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16:38:14 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
16:38:14 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
16:38:14 <ivan> Chair: Wendy
16:38:14 <ivan> Date: 2019-01-14
16:38:14 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2019Jan/0004.html
16:38:14 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-01-14: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2019Jan/0004.html
16:38:15 <ivan> Regrets+ Tim_Cole
16:42:03 <tzviya> Chair: Tzviya
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16:57:40 <ivan> present+
16:57:48 <Rachel> present+
16:58:03 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
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16:58:30 <ivan> present+ wendyreid
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16:58:59 <gpellegrino> present+
16:59:03 <ivan> present+ luc
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17:00:23 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
17:00:23 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose wolfgang
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17:00:34 <ivan> present+  NickRuffilo
17:00:40 <wolfgang> scribenick: wolfgang
17:00:43 <CHayes> present+
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17:02:38 <wolfgang> Topic 1: Approve minutes
17:02:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
17:02:41 <bigbluehat> present+
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17:02:46 <NickRuffilo> present+
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17:03:05 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2019/2019-01-07-pwg
17:03:06 <wolfgang> Chair: Tzviya
17:03:08 <mateus> present+
17:03:23 <wolfgang> resolution: minutes approved
17:03:24 <ivan> resolved: last week's minutes approved
17:03:44 <wolfgang> Topic 2: Remembering Robin Seaman
17:03:50 <tzviya> https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/Obituary/article/78970-obituary-robin-seaman-68.html
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17:04:05 <BenSchroeter> present+
17:04:18 <CharlesL> present+
17:04:30 <BenSchroeter> +1
17:04:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
17:04:39 <mgarrish> present+
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17:04:40 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
17:04:58 <wolfgang> tzviya: last week Robin Seaman from Benetech passed away - amazing person - we will miss her tremendously - changed the world by her devotion to accessible publishing
17:05:28 <wolfgang> BillK. she put her heart and soul to a11y guide
17:05:50 <CharlesL> Thanks everyone, yes we will
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17:06:13 <dauwhe> s/BillK./Bill_Kasdorf:/
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17:06:28 <wolfgang> Topic 3: Scope and Revision of WP Document
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17:07:01 <franco> franco present+
17:07:02 <Teenya> present+
17:07:05 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/blob/master/explainers/wpub-explainer.md#modularity
17:07:07 <marisa> present+
17:07:12 <josh> present+
17:07:12 <lsullam> present+
17:07:23 <wolfgang> tzviya: slimming down WP spec - shifting affordances to UCR doc - focus on metadata - then focus on modules
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17:07:34 <duga> present+
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17:07:52 <garth> present+ Garth
17:07:57 <wolfgang> ... first module Audiopubs, then it might be mangas/comic books, scholar, education
17:08:11 <wolfgang> ... details will go to modules
17:08:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
17:08:31 <ivan> https://gist.github.com/iherman/1311da6cde8e564eb44036c7caf863d1#file-wg_scope-md
17:09:19 <wolfgang> ivan: I have written down my thoughts - see link above!
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17:10:18 <wolfgang> ... only 1 year left according to charter - we don't have too much time - we will have to establish a focus from now on - we had a hard core (the WP Manifest)
17:10:44 <dauwhe> q?
17:10:50 <wolfgang> ... open issues are minor - the core sense of spec is to collect the metadata
17:11:29 <dauwhe> q+
17:11:42 <wolfgang> ... we potentially have a number of profiles as specialized layers on top - may describe specific behaviours for special domains - audiobooks may be a first profile
17:12:25 <wolfgang> ... profiles are WPs that may be deployed on the Web - deployment in browsers may require specialized scripts -
17:13:00 <wolfgang> ... packaging should be generally useful for all profiles
17:13:39 <wolfgang> ... current WP doc: title should be changed - remove affordances sections to UCR
17:14:17 <tzviya> q+ to discuss use cases and affordances
17:14:26 <wolfgang> ... we should revisit affordances and use cases doc - should it perhaps be a note? - separation of use cases and affordances?
17:14:49 <wolfgang> ... separate spec for audio profile - should have a draft very soon
17:15:22 <wolfgang> ... have a document for the packaging format we use now - need a decision on that
17:15:53 <wolfgang> ... REC track for WP manifest and Audio profile
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17:16:39 <tzviya> regrets+ George_Kerscher
17:17:29 <wolfgang> ... for a longer term - charter runs out in June 2021 - shall we continue? - we would then need a new charter - further topics for profiles: visual narrative, scholarly/educational, music, ...
17:18:18 <wolfgang> ... web packaging - follow the further development
17:18:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
17:18:49 <wolfgang> ... not discuss now whether it continues EPUB line or replaces EPUB
17:18:50 <laudrain> q?
17:19:16 <wolfgang> ... we have to decide on the scope for the presentation to the TAG
17:20:06 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:20:06 <wolfgang> tzviya: Ivan's overview is excellent, but immediate focus on explainer doc and wp doc - we need to clean things up, to get them aligned
17:20:44 <wolfgang> ... feedback on explainer @dauwhe?
17:21:40 <tzviya> q?
17:21:43 <wolfgang> dauwhe: explainer as crictical document, esp. for TAG review - not sure that inconsistencies between explainer and wp draft matter too much for TAG review
17:21:45 <tzviya> ack tzviya
17:21:45 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to discuss use cases and affordances
17:22:59 <ivan> q?
17:23:04 <ivan> q+
17:23:11 <wolfgang> tzviya: if we try to coordinate too many things, it may get confusing. affordances/use case document should be cleaned up and be separate from wp spec.
17:23:11 <garth> q?
17:23:11 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:23:12 <dauwhe> q+
17:24:13 <wolfgang> ivan: whether draft should be synchronized with explainer? would prefer to synchronize these 2 docs
17:24:51 <wolfgang> ... explainer doesn't really say where we are going - what are our goals? -
17:25:26 <wolfgang> tzviya: adding a section on goals to explainer - I offer to write the goals up
17:25:27 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:25:41 <wolfgang> dauwhe: also ready to help in this effort
17:27:20 <Avneesh> q+
17:27:24 <ivan> regrets+ george
17:27:26 <wolfgang> ... we have got real trouble with affordances - there are so many different kind of publications which aren't all on the Web - focusing on the core bits of metadata could be very valuable for us - I would like to use that data model to describe EPUB
17:27:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to dauwhe
17:27:58 <geoffjukes> +1 dauwhe
17:28:19 <wolfgang> ... I would suggest that we would have varying vocabulary for different domains - maybe also different packaging formats for diverse needs
17:28:30 <ivan> q+
17:28:35 <dauwhe> https://github.com/dauwhe/pdm/
17:28:46 <wolfgang> ... core data model that may be serialized and packaged in different ways
17:29:04 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
17:30:19 <tzviya> ack iv
17:30:22 <wolfgang> Avneesh: conceptually, this makes sense - delimit the scope because time is restricted - we have gone little beyond the core - what are we restricting, do we strecth to sth else?
17:30:53 <wolfgang> ivan: so far we only thought of moving the affordances section
17:31:38 <wolfgang> ... some types of contributors that are only relevant for audiobooks - most of the statements may stay where they are
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17:32:28 <dauwhe> q+
17:32:42 <wolfgang> ... data model: I'm scared to go down the line Dave proposed - seeing the time, it would be dangerous to revisit the data model
17:33:10 <tzviya> q+
17:33:37 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:33:49 <wolfgang> ... one important message: data model based on existing standards (schema.org) - don't see necessity of revising our data model - would be an enormous amount of work
17:34:19 <wolfgang> dauwhe:concerned to use deadlines and time as basis for design choices
17:34:53 <wolfgang> ivan: we decided in Lyon to take out the abstract info model in favour of JSON-LD
17:35:56 <tzviya> ack tz
17:35:58 <wolfgang> dauwhe: Blackstone use case - an HTML serialization is much more complicated than needed - can we explain EPUB as an aspect of our larger work on publications
17:36:31 <ivan> q+
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17:37:06 <laurent_> q+
17:37:10 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:37:13 <zheng_xu> present+ zheng_xu
17:37:18 <wolfgang> tzviya: Dave's 2 points are pretty meaningful - it integrates EPUB - scary to state that EPUB is totally different from WP - it's very valuable to work with schema.org, but we should not rule out other possibilities
17:37:22 <ivan> q+
17:37:26 <tzviya> ack laurent_
17:37:27 <ivan> ack laurent_
17:38:31 <wolfgang> Laurent_: too late to revise data model now - Blackstone: where HTML entry page is not used being too heavy - sufficient to state that HTML entry page is optional -
17:38:52 <wolfgang> ... we must move on and finalize what we are working until now
17:38:54 <tzviya> ACK ivan
17:40:04 <wolfgang> ivan: a lot of groups in a similar situation did: publish a note with the abstract model (in sync with the JSON-LD serialization)
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17:40:26 <tzviya> q+ to ask why it would be a mistake
17:40:28 <dauwhe> q+
17:40:42 <wolfgang> ... JSON-LD WG will work on a version serializing YAML in JSON-LD - not started yet
17:40:47 <tzviya> ack tzviya
17:40:47 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask why it would be a mistake
17:41:41 <wolfgang> tzviya: we decided to simplify at TPAC by what's wrong with an abstract data model?
17:42:06 <laurent_> q+
17:42:53 <wolfgang> ivan: we defined an abstract model and serialized it in JSON-LD - documenting the data model independently from the syntax used for serialization would be OK
17:42:56 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:43:59 <tzviya> ack laurent_
17:44:17 <wolfgang> dauwhe: we should describe the components to build different kinds of publications - moving affordances out from spec is a good first step - I would be more radical
17:44:44 <bigbluehat> q+
17:45:15 <dauwhe> q+
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17:45:32 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
17:45:37 <wolfgang> Laurent_: very different affordances also dependent on UA - schema.org provides a model and different serializations - we chose JSON-LD - how would be describe the data model - UML? waste of time
17:46:28 <bigbluehat> https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/#introduction
17:46:31 <ivan> q+
17:47:15 <wolfgang> Benjamin: publication is a linear progression of these items - web annotation data model included a brief explanation how we modelled this - trivial and small, but essential to understanding the following
17:47:25 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:48:23 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:48:25 <wolfgang> dauwhe: map our terms to other vocabularies - "readingOrder" = "spine" in EPUB
17:49:28 <wolfgang> ivan: my proposal: we make a separate document/note on the data model
17:49:42 <garth> q?
17:50:27 <wolfgang> tzviya: scope is to refine the WP doc - strip out affordances, refine manifest
17:50:33 <ivan> q+
17:50:41 <wolfgang> ... more volunteers on affordances neede
17:50:43 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:51:13 <wolfgang> ... WP doc should only define Manifest and metadata
17:51:19 <wendyreid> +1 to both
17:51:21 <garth> +1
17:51:25 <tzviya> +1
17:51:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
17:51:29 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
17:51:35 <wolfgang> ... audiopubs as stand-alone module
17:51:57 <ivan> q+
17:52:04 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:52:24 <wolfgang> Bill_Kasdorf: Will all future modules have REC status and won't contradict each other?
17:52:38 <wendyreid> q+
17:52:47 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
17:52:47 <wolfgang> ... will they be consistent?
17:53:29 <Avneesh> q+
17:53:33 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
17:53:39 <wolfgang> wendyreid: there should be communication with the PWG and all use the manifest
17:53:58 <ivan> q+
17:54:23 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:54:25 <wolfgang> Avneesh: if only one module the core spec may be screwed to fit that single module - we should have more than on module in parallel
17:54:25 <laudrain> q?
17:54:28 <wendyreid> +1
17:55:02 <dauwhe> q+
17:55:10 <wendyreid> q+
17:55:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/screwed/skewed
17:55:11 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:55:11 <wolfgang> ivan: +1 to Avneesh - it make sense to have a further module
17:55:30 <wolfgang> dauwhe: demanding an EPUB module
17:55:35 <laudrain> EPUB 4?
17:55:39 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
17:55:45 <Avneesh> "skewed"
17:56:37 <wolfgang> wendyreid: more than one module makes it easier to distinguish core and module
17:57:17 <wolfgang> tviya: dave and me will revise explainer, we need to revise UCR, matt will concentrate on spec
17:57:34 <wolfgang> s/tviya:/tzviya:/
17:58:07 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:58:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/14-pwg-minutes.html ivan
17:58:07 <ivan> zakim, bye
17:58:07 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
17:58:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:58:07 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been ivan, Rachel, wolfgang, tzviya, wendyreid, gpellegrino, luc, simon_collinson, NickRuffilo, CHayes, romain, jbuehler, dauwhe,
17:58:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg
17:58:10 <Zakim> ... laurent_, dkaplan, Avneesh, rkwright, Bill_Kasdorf, bigbluehat, mateus, BenSchroeter, CharlesL, mgarrish, Teenya, marisa, josh, lsullam, duga, Garth, zheng_xu