.1/3.0.1
17:48:10 <jeff> ... governance in hands of BG.
17:48:17 <jeff> ... 72 hours to object.
17:48:19 <garth> q?
17:48:27 <laudrain> Q+
17:48:27 <ivan> +1 to Avneesh
17:48:34 <liisamk> ack laud
17:48:46 <jeff> LA: Do we push the resolution as is
17:49:04 <jeff> ... or revise with (a) testing timeframe and (b) what to do with results of testing
17:49:25 <jeff> ... do we stick with TPAC as the date?
17:49:57 <jeff> ... REC track synchronized with chartering WG in 2020?
17:50:05 <jeff> ... Comments on dates in resolution?
17:50:09 <jeff> q?
17:50:19 <jeff> IH: Currently expires in June
17:50:35 <jeff> LA: Charter has timeline which includes EPUB4
17:51:23 <jeff> ... we could simply say resolution as is
17:51:41 <jeff> ... BG discussing REC track at TPAC
17:51:41 <Julian_Calderazi> +1
17:51:44 <jeff> ... agre?
17:51:44 <liisamk> +1
17:51:50 <jeff> x/agre/agree/
17:51:55 <ivan> +1
17:51:56 <Avneesh> revist EPUB 3.2 rec track can be written as Q4 of 2019
17:51:58 <garth> +1
17:52:20 <jeff> Topic: PBG Priorities for 2019
17:52:22 <wolfgang> s/revist/revisit/
17:52:30 <laudrain> Proposed resolution: The CG will work on testing for <defined time period>. The WG will not work on EPUB 3.2. Test results will inform work on potential revisions of EPUB and possibly on WP. The BG will discuss REC track again at TPAC.
17:52:36 <jeff> LMK: What do we as a BG want to accomplish this year?
17:53:00 <Daihei> +1
17:53:05 <laudrain> +1
17:53:13 <jeff> q+
17:53:16 <tzviya> q+
17:53:17 <laudrain> q+
17:53:28 <liisamk> ack jeff
17:53:33 <dauwhe> jeff: I look at today's agenda
17:53:41 <dauwhe> ... to the extent that it's representative
17:53:55 <dauwhe> ... a lot of the agenda is focused on grinding through the work that has to get done
17:54:07 <dauwhe> ... but not putting a lot of focus on popularizing EPUB and the industry
17:54:10 <dauwhe> ... driving more adoption
17:54:20 <dauwhe> ... making the value proposition to people
17:54:29 <dauwhe> ... I spoke to several people
17:54:46 <dauwhe> ... the reason they don't want to continue is that they are not seeing enough business focus in the BG
17:54:53 <dauwhe> ... and that's why they were IDPF members
17:55:05 <dauwhe> ... they just see us enmeshed in technical issues
17:55:34 <dauwhe> ... I would propose that some of the priorities would be about focusing on that business content
17:55:38 <jeff> TS: +1 to Jeff
17:55:50 <jeff> ... in WG we often have questions about business needs
17:55:56 <jeff> ... e.g. audio books
17:56:16 <jeff> ... testing and their effects need BG focus
17:56:27 <ivan> q+
17:56:32 <ivan> ack tzviya
17:56:35 <jeff> ... e.g. if a bug has ramifications on business, we need to hear it.
17:56:45 <jeff> LA: +1 to TS and JJ
17:56:52 <jeff> ... time to reconsider how we work
17:56:59 <jeff> ... how we think about business
17:57:14 <jeff> ... Daihei + LMK + myself cover the geos
17:57:21 <jeff> ... consider business questions
17:57:26 <jeff> ... could better prepare the calls
17:57:30 <jeff> ... fewer calls
17:57:49 <jeff> ... the Chairs +(maybe Ivan) should think about business subjects
17:57:54 <Daihei> ack Luc
17:58:01 <jeff> ack la
17:58:18 <jeff> s/+(/(+/
17:58:27 <jeff> ... so we restructure with focus on business
17:58:37 <jeff> IH: Go beyond what Tzviya said
17:58:59 <jeff> ... audiobooks has core (manifest)
17:59:07 <jeff> ... specific part of publishing
17:59:19 <jeff> ... audiobooks is first good "profile"
17:59:31 <jeff> ... have superficially discussed other profiles
17:59:51 <jeff> ... visual narratives, manga, ...
17:59:59 <jeff> ... consider educational, music
18:00:12 <jeff> ... but need business background
18:00:15 <jeff> ack iv
18:00:32 <jeff> ... need feedback from BG
18:00:54 <jeff> ... sorry to be long
18:01:00 <jeff> Topic: NY meeting
18:01:14 <jeff> TS: A week from tomorrow is a publishing + AB meeting
18:01:20 <jeff> ... should have received invitation
18:01:24 <jeff> ... please RSVP
18:01:27 <jeff> ... to me
18:01:35 <jeff> ... look forward to seeing you
18:01:39 <jeff> LMK: Thanks
18:01:43 <jeff> LA: Thanks
18:01:51 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:01:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/15-pbg-minutes.html ivan
18:01:51 <ivan> zakim, bye
18:01:51 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
18:01:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
18:01:51 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been laudrain, wolfgang, wendyreid, jeff, Dan_Sanicola, dauwhe, liisamk, ivan, Garth, laurent_, tzviya, Avneesh, Bill_Kasdorf,
18:01:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
18:01:53 <jeff> DS: Thanks
18:01:54 <Zakim> ... rkwright, daihei, mateus, Rachel, Julian_Calderazi